If you're already high value there's no need to demonstrate it.

[Urbanyst]

Converse Chuck Taylor's have been hugely popular and many well to do people wear them as one example. But according to the high value proponents men should dress up in three piece suits, top of the line shoes, 50,000 watches to pick up chicks on POF to convey "high value" or go everywhere dressed to the nines at all times as if somehow no one else will be dressed the same way going to an event, work, etc.

You wear nice shoes to events, work, weddings, social events, parties that require a dress code like that, clubs with the same requirements. There is such a thing as being over dressed. You don't show up to a BBQ or beach outing wearing a tux and gators.

This is what I mean.

There is a time and place for shoes. But shoes are not connected to sex appeal at all. They will help in the same way good cologne will help. But to say it's essential to attracting women is totally absurd.

 

[BeExcellent]

I agree with you. My point is there are so many other factors that matter more than shoes. A guy who focuses on shoes over more important factors is kidding himself.

For instance, I would focus more on having a nice place to live and disposable income over having the "it" shoes in style at the moment.

Promoting shoes is like promoting a certain haircut as being essential to getting women. It's putting the cart before the horse.

I hear you. I really do. But shoes are an easy thing to upgrade...shoot, go to Century 21 or Filene's Basement & you can get a better pair for the same money elsewhere. The better digs in NYC is much more expensive than shoes. Heck, find a stylish woman or a hot woman & elict her help (even if you don't think you need help)...voila...meet a hot chick & get shoes that say the right thing about you to women...total two-fer.

 

[Atom Smasher]

I agree with you. My point is there are so many other factors that matter more than shoes. A guy who focuses on shoes over more important factors is kidding himself.

For instance, I would focus more on having a nice place to live and disposable income over having the "it" shoes in style at the moment.

Promoting shoes is like promoting a certain haircut as being essential to getting women. It's putting the cart before the horse.

You seem to be mixing up two different planes of attraction.

When a man starts talking to a woman on the street, she has no idea of his "nice place" nor of his disposable income.

She only has a handful of things by which to judge a man. She looks at his face, she hears him speak, and she looks at his shoes along with his general body language and style of clothing. These are her determining factors whether or not she will accept or reject him.

The other factors come later. By the way, a man who presents himself sharply and confidently with his clothing and demeanor absolutely does not need a nice house nor disposable income. He can pull her heart strings before those things ever make it to the table.

I would think that men would be encouraged that they don't need a fat bank account nor luxurious living quarters to attract women.

You're not even in the game unless you present yourself with confidence and flair. A woman will overlook a multitude of sins when a man can make her tingle with his presence and confidence. One of the primary ways that a man conveys that is through his clothing. "Clothing makes the man" as the saying goes.

My advice to men is to dress neatly and with a touch of flair, wear nice shoes and find out just how receptive women can be before a man's possessions even come into play. These simple things are the gateway to her interest, not your house or bank account.

I would in fact say that putting a house and disposable income ahead of personal presentation is indeed putting the cart miles ahead of the horse in terms of attraction.

Earn the house and the income for yourself. Present yourself to the world with a look that indicates self-respect and see what that does for you in terms of garnering respect and admiration.

 

[Urbanyst]

You seem to be mixing up two different planes of attraction.

When a man starts talking to a woman on the street, she has no idea of his "nice place" nor of his disposable income.

She only has a handful of things by which to judge a man. She looks at his face, she hears him speak, and she looks at his shoes along with his general body language and style of clothing. These are her determining factors whether or not she will accept or reject him.

The other factors come later. By the way, a man who presents himself sharply and confidently with his clothing and demeanor absolutely does not need a nice house nor disposable income. He can pull her heart strings before those things ever make it to the table.

I would think that men would be encouraged that they don't need a fat bank account nor luxurious living quarters to attract women.

You're not even in the game unless you present yourself with confidence and flair. A woman will overlook a multitude of sins when a man can make her tingle with his presence and confidence. One of the primary ways that a man conveys that is through his clothing. "Clothing makes the man" as the saying goes.

My advice to men is to dress neatly and with a touch of flair, wear nice shoes and find out just how receptive women can be before a man's possessions even come into play. These simple things are the gateway to her interest, not your house or bank account.

I would in fact say that putting a house and disposable income ahead of personal presentation is indeed putting the cart miles ahead of the horse in terms of attraction.

Earn the house and the income for yourself. Present yourself to the world with a look that indicates self-respect and see what that does for you in terms of garnering respect and admiration.

I'm not mixing anything up. You are just not getting my point.

If you pay attention to your own post you will realize you actually agree with me. You said a man that dresses well attracts women, not a man with nice shoes. And that is my entire point. Dressing well is a package. A package is many factors. Some factors are more important than others. Its not all about shoes. You need the package or the shoes don't matter.

 

[playa99]

This thread piqued my interest enough to post!

Being 'high value' as a man is the culmination of character traits that lead to you being successful.

A 'high value' man can be flat broke & rise again, because of who he is. A valuable man is still valuable regardless of his monetary situation.

I would argue that the key characteristics of a valuable man are as follows:

• Confidence/ self belief.
• Self-respect.
  
• Passion for life
  
• Determination.
  
• Ability to lead.
• People skills.
  
• Emotional control.
  
• Has a concrete goal in life.

Having the above traits is no guarantee of success. It does not mean that you kill it with the ladies. It means that you have the correct mindset for success & being valuable.

When you have the correct mindset, you display value naturally through your actions. It is a natural process rather than scripted.

In developing the correct mindset, you will act confident even though you are not. You will develop your people skills & so on. The scripted eventually comes naturally.The fact that you are here shows you want to improve.

This mindset also isn't absolute, it can be lost. You lose this mindset when you let things happen to you as opposed to making them work for you.

You can lose confidence, your people skills can get rusty etc. The key is forward momentum.

When you have attained success in life, you automatically show value through your actions.

 

[Atom Smasher]

I'm not mixing anything up. You are just not getting my point.

If you pay attention to your own post you will realize you actually agree with me. You said a man that dresses well attracts women, not a man with nice shoes. And that is my entire point. Dressing well is a package. A package is many factors. Some factors are more important than others. Its not all about shoes. You need the package or the shoes don't matter.

Trust me, I am getting your point. You seem to be positively obsessed with embellishing my initial simple point, and I'm content to leave it at that.

For the guys here who are thinking clearly, the point is that women apply greater weight to the condition of your shoes than any other part of your attire. Clean, neat shoes with old jeans and an old shirt will be forgiven and overlooked. Nice pants, nice shirt and dirty, won-out shoes is usually a disqualifier.

 

[Urbanyst]

Trust me, I am getting your point. You seem to be positively obsessed with embellishing my initial simple point, and I'm content to leave it at that.

For the guys here who are thinking clearly, the point is that women apply greater weight to the condition of your shoes than any other part of your attire. Clean, neat shoes with old jeans and an old shirt will be forgiven and overlooked. Nice pants, nice shirt and dirty, won-out shoes is usually a disqualifier.

Only low value disqualifies you.

If you get as far as having a one on one conversation with a woman, the shoes no longer matter assuming you are high value.

Trying to impress women with materialism is an activity low value men engage in. If a high value man is materialistic, it is because he actually loves nice things, fancy shoes, etc. This is why some rich men (Mark Zuckerberg) dress like they just got out of bed, while other rich men dress flashy.

If you are buying nice shoes, it should be because you like nice shoes, not because women like nice shoes.

 

[Atom Smasher]

You are correct. If you get as far as having a one on one with a woman, the shoes NO LONGER matter.

 

[BeExcellent]

I disagree slightly that shoes no longer matter. Once or if you are in a relationship with a woman your presentation becomes a reflection on not only yourself but on the other person you go out with...just as your woman's presentation is a reflection on you.

It is very subtle but women read it instantly. When I was married my husband and I would regularly attend various functions from children's birthday parties (replete with pony rides, petting zoos, Chinese New Year performances & open bars for the adults) to charity events, to black tie events to casual (but important) social events. My ex owns two tuxedos of his own (if you are going to attend black tie things regularly you should invest in a good tuxedo) and the shoes for that were quite simple...but where he struggled the most in his personal presentation was at casual events.

He tended to dress in a good casual shirt, good jeans or shorts and he would want to wear running shoes or tennis shoes. He was more interested in comfort than aesthetic.

So he would ruin his presentation (and by association MY presentation) with inappropriate footwear. We actually had fights over this because I eventually refused to leave the house with him looking like he didn't know how to dress.

Over time he came to appreciate the whole shoe thing...although he still wants to wear tennis shoes with shorts when a sandal (even a good quality flip flop) or a loafer or driving shoe or casual athletic shoe like a Van or a Samba would be better. But I give up. At least he doesn't do running shoes any more unless he is actually going running!

It's funny. The other day the artist I'm seeing showed up in a nice shirt, good jeans and heavy white leather tennis shoes. This is a guy who drives a hand built Porsche from the 60's and does interior design among other things. Apparently he's not gay.

I thought "oh boy - not this again" in amusement to myself...but he is not my boyfriend at this point so I shall keep my opinion to myself. Comments regarding personal taste (or lack thereof) are prickly topics and if they are to be addressed at all they must be addressed in the most delicate manner. Far better if a man has enough wherewithal that such conversations never need occur.

I take great care with my appearance and style of dress in order to reflect well on men who I go out with. I truly appreciate a man who has enough experience to do the same for me.

 

[mikey2012]

Retarded post is retarded.

You might have a super saiyan level of high value but if no one sees it, it means nothing in the moment.

People aren't going to recognise value unless they can see it. I might own the club and every property on the street but if I'm sat in a corner with a pair of torn jeans and ripped trainers then the guy in the leased suit using his rent money to pop bottles is going to have higher value than me to 99 percent of women in that environment. Perception matters. That's why for better or for worse appearance is paramount to ones success as a DJ.

Agreed dumb post.

 

[ChristopherColumbus]

Converse Chuck Taylor's have been hugely popular and many well to do people wear them as one example. But according to the high value proponents men should dress up in three piece suits, top of the line shoes, 50,000 watches to pick up chicks on POF to convey "high value" or go everywhere dressed to the nines at all times as if somehow no one else will be dressed the same way going to an event, work, etc.

You wear nice shoes to events, work, weddings, social events, parties that require a dress code like that, clubs with the same requirements. There is such a thing as being over dressed. You don't show up to a BBQ or beach outing wearing a tux and gators.

A good point, but that is where 'taste' comes in... as a previous poster pointed out. It would be in just as much poor taste to be over-dressed as to be under-dressed for some occasion. Being over-dressed looks try-hard, and reflects poorly on your character and your judgement. Having good taste leads you to be appropriately dressed.

Actually, I'd suggest that 'taste' is the most important quality that a lot of people lack today. It is difficult to put in objective terms, and requires something of a sixth sense. It is linked to aesthetic appreciation.

 

[ChristopherColumbus]

You seem to be mixing up two different planes of attraction.

When a man starts talking to a woman on the street, she has no idea of his "nice place" nor of his disposable income.

She only has a handful of things by which to judge a man. She looks at his face, she hears him speak, and she looks at his shoes along with his general body language and style of clothing. These are her determining factors whether or not she will accept or reject him.

The other factors come later. By the way, a man who presents himself sharply and confidently with his clothing and demeanor absolutely does not need a nice house nor disposable income. He can pull her heart strings before those things ever make it to the table.

I would think that men would be encouraged that they don't need a fat bank account nor luxurious living quarters to attract women.

You're not even in the game unless you present yourself with confidence and flair. A woman will overlook a multitude of sins when a man can make her tingle with his presence and confidence. One of the primary ways that a man conveys that is through his clothing. "Clothing makes the man" as the saying goes.

My advice to men is to dress neatly and with a touch of flair, wear nice shoes and find out just how receptive women can be before a man's possessions even come into play. These simple things are the gateway to her interest, not your house or bank account.

I would in fact say that putting a house and disposable income ahead of personal presentation is indeed putting the cart miles ahead of the horse in terms of attraction.

Earn the house and the income for yourself. Present yourself to the world with a look that indicates self-respect and see what that does for you in terms of garnering respect and admiration.

Yep, a simple clean cut of classic clothes plus a splash of cologne will do wonders for any man in securing that initial interest.

 

[ChristopherColumbus]

One can argue that clean shoes or a nice house don't matter, but the question is "Why would you do that to yourself? Isn't it your innate nature to live like a king? Do you suffer from lack of self reverence?"

The virtues [from vir... man... where we also get virile] lie in moderation.

 

[Atom Smasher]

I disagree slightly that shoes no longer matter. Once or if you are in a relationship with a woman your presentation becomes a reflection on not only yourself but on the other person you go out with...just as your woman's presentation is a reflection on you.

It is very subtle but women read it instantly. When I was married my husband and I would regularly attend various functions from children's birthday parties (replete with pony rides, petting zoos, Chinese New Year performances & open bars for the adults) to charity events, to black tie events to casual (but important) social events. My ex owns two tuxedos of his own (if you are going to attend black tie things regularly you should invest in a good tuxedo) and the shoes for that were quite simple...but where he struggled the most in his personal presentation was at casual events.

He tended to dress in a good casual shirt, good jeans or shorts and he would want to wear running shoes or tennis shoes. He was more interested in comfort than aesthetic.

So he would ruin his presentation (and by association MY presentation) with inappropriate footwear. We actually had fights over this because I eventually refused to leave the house with him looking like he didn't know how to dress.

Over time he came to appreciate the whole shoe thing...although he still wants to wear tennis shoes with shorts when a sandal (even a good quality flip flop) or a loafer or driving shoe or casual athletic shoe like a Van or a Samba would be better. But I give up. At least he doesn't do running shoes any more unless he is actually going running!

It's funny. The other day the artist I'm seeing showed up in a nice shirt, good jeans and heavy white leather tennis shoes. This is a guy who drives a hand built Porsche from the 60's and does interior design among other things. Apparently he's not gay.

I thought "oh boy - not this again" in amusement to myself...but he is not my boyfriend at this point so I shall keep my opinion to myself. Comments regarding personal taste (or lack thereof) are prickly topics and if they are to be addressed at all they must be addressed in the most delicate manner. Far better if a man has enough wherewithal that such conversations never need occur.

I take great care with my appearance and style of dress in order to reflect well on men who I go out with. I truly appreciate a man who has enough experience to do the same for me.

I agree with you 100%. I was pointing out to someone that strictly in terms of initial attraction, the shoe issue no longer matters because at that point the woman is talking with you and she hasn't rejected him wholesale because of the shoes. She's essentially giving the guy a temporary pass in spite of his decision to present himself poorly.

Presentation matters in life, and it matters a lot. Shoes most certainly stand out apart from all other attire as a metric as to how a person feels about their own presentation.

If a man wears crappy looking shoes in a relationship, that is certain to be a point of irritation for the woman, even if she doesn't say anything. I believe that is entirely reasonable.

When I myself see a woman with worn, sloppy shoes, this speaks volumes to me.

 

[Atom Smasher]

My basic point however also is that high value men will understand congruence.

[snip]

Never underestimate that at all times your appearance and minute details of your appearance silently broadcast who you are and what you're about to the world.

Shallow? Perhaps. But only a clod would handicap himself once having this knowledge.

And thusly a clod would be identified by his presentation (whether he is ignorant or not), and categorized accordingly.

Why handicap oneself in this way?

All very true, though I would say that it's not shallow at all, but is rather an accurate metric. Clothing condition reflects the mental state of the wearer, just as the way a man keeps his car and his living quarters reflect his inner state.

Generally speaking, it's not about the money spent, but rather the care one takes in presentation. Even if a guy wears very inexpensive clothing and shoes, others will subconsciously give him props for being neatly put together.

 

[ChristopherColumbus]

Thomas Carlyle's 'Sartor Resartos' is a must read in this matter. It is a whole philosophy based on clothes.

 

[Urbanyst]

I disagree slightly that shoes no longer matter. Once or if you are in a relationship with a woman your presentation becomes a reflection on not only yourself but on the other person you go out with...just as your woman's presentation is a reflection on you.

It is very subtle but women read it instantly. When I was married my husband and I would regularly attend various functions from children's birthday parties (replete with pony rides, petting zoos, Chinese New Year performances & open bars for the adults) to charity events, to black tie events to casual (but important) social events. My ex owns two tuxedos of his own (if you are going to attend black tie things regularly you should invest in a good tuxedo) and the shoes for that were quite simple...but where he struggled the most in his personal presentation was at casual events.

He tended to dress in a good casual shirt, good jeans or shorts and he would want to wear running shoes or tennis shoes. He was more interested in comfort than aesthetic.

So he would ruin his presentation (and by association MY presentation) with inappropriate footwear. We actually had fights over this because I eventually refused to leave the house with him looking like he didn't know how to dress.

Over time he came to appreciate the whole shoe thing...although he still wants to wear tennis shoes with shorts when a sandal (even a good quality flip flop) or a loafer or driving shoe or casual athletic shoe like a Van or a Samba would be better. But I give up. At least he doesn't do running shoes any more unless he is actually going running!

It's funny. The other day the artist I'm seeing showed up in a nice shirt, good jeans and heavy white leather tennis shoes. This is a guy who drives a hand built Porsche from the 60's and does interior design among other things. Apparently he's not gay.

I thought "oh boy - not this again" in amusement to myself...but he is not my boyfriend at this point so I shall keep my opinion to myself. Comments regarding personal taste (or lack thereof) are prickly topics and if they are to be addressed at all they must be addressed in the most delicate manner. Far better if a man has enough wherewithal that such conversations never need occur.

I take great care with my appearance and style of dress in order to reflect well on men who I go out with. I truly appreciate a man who has enough experience to do the same for me.

Is your main point that women value style over substance (or maybe just you)?

This might be a surprise but not everyone is materialistic or big into fashion and trends. Women included.

I don't think I could even date a woman who valued name brands and clothes too much. It means you are more of a sheep than an individual. Sure, people should look presentable, but some people take it too far and it becomes a shallow clown show.

 

[BeExcellent]

My point is that style matters because your style is an indicator of taste.

Apparently you need an extreme example. Ever go to an interview with dirty hair or wrinkled clothing? Why not?

Because companies judge how you will represent them out in the world. Companies don't hire people who are rumpled & need a bath.

My step brother worked for years at what used to be Arthur Anderson. He is 6'4" and once weighed about 350 pounds. He is extremely smart & was angling for an upper management role.

You'll never imagine what his superiors told him...he was told his (obese) appearance did not convey an image in line with what the company values IN AN EXECUTIVE ROLE. They told him he was too fat to be considered for an upper management role! He was plenty smart but his presentation was not up to snuff.

Guess what. He lost 125 lbs and after that he got the VP level position. He never gained the weight back and would be the first one to tell you how you present yourself matters.

There is no shame in having nice things. I presume your dream car is not a 2012 Corolla. I think it is fun to find nice things for very little money relative to retail. I also think labels for the sake of labels is unrefined and garish.

You see clothing in particular carries a subtext as I mentioned earlier. When your appearance is all someone has to go by your appearance needs to say the right things about you as in the interview example I gave above. This is the point you are being obtuse about.

You don't think a woman in the know doesn't recognize Allen Edmond brogues or Gucci loafers or bespoke alligator shoes? Quality has a certain refinement. Get a GQ or Vanity Fair and look through it. If you think that makes me somehow a snob then it just indicates to me you aren't at that level of sophistication. Sophisticated people identify other sophisticated people who they do not already know on style and mode of dress. Grooming and hygiene as well...that should go without saying. Dirty fingernails or bad breath will ruin your impression faster than anything else no matter how beautifully dressed you are.

I appreciate fine things and I can afford such things. However there are lots of things I can't afford, like a Malibu beach house...but I would never run down my friend who lives in a Malibu beach house. I just think it's cool he has one and think it's cool that we are pals.

I like what I like, I do what I do and I could not give a rats rear end what anybody thinks about it. I REALLY don't care.

But for some of the men here who want to obtain the best they can who didn't grow up with taste, manners and style as something you were taught to recognize & value...it can be hard to learn the subtext, the unspoken things that personal flair conveys. Some people have taste and many more do not, but humans tend to gravitate toward "Tastemakers".

So if you start learning and understanding matters of taste and style you put yourself head and shoulders above the masses. And this can be done without going to great expense. In fact it's MORE interesting to pull it off without paying full freight. This will give you advantages with women, in the workplace, among your peers.

Or you can call me a snob & take pot shots. IDGAF. I am already doing just fine. Tell ya what. You're an NYC dude right? Go to Union Square Cafe or head to Balthazar's in the Village...or go to the Oak Bar in the Plaza. Have a drink at the bar. Go see for yourself what the high end men wear and how you do. See if they talk to you. And wear good shoes.

 

[9Volt]

All the shoe droppers and fashion mag reading try hards need to talk that high value conveyance to Michael Bloomberg who owns six pairs of shoes. Kenneth Cole.

 

[BeExcellent]

I have a pair of Kenneth Cole cap toes. Very stylish, very comfortable.

Good men's shoes have cork in them. Super comfy. Wish womens shoes had that (well outside of platform wedges)