stubborness in modern dating

[Glassguy]

I am definitely taking notes on the content of this thread.

I grew up thinking chase the girl until you get her. Funny thing is not only does it come off as desperate and needy but its also unrealistic to think that you could get the girl doing this in most scenarios.

Before first date: I reach out, spit game, set something up.

After first date: I wait a few days to get in contact with ole girl, i get straight to the point and set something else up.

After second date: I make contact a few days later just to check in but I don't make contact after that. I wait for her to contact me first. I belive in trading off. This weeds out those who aren't truly interested. If she doesn't contact me then on to the next one.

Thoughts?

1.) How many of those girls did you get that you chased? I will guess zero.

2.) Rules rules rules. Too many rules. Do what YOU want. Do you want to call her the next day? Send her a text letting her know you had a good time? Then do it.

As long as she gets the impression that you will WALK and put high value on yourself, do what you want. If you have to follow rules to spike a chick's interest because she is a game player too, it clearly will have a shelf life and be short lived.

Honestly, if you are spinning several plates, you will be spreading the attention love and wont feel like you have to entertain one chick anyways.

 

[Bingo-Player]

Sure, but when you are being natural you are not thinking about all these things as if you were in some romantic version of The Game of Thrones. There's an oxymoron.

No, you are just in the moment, and doing your manly thing.

Case in point; this evening, girl in front of me at the cafe was taking ages to order thanks to cards, computers, and electronic discounts etc. Being a bit impatient, I kind of made my presence felt, then turned it into a joke with the girl about why you need cash [I'd seen her in that cafe before]. We chatted a bit while waiting for our coffees. I took mine to a seat, and noticed she in turn sat down a few tables away. I felt the rapport had been good enough for me to go over and invite her to join me. She did, had a great chat, got the number. Simples.

Getting the number was kind of polite/ expected. I will not text her, but just say hello again when I happen to see her next. Chat, and maybe ask her out directly.

yea this i find easy , i dont have a problem chatting to chicks getting numbers and building attraction for sex

its when they go away and start thinking i find the problems start

 

[AttackFormation]

ive date and fvcked enough women to know by now that if you want one long term you HAVE to see her as equal or the attraction just dies

You don't think it's gonna die off anyway?

 

[l_e_g_e_n_d]

Interesting to hear the females POV on this

It would seem from the opinions they shared the man should take the lead and she will respond positively if she’s interested

That’s fair enough I can understand that, but the male is still being put in a situation where he is under immense pressure to lay all his cards on the table without coming across as too available AND dont forget he still has to keep his own emotions under control whilst doing this

Even if by some miracle the male is experienced and strong enough to be able to do all this, he STILL risks being blown out by some unforeseen circumstance such as a date going wrong or an ex boyfriend popping up

It isn’t difficult to see why romance has died nothing is allowed to be natural anymore because nobody wants to risk being made to look like a fool

Case example :

I meet a girl I like we flirt and exchange numbers

I initate contact as I am a man and am “required” to make the first move , chick responds positively ok great, but conversation HAS to end sooner rather than later in order for either party not to come across as too interested and scare the other side off

So conversation is shut down ……..now who initiates the next contact

Me again I suppose !?! ok fine I feel I shouldn’t really because right now I am at like 60% effort by initiating yet another conversation and she’s at 40% simply waiting & having to respond “positively”

So I wait a couple of days and initiate again and she responds positively again but the conversation again has to end on that day to keep up the charade

So conversation is shut down again ……now for me this is crunch time at this point she HAS to reach out and initiate with me otherwise I am going up to like 70% effort and she’s going down to 30% this is too far and I feel it opens the door for game playing

But if she feels as though I need to make that third initiation ( and more) to show im interested and prepared to “work” for her

then we enter said Mexican standoff point ......

i feel it is literally easier to obtain casual sex with a stranger than it is to play through this phase with someone you like .......

thoughts please @sazc @BeExcellent

This is ridiculous. I've bedded 100+ women and here is how it goes 90% of the time:

• You initiate, make convo, get the number;
• You call/text and arrange a date;
• You go out on date and try to lay her;
• If no lay on first date, you call/text again and schedule a second date;
• You go out on date and try to lay her;
• If no lay on second date, you call/text again and schedule a third date;
• You go out on date and try to lay her;
• If no lay on third date, ascertain whether you are sexually progressing with each date and whether this girl is wasting your time a/k/a meeting your needs or merits a NEXT.

Once you lay her, you can ease back. Simple.

 

[BeExcellent]

My recommendation is always basically what @l_e_g_e_n_d just laid out.

Man reaches out/asks out...woman responds. You observe, calibrate and decide if you are going to contact & ask out again...as above.

Where it gets wacky is when people start overthinking and worry about stuff like "wow she didn't respond for 3 hours" or "she isn't texting out of the blue" or for the women "wow I haven't heard from him" or "wow his response seemed pretty clipped"...etc and on and on ad nauseum.

Women are more in depth than NFL Primetime breaking down the game amongst their girlfriends. I had NO idea men did this too until several years into my marriage and my husband was like "oh God yes men overthink TONS of stuff"... I was like who knew?

And all the analysis is a huge contributor to the problem.

Add to that the matter that when you are infatuated on top of over analyzing things...keeping a clear head & good judgement is tough!!!

Over thinking is always out of insecurity. Over thinking is always some level of script creation and mental fantasy (mental masturbation). Men AND women are guilty of this.

Men (in my humble opinion) should do what suits them just as suggested above by Legend, @ChristopherColumbus and others on other threads. Ignore what the female does or doesn't say...pay attention to her responses.

Women will make it easy for a guy she likes.

Ignore what she says, watch how she responds to you. But take the initiative for pete's sake.

Expecting women to take the male role confuses everybody...and in the long run men do not want women who take the male role.

 

[icantgetlaid]

This is ridiculous. I've bedded 100+ women and here is how it goes 90% of the time:

• You initiate, make convo, get the number;
• You call/text and arrange a date;
• You go out on date and try to lay her;
• If no lay on first date, you call/text again and schedule a second date;
• You go out on date and try to lay her;
• If no lay on second date, you call/text again and schedule a third date;
• You go out on date and try to lay her;
• If no lay on third date, ascertain whether you are sexually progressing with each date and whether this girl is wasting your time a/k/a meeting your needs or merits a NEXT.

Once you lay her, you can ease back. Simple.

I agree with this 100%. You weed through all the games/stigmas/etc. by always ESCALATING (from phone number, to date, to back at your house, etc.). You back off fast/next them if at any point during the process a girl gives resistance, confusion, excuses, obstacles, etc. It's really that simple.

 

[TheGambino]

Doesn't mean sh1t. If she's interested she will meet up with you even if you were needy once or twice. If she has only 40 or 50% intereste level, like really debating if she wants to see you again or not then you lose when she sees weakness. You don't even want to be involved with a 40%/50% interested girl, go for the high interested ones and yes im learning myself everday from experience not from keyboard jockeying.

 

[bigneil]

Doesn't mean sh1t. If she's interested she will meet up with you even if you were needy once or twice. If she has only 40 or 50% intereste level, like really debating if she wants to see you again or not then you lose when she sees weakness. You don't even want to be involved with a 40%/50% interested girl, go for the high interested ones and yes im learning myself everday from experience not from keyboard jockeying.

Why is this forum stuck on first date advice? This is not how relationships work. I love when men pretend they have women nailed down to a simple formula. Try getting a second or third date.

 

[sazc]

again, this is my own POV and reflects how I operate. When I say 'operate' I dont mean my DJ Bible, just how I typically behave because this is who I am.

This is under the assumption that there should be minimal contact between the first 2 or 3 dates. I am a big believer that this is the way to go. Keep the mystery, reveal yourself in person. This might help you with not feeling like you are over contacting.

Here goes.....

Interesting to hear the females POV on this

Case example :

I meet a girl I like we flirt and exchange numbers

I initiate contact as I am a man and am “required” to make the first move , chick responds positively ok great, but conversation HAS to end sooner rather than later in order for either party not to come across as too interested and scare the other side off

So conversation is shut down ……..now who initiates the next contact

that depends, did you get her number? Or did you give her your number? If you got her number, you initiate. If she got yours, she does.
You go out on date one, coffee or a quick drink, 2 hours max. The 'do we remotely vibe' date. We both have a good time. I reciprocate your small gestures of kino. We hug goodbye.
You wait the obligatory "I dont want to come off to needy or interested 3-5 days then.....

Me again I suppose !?! ok fine I feel I shouldn’t really because right now I am at like 60% effort by initiating yet another conversation and she’s at 40% simply waiting & having to respond “positively”

So I wait a couple of days and initiate again and she responds positively again but the conversation again has to end on that day to keep up the charade

You go out on date two. This potentially a longer date where we maybe do dinner and drinks. For me this is a make it or break it date. By the end of this date I will know if I want to keep seeing you or not. You wont be sleeping with me because I do LTRs. You may become uninterested when I kiss you a 'bit' passionately to say goodnight, but dont sleep with you. If things go well I feel a lot more relaxed around you and am excited about getting to know you. Hopefully the vibe between us is one where I feel I can randomly text you and that wont make you feel chased, smothered or like your space is being invaded. After date 2, if you check in with me in a day or two and ask how my day was, or ask how an event went that I told you about, I will feel even more comfortable with you and what we have going on. Please ask me on date 3.

So conversation is shut down again ……now for me this is crunch time at this point she HAS to reach out and initiate with me otherwise I am going up to like 70% effort and she’s going down to 30% this is too far and I feel it opens the door for game playing

But if she feels as though I need to make that third initiation ( and more) to show im interested and prepared to “work” for her

then we enter said Mexican standoff point ......

i feel it is literally easier to obtain casual sex with a stranger than it is to play through this phase with someone you like .......

thoughts please

By the end of the third date both parties should feel comfortable relaxing and speaking casually. Hopefully there is no keeping track of who initiates first because you are both in it to get to know each other enough that, while you still keep your behavior reigned in, you have built up enough trust that you feel comfortable just communicating and dont worry about being judged.

If things are still awkward after the third date then someone is still uncomfortable for some reason. Could be lots of reasons. Lack of casual trust comes to mind, fear of being vulnerable.

Clear as mud?

 

[Bingo-Player]

again, this is my own POV and reflects how I operate. When I say 'operate' I dont mean my DJ Bible, just how I typically behave because this is who I am.

This is under the assumption that there should be minimal contact between the first 2 or 3 dates. I am a big believer that this is the way to go. Keep the mystery, reveal yourself in person. This might help you with not feeling like you are over contacting.

Here goes.....


that depends, did you get her number? Or did you give her your number? If you got her number, you initiate. If she got yours, she does.
You go out on date one, coffee or a quick drink, 2 hours max. The 'do we remotely vibe' date. We both have a good time. I reciprocate your small gestures of kino. We hug goodbye.
You wait the obligatory "I dont want to come off to needy or interested 3-5 days then.....


You go out on date two. This potentially a longer date where we maybe do dinner and drinks. For me this is a make it or break it date. By the end of this date I will know if I want to keep seeing you or not. You wont be sleeping with me because I do LTRs. You may become uninterested when I kiss you a 'bit' passionately to say goodnight, but dont sleep with you. If things go well I feel a lot more relaxed around you and am excited about getting to know you. Hopefully the vibe between us is one where I feel I can randomly text you and that wont make you feel chased, smothered or like your space is being invaded. After date 2, if you check in with me in a day or two and ask how my day was, or ask how an event went that I told you about, I will feel even more comfortable with you and what we have going on. Please ask me on date 3.




By the end of the third date both parties should feel comfortable relaxing and speaking casually. Hopefully there is no keeping track of who initiates first because you are both in it to get to know each other enough that, while you still keep your behavior reigned in, you have built up enough trust that you feel comfortable just communicating and dont worry about being judged.

If things are still awkward after the third date then someone is still uncomfortable for some reason. Could be lots of reasons. Lack of casual trust comes to mind, fear of being vulnerable.

Clear as mud?

Yea I get what your saying but im not sure your average woman IF interested enough in a man to go on 2/3 dates would be able to hold that poker face long enough

Most women ive dated have completely crumbled after the first date and have chased me hard ……..( some even before the first date ) but then saying that I feel I've probably dated down for the majority

tbh Think I am going to give up trying to figure out how to make this phase of the game work

Im good at getting laid and creating physical attraction so I’m just going to stick to doing that

The dating / interest level / emotional side of it just spins me out too much

 

[WanderingMan]

Bingo, what you described in your OP is the exact conundrum that many men (including myself) have run across. I've met girls that I've just wanted to bang, and that's pretty much it, and, in that case I will usually follow legend's run down of how to get laid. However, I've also met girls that I actually want to get to know and think there could be something more than just physical orgams (Gasp!): that I just want to develop something natural with. The problem, though, in this day and age, like you mentioned, is that there is no more romance, there is no more chivalry, there is no more flowers and chocolates. Women are confused. Men are confused. It's as though we're in the midst's of our DNA's getting re-programmed. 50 year wedding anniversaries are going the way of the do-do. And I don't believe it's because we're not trying to "work through our problems" or giving up too easy. I believe it's because there was nothing really there to begin with because we're simply not marrying the right people. We're ending up with the wrong people because the right person didn't return our phone call because she picked up on the fact that we "liked" her and that, due to 21st century programming, turned her off. Just like that, the woman who would have been our perfect match is gone.

What is the cause of this? If I were to sum it up in one word, I'd say: feminism. Men used to lead the way, take charge, pick her up, take her out, decide where to go, drop her off, cover her up when she was cold, all that stuff. That wasn't just considered being "nice", that was considered being a man, taking care of her - a natural form of dominance. If she got too out of line, the men let her know. Boundaries were set, they were adhered to. The women loved being with a strong protector and provider and they got off on it. Now a days they're told that they need to run the show, they need to take charge. One big problem is, because of that, their vanginas are drying up. Their super egalitarian boyfriends/husbands are doing a great job of splitting the cleaning duties but they're doing a horrible job at accomplishing the juices flowing duties.

And, now, we (men), unfortunately, have the task of fixing all of this (surprise, surprise).....while at the same time getting blamed and attacked for being the cause of all these newfound unhappy relationships.

 

[ChristopherColumbus]

So building the superstructure of a relationship from a base of sex looks hard today. And then men settle for the base. I don't know if we should be blaming women for this. I think it's due to the over-arching culture of commodification. Look at the on-line world of dating. So many stacked up shelves of prospective partners, swipe right, swipe left, go for the luxury item, use it for your own needs, built in obsolescence, throw it away, get another one. Both men and women are caught up in this together, best to recognize it for what it is - a moral/ cultural collapse.

Two options, don't give a rat's and get what you can, or be the better person and lead by example... because it takes two to tango.

 

[TheMonkeyKing]

its frustrating when you meet a chick you think could be suitable and your constantly forced to have to go through all this rigmarole

i just can't see a way through it .......

Two considerations for a successful love life, such as is TMK's way:

REALISM
-Most women (and men they deal with) remain blue pill. A true gamesmaster knows how to fulfil women’s blue pill Disney aspirations in the red pill context. They want a red pill man, but these desires cause uncertainty and scare them; so they’ll often settle for the relative safety of the blue pill boredom.

-Not every woman is going to be compatible for the long term. Out of half a dozen women I talk to regularly, there’s maybe one or two I’d consider being exclusive with. I find it’s important to discriminate compatibility early on; owing largely to mutual interest levels. We won’t be compatible long term with most women we meet, beyond a few weeks of fun.

-Best way to maintain interest, be realistic about your own value in relation to hers. We should certainly be dating at least at our own SMV, but you’d best be a millionaire if you’re planning to date and keep the attention of supermodels as an example. That’s not pessimism, that’s realism.

-Very little in life that is worth something comes free of charge. It’s like we were talking about in my ‘just want sex’ thread, a decent self-respecting girl may well start demanding more than just sex, unless that’s literally all she wants too. It’s not always a case of her being a demanding b!tch, but actually her human right to want her investments reciprocated somehow; because sex is a greater investment for a woman than a man. Whether or not she is deserving of more is to be determined on a case by case basis. Lower value girls will just carry on if we are their best option.


OPTIMISM
-On a forum like this, it is easy to get stuck heading down a mire of pessimism. The majority of guys come here having been burned, so it’s understandable and I can vouch for how difficult it is to turn one’s life on a positive spin again. But it is possible.

-Learn to enjoy the Great Game again. Learn to enjoy the company of women again. If we embrace the challenge, rather than viewing the nature of women as problematic, we start to enjoy the process, opposed to seeing it as a chore.

-Dating women is part of my social life and I see sex as a benefit or by-product of that; rather than socialising with women being something I have to do in order to get sex.


Success is dictated almost entirely by the internal monologue, the mind-set, the stories we tell ourselves.

 

[nismo-4]

A lot of communication gets f**ked up because men don't have the ability to read minds of women.

 

[Julian]

Women do the choosing. They will let you know and give you the green light. Your the one that needs to pop the clutch and put the pedal to the fkin metal

 

[l_e_g_e_n_d]

Bingo, what you described in your OP is the exact conundrum that many men (including myself) have run across. I've met girls that I've just wanted to bang, and that's pretty much it, and, in that case I will usually follow legend's run down of how to get laid. However, I've also met girls that I actually want to get to know and think there could be something more than just physical orgams (Gasp!): that I just want to develop something natural with. The problem, though, in this day and age, like you mentioned, is that there is no more romance, there is no more chivalry, there is no more flowers and chocolates. Women are confused. Men are confused. It's as though we're in the midst's of our DNA's getting re-programmed. 50 year wedding anniversaries are going the way of the do-do. And I don't believe it's because we're not trying to "work through our problems" or giving up too easy. I believe it's because there was nothing really there to begin with because we're simply not marrying the right people. We're ending up with the wrong people because the right person didn't return our phone call because she picked up on the fact that we "liked" her and that, due to 21st century programming, turned her off. Just like that, the woman who would have been our perfect match is gone.

What is the cause of this? If I were to sum it up in one word, I'd say: feminism. Men used to lead the way, take charge, pick her up, take her out, decide where to go, drop her off, cover her up when she was cold, all that stuff. That wasn't just considered being "nice", that was considered being a man, taking care of her - a natural form of dominance. If she got too out of line, the men let her know. Boundaries were set, they were adhered to. The women loved being with a strong protector and provider and they got off on it. Now a days they're told that they need to run the show, they need to take charge. One big problem is, because of that, their vanginas are drying up. Their super egalitarian boyfriends/husbands are doing a great job of splitting the cleaning duties but they're doing a horrible job at accomplishing the juices flowing duties.

And, now, we (men), unfortunately, have the task of fixing all of this (surprise, surprise).....while at the same time getting blamed and attacked for being the cause of all these newfound unhappy relationships.

Wandering man, whether you want to get to know her or have sex with her, still requires the same approach.

Your job is to fvck her. That's it. Until then, she is ready and willing to eject at any moment. The sooner sex develops, the greater your chance of getting to know her.

Sex first, "what's your name" after.

 

[WanderingMan]

Wandering man, whether you want to get to know her or have sex with her, still requires the same approach.

Your job is to fvck her. That's it. Until then, she is ready and willing to eject at any moment. The sooner sex develops, the greater your chance of getting to know her.

Sex first, "what's your name" after.

That's a very popular belief you have legend, but I beg to differ. One night stands are a dime a dozen. Getting to know a chick and then ****ing her, unless the getting to know her is ruse, usually leads to something more than a "one night stand", getting to know her after you two banged (and NOT before) rarely seems to amount to much (except for a glorified fvck buddy).....IME.

 

[ChristopherColumbus]

Yes, I think a delicate balance needs to be struck between engaging her personality and turning her on. Kind of like looking for the 'goldilocks zone'.

 

[WanderingMan]

Yes, I think a delicate balance needs to be struck between engaging her personality and turning her on. Kind of like looking for the 'goldilocks zone'.

GOLDILOCKS ZONE!!

Nailed it.

 

[ubercat]

In my player phase I used to get a lot of girls I would **** on the first night. Who would then bail a couple of weeks or months later. I never quite figured out if it was the slut / good girl death spiral in their hamster or if it was my lack of congruence later on. There's definitely some Factor at work there