Do you consider BPD relationships as real

Pandora

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So its been over a year since i broke it off with the BPD ex. I have had another gf since then and dated other girls. I am largely over her. But every now and then i will watch old videos or think about amazing memories that we had. My question is should i even look at those times as real. Did she really even feel those things. If she did feel those amazing times does it count because she is crazy?
Basically does the crazy factor of a BPD invalidate the relationship you guys had.
 

BeExcellent

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The relationship may be an illusion but the damage they create is concretely real and has massive collateral damage to people close to them.

BPD mothers in particular are extremely damaging to their children. BPD wives eviscerate their husbands & families.

So while they cannot love in a healthy way they can create a healthy amount of destruction that is caustic all the way around. Do not wife up or have kids with one. You and your children will go through hell.
 

Pandora

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You can take some pride in landing these women though as they tend to have high standards for the boyfriend role based on whatever criteria they find important.

To what extent though I'm not sure, because I actually considered making a thread about whether it's strategically better to cut the whole experience out of your analysis of women because it's so skewed one way.
Isnt that something. They will **** anyone but they settle down with only a few. Yeh and about the analysis thing i wonder about that also. My thing is why do they tend to be so damn hot. I have rarely seen an ugly BPD. Most are cute. Maybe their BPD gets enabled by being attractive. Or maybe attractive girls get molested more often. Maybe you dont pay attention to ugly BPDs.
 

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What happened was real and what you felt was real. What she really felt you couldn't really know at the time and you can't know it for sure ever.

It's over now, it shouldn't even matter to you how she felt before, now or ever.
 

fastlife

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I think the most important takeaway is to always prioritize your experience of any given situation. Wondering what she felt or how 'real' it was to her is a codependent thought and indicates you still have work to do (and its not easy!).

However, they are still women after all(just to an extreme level) so its OK to apply lessons you learned with them to future. To what extent though I'm not sure, because I actually considered making a thread about whether it's strategically better to cut the whole experience out of your analysis of women because it's so skewed one way. It may be that the costs outweigh the benefits. That being said, I certainly know there are at least some similarities with more normal women and Cluster B women.
I think it's a wash. If you let the situation introduce fear to your dealings with future women, then better to cut the whole thing out--or better yet work through the PTSD before reviewing the experience--because that PTSD will cause you to lose frame & push away girls for no real reason. For me, Radio Silence was a sh1t test that I failed consistently for about a year after my BPD relationship ended (she went from texting constantly to nothing in the week she went back to her 'abusive' ex-boyfriend when we were supposedly working things out)--and anytime a girl went Radio Silence it'd trigger an intense emotional reaction. Also the behavior that your BPD found attractive (at least once you entered the Clinger phase) will absolutely repel emotionally 'healthy'(er) women.

That said, the most appalling BPD-behaviors such as a lack of empathy, duplicity, & distorting truth to fit the emotions of the present moment, are present in other girls to a lesser degree--especially in times of heavy emotional stress (or when hypergamy is triggered). But degrees make a monumental difference; most women won't feel the need to try to fvck up your life or intentionally hurt you when it's all said and done.
 

Peace and Quiet

If you currently have too many women chasing you, calling you, harassing you, knocking on your door at 2 o'clock in the morning... then I have the simple solution for you.

Just read my free ebook 22 Rules for Massive Success With Women and do the opposite of what I recommend.

This will quickly drive all women away from you.

And you will be able to relax and to live your life in peace and quiet.

WitnessGR

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Isnt that something. They will **** anyone but they settle down with only a few. Yeh and about the analysis thing i wonder about that also. My thing is why do they tend to be so damn hot. I have rarely seen an ugly BPD. Most are cute. Maybe their BPD gets enabled by being attractive. Or maybe attractive girls get molested more often. Maybe you dont pay attention to ugly BPDs.
In the cases I've seen, low and mid range Bpd's tendencies seem to be more exaggerated and destructive. A Bpd's biggest fear is fear of abandonment, and as somebody less attractive with less options available to them, they seem to rely less on physical attraction and more on emotional manipulation (ie suicidal). Person to person they seem to be more clingy and sadistic.
 

Pandora

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Also the behavior that your BPD found attractive (at least once you entered the Clinger phase) will absolutely repel emotionally 'healthy'(er) women.
Very interesting man. You are right. That qoute made me realize why i liked her so much. Inside of me there is a clingy little boy. I guess i entered the clinger phase because that was inside of me all along. Maybe guys who are susceptible to BPDs are guys who find solace in codependency (with hot chicks).
This qoute made realize something. It should end the debate of whether women like alpha or beta traits. BPDs are along a female spectrum. The farther along you down that spectrum the more attractive the girl will find beta traits ( like clinginess). The more emotionally healthy ones dont find codependant traits very attractive. This is what i have been saying for a while. Emotionally unhealthy women go for men they can manipulate aka betas.
 

Pandora

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In the cases I've seen, low and mid range Bpd's tendencies seem to be more exaggerated and destructive. A Bpd's biggest fear is fear of abandonment, and as somebody less attractive with less options available to them, they seem to rely less on physical attraction and more on emotional manipulation (ie suicidal). Person to person they seem to be more clingy and sadistic.
Yes i guess you are right. The fat ugly bpd is less of a seducer and more of a cutter/ suicidal threats type girl. Makes sense.
 

fastlife

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Very interesting man. You are right. That qoute made me realize why i liked her so much. Inside of me there is a clingy little boy. I guess i entered the clinger phase because that was inside of me all along. Maybe guys who are susceptible to BPDs are guys who find solace in codependency (with hot chicks).
This qoute made realize something. It should end the debate of whether women like alpha or beta traits. BPDs are along a female spectrum. The farther along you down that spectrum the more attractive the girl will find beta traits ( like clinginess). The more emotionally healthy ones dont find codependant traits very attractive. This is what i have been saying for a while. Emotionally unhealthy women go for men they can manipulate aka betas.
Exactly. And codependency's especially insidious, since a lot of the qualities--self-sacrifice, unconditional loyalty, making sure others know you care about them, putting other's needs before your own, etc., etc.--are socially-conditioned as 'honorable' qualities. In our society (maybe in most societies) a codependent person is a 'good person;' in a lot of family units a codependent person is a 'good person'--not like all those 'selfish azzholes!' And people who aren't codependent are shamed--Get back in your place; be a good boy; you OFFENDED ME--unless shame is 100% ineffective, in which case you can expect grudging respect, at worst, and possibly even admiration. But why is that the case?

Well, a codependent person is useful; they're easily controlled. You'll probably find that, especially in your relationships, especially with mom and dad and possibly with your friends, there are still actively codependent dynamics. And you'll probably find that as you attempt to eliminate codependent thought-patterns and behaviors, these same people won't let you escape that paradigm without a fight. And since you've been codependent from the day you reach cognizance, this will feel like a personal attack on the very essence of who you are--but it's not, since codependence is the denial of self; it's just that you've built an ego around these qualities.

Narcissism, BPD, Codependency are all just different expressions of the same core disorder. For a codependent or a narcissist whose had a spin with a BPD this is a kick in the gut, but hear me out. In a childhood environment where the needs of the kid--and not just the 'needs'--aren't properly attended to, the child makes assumptions about what kind of behavior gets their needs met (or at least acknowledged): the reaction to those assumptions becomes the ego, that acknowledgement becomes supply. For a borderline the assumption is that nobody loves me, I can't trust anyone, I'm a bad person, if I can get someone to stay with me despite my fvcked up behavior then that means I'm loveable, but they're going to abandon me anyway. Their supply--what validates their initial assumptions--is Idealization, Caretaking, & Abandonment (in that order). A narcissist makes the same assumptions, but their ego develops in the converse: I'm a remarkable person, Other people are just too stupid to understand, I can take care of myself, Everyone should admire me, I can save other people. Their supply is Admiration, Validation, To feel Needed, To feel Special, To reassert their independence. A codependent make the same assumptions, but their ego develops outwardly. So it's more of a matter of, If I'm a nice person people will love me, If I do the right thing people won't attack me, If I show how much I care, she'll never leave me, If I'm perfect no one will see how unlovable I am.

One's not better than the other--it's still manipulation. If I do this, I'll get that--that will make me feel good about myself--Why won't you acknowledge meeeee. Depending on whether you get your supply of choice, you feel All Good or All Bad and feel that the source of supply, whether they're putting out, is All Good or All Bad. That's why it's futile to blame your BPDex. They're a lot more like you than you'd like to admit--and blame is a codependent thought that negates your own agency and sense of responsibility. It's also why it's so, so hard to reconcile the Perfect version of your ex with the Evil version of your ex--you still have to fight through that paradigm.

The good news is that it isn't your fault--it's just some dumb assumption you made as a kid since you didn't know any better and you grew up in an invalidating environment where Love = Performance and you didn't know how to love yourself or to fully accept all aspects of your flawed, natural self. First you need to dig deep to reach that initial assumption and to change it. Then you need to take steps to reassert your natural self, which your ego won't like at all--and to eventually accept yourself as a flawed individual, just like any other individual, who sometimes thinks or wants 'fvcked up' things & to prioritize your own needs first and then to give others only the excess. It's an extremely painful undertaking, but it's worth it on the other side. I can promise you unconditional self-love & self-acceptance is way better than any supply your ex (or anyone else) ever provided you--and once you reach that point, you won't really care how much of it was 'real to her' or how 'she wronged you' or how other girls compare to her.
 

Infern0

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Codependency is the need to be loved and supported but doing it through "giving" so it's like "if I do all this for her and look after her she will love me and be happy with me"

There's nothing "good" about Codependency it's a very dishonest and dishonorable way to be.

(I used to be one)

As for bpd relationship being "real". Theres no way to know what was and wasn't.

I think mine "loved" what she thought I represented at one stage, bimut tbh i don't think there was any capacity in her for any "real love" and I was a fool to try and extract that from her.

These girls probably don't even know themselves. It's transitional for minute to minute so if you are the best option they love you until the second a better option enters the picture.

In the end, it doesn't matter. Only the lessons learned are important.
 
B

BlueAlpha1

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This question always gets me and I have no idea.

I think it was real at the time when she would pay a $300 cab to get me 75 miles home after a fight, or when she was getting a painful foot tattoo as a tribute to me.

But 1.5 yrs later after disappearing off the face of the earth simply because I insisted on using condoms again after going bare for a while. She surely latched onto someone else or an old flame that came before me and probably made out like I never existed, or was the devil incarnate.

And you know what? There may come a day in another 2 years where she's lonely and crying over an old picture of us. But I don't hold my damn breath anymore.
 

Tom Shivoe

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Slightly off topic as my ex is NPD, but the codependent thing totally resonates with me. When she got pregnant (after several failed attempts to make me go bareback and then a "mistake" with contraception), I did the "decent thing" and poured 8 years of my life and counting down a hole, at least in terms of relationships with women and finances.

Although my kids (yes there was another "mistake") are incredible, so overall, I can't say I'd change it if I could.

It's only over time that I have come to realise just how totally my ex's behaviour is dominated by her condition so now sadly I cannot say anything was real about the relationship except my kids.

But yeah, if a women starts putting pressure on you to go bareback (so not a mutual decision), I'd say that's an automatic red flag*. Do not buy any BS about how it will feel good or about the withdrawal method.

* EDIT: by which I mean I would go zero contact straightaway. The "damsel in distress" routine is one of these people's standard ploys. You cannot fix them so don't even try.
 

Tom Shivoe

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The relationship may be an illusion but the damage they create is concretely real and has massive collateral damage to people close to them.

BPD mothers in particular are extremely damaging to their children. BPD wives eviscerate their husbands & families.

So while they cannot love in a healthy way they can create a healthy amount of destruction that is caustic all the way around. Do not wife up or have kids with one. You and your children will go through hell.
Sorry for double post, but I can confirm this from personal experience.
 

wolf

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I wish more ppl who went through NPD shyte chimed in on BPD threads in the past, or I wouldnt have ended up in the pickle I did. BPD didn't fit all that well so I held off judgment too long...turned out classic covert NPD. I had no idea until after the breakup, I ran into a covert NPD in recovery who diagnosed that sh!t in a minute. I thought NPDs were all like Donald Trump.
Back when i was trying to figure my BPD/Covert NPD out, all i had was Loveshack for advice on relationships although i never actually signed up or posted. No wonder i ended up in the mess i did Ha. It wasn't until 5 or 6 weeks that after i walked away that i had my 'light bulb moment'. Spending roughly 6-9 hours a day googling all of the things she did/didn't do, say/didn't say and every reaction and facial expression lead me to reading the diagnostic criteria for BPD and NPD. I literally felt this huge weight leave my shoulders. What i figured was the end was actually the beginning of a long and painful journey.

I had heard the term "Narcissist" mentioned a few times. Hell even one girl i had previously dated for a short time told me she once went on a date with a guy who told her she was a Narcissist and left!! I guess there comes a point where life stops giving you digs in the arm and starts punching you square in the face..
 

wolf

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The thing about covert narcs is they actually show low self esteem and/or empathetic behavior (for purposes of getting Narc supply) so no one intuitively would ever suspect it's a type of Narcissism. Of course there were a few classic narc quotes thrown in there but I brushed them off as "she has low self esteem so she's just coping." Yeah, no sh1t...
Especially when she randomly reiterates that she is both Empathetic and Emotionally Intelligent during what seems every time you see her.... like "No dear...being a sociopathic ***** is not being Empathetic or Emotionally Intelligent... it is you just being a Manipulative ***** that always has to have her own way in life.. "

Man that girl had me suicidal!!!!!!!!
 

wolf

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I dont think mine could have said that with a straight face haha...she was really smart and intellectual but prided herself on being cold, she would talk abstractly about empathy but so did the other one I met...what they mean by empathy is observing and adapting to people to get them to like you, like sexually. Which they are fairly good at so highly empathetic, clearly. I guess raging all the time because no one is "grateful"(enough) for your liking is emotional IQ to them...they have the emotional IQ to "stand up for themselves" because "no one appreciates them."
Yeah i hear ya. I guess that is called 'cold' empathy. Like how a wolf hunting down an injured rabbit needs to know how the rabbit feels in order to track it down by working out which direction it took off in. Funnily enough my mom shares the same trait.
 

wolf

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Yeah one of the ones I know told me "the secret to great sex is empathy"....Huh? She basically conflated cold empathy with deep emotional empathy, actually another cluster B ex said a similar thing without using the term.
The best way i can describe sex with a Cluster B is that it is the closest you will ever come to ever having sex with yourself. Want to fuk like a pornstar? No problem! She is already wearing those crotchless panties you love and she has bought her bag of toys... Want to rock back and forth gently while gazing into one anothers eyes? No problem... she has already lit the candles and is waiting naked on your bed while holding a copy of the kama sutra..

Mirroring during sex is the most amazing thing (and ultimately toxic addicting thing) that you will experience with her. She is already in your head and touching you in places no other woman has ever touched you!
 

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Can someone shed some insight into this same question but with a cluster b and not necessarily a woman with BPD? I realize that BPD traits and symptoms can fall within a cluster b personality disordered person, but isn't BPD the most extreme case? What about HPD or NPD or even antisocial PD? How do these women feel about past relationships?
 

wolf

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Can someone shed some insight into this same question but with a cluster b and not necessarily a woman with BPD? I realize that BPD traits and symptoms can fall within a cluster b personality disordered person, but isn't BPD the most extreme case? What about HPD or NPD or even antisocial PD? How do these women feel about past relationships?
Cluster B Personality disorders often overlap with one another. BPD isn't necessarily the most extreme of the disorders but it can be the most dramatic in the sense where they tend to operate by how they feel at that time. These feelings can change within hours/days and so can their actions ie loving you sweetly to raging at you and then being sweet again. They will only let their true colors show when you get too close and they know they have you.

As for The other disorders, well none are good and they are all dramatic but do operate in a slightly different way. This is why it can be extremely difficult to differentiate between the disorders themselves. BPD'S (low functioning) tend to cut/self harm. HPD's tend to be straight up party girls who get drunk and do party drugs. NPD's usually fear death and tend not to self harm. NPD's need a constant source of attention as they only exist in the eyes of others due to now sense of self. This is partly why they mirror people.

As for how they feel about past relationships? Well most of them feel nothing especially if it was them that discarded you first. If you discarded them then they may think of you for years on end ultimately turning up again months/years/decades later when you least expect. Many can only feel 'love' when they are yearning for it. I use the term love loosely as what they feel isn't actually love but a kind of 'love' they experienced in childhood, often chaotic, hurtful, selfish and abandoning.
 

btownbuck2012

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Especially when she randomly reiterates that she is both Empathetic and Emotionally Intelligent during what seems every time you see her.... like "No dear...being a sociopathic ***** is not being Empathetic or Emotionally Intelligent... it is you just being a Manipulative ***** that always has to have her own way in life.. "

Man that girl had me suicidal!!!!!!!!
Yeah same thing with me. I remember feeling that if I ever had to break up with this girl she would be suicidal. That's how much I thought she loved me and enjoyed being with me. She seemed like a bit of a loner who was shy, book smart and a little timid. Ironically, she always told me how she wasn't a very nice person. This shocked me because she was so nice to me. Overly nice. But like you said above, the cruelness and coldness of how she ended things was unbelievable. And like I've read online this happened once their was a bit of a power shift in the relationship. She was essentially a booty call for a year but the moment I talked about loving her and wanting to get more serious with her she starts sending mixed messages, withholding sex, texting random guys, etc. "What the hell is happening here?" I thought.

If left me in a daze and yes I was actually feeling so low that thoughts of suicide ran through my head. I literally couldn't believe what happened. Surely this girl had some type of personality disorder, yeah?
 

Peace and Quiet

If you currently have too many women chasing you, calling you, harassing you, knocking on your door at 2 o'clock in the morning... then I have the simple solution for you.

Just read my free ebook 22 Rules for Massive Success With Women and do the opposite of what I recommend.

This will quickly drive all women away from you.

And you will be able to relax and to live your life in peace and quiet.

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