Young men are becoming more alpha or beta?

[SkrooU]

I don't like how these terms are overused or misused. But they seem to be an easy way to sum up male behavior as being one of self-respect or no self-respect.

So I'm home sick this week, and yesterday I just start googling all the topics that have been coming up on this forum. And I'm finding that a huge portion of men in their 20s think it's alpha to allow your woman to spend the night, hang, or travel with their ex or a close male friend because it's the ultimate display of confidence. And any male who questions this behavior is a jealous controlling beta.

I created an account to test this idea. I posted as a female complaining about her boyfriend being upset that she was moving in with her ex so they could make their carpool arrangement more efficient. Half the dudes who replied said something like this, "I'm so sorry your bf is just jealous and doesn't trust you". A lot of the women said something like this, "I had a bf like that. Key word is HAD. Some people don't understand that people aren't property". My account was deleted for "flaming other members", whatever that means.

But it's not just men who are thinking this way. I posted another question as a woman being upset that her fiancé made last minute plans to spend christmas and new years with his ex wife at her parents' house because it was best for their kids, and he has barely communicated with her for a week. Typical replies were, "so you can't see past the needs of a child? Sounds like you need to work on your self esteem by getting your own life instead of making your fiancé fulfill all your happiness. If you can't trust him to be around his ex, then you don't deserve him." This came from women and men. Of course there were a few stray comments of common sense, like "I'm sorry but you should not tolerate this".


I would never become exclusive with a woman and then expect her to think it's perfectly acceptable for me to go hang with my ex like that. So I'm thinking everyone has the intuition that this is just a little weird and therefore is just rationalizing why it's ok. If my wife/gf was doing this and I tried to accept it, I'd be losing interest very fast and get close with other women, which means my relationship didn't mean much to me.

Maybe I was oblivious to this when I was in my 20s. But I just don't remember my peers thinking this was so acceptable.

 

[Who Dares Win]

The two examples are different, totally different.

A young girl spending time alone with her ex bf cannot be compared to a wife who had a son with an other men spending xmas with his fathers family and the kid.

Regarding your question I live in a no investment no commitment mode toward women, they can basically do whatever they want for the simple fact that no effort from me is given to them.

This is not the world where to invest in a woman, cant fight culture, law and media all togheter by yourself.

 

[taiyuu_otoko]

I don't like how these terms are overused or misused.

Then how about some definitions?

ALPHA indicates leadership. It's not "confidence" or "social skills." If you have ten dudes, only ONE can be THE alpha. If you have a hundred dudes, maybe a few are "alpha." ALPHA, of course, comes from the Greek ALPHAbet (alpha beta) where ALPHA is FIRST and BETA comes after alpha.

To say that "people are becoming more alpha" is like saying "more and more people today are becoming above average" which is mathematically impossible.

You either ARE "the alpha" of any group, or you are not. There's no sliding scale of "alpha-ness."

If you're in a relationship, you are either LEADING or you are FOLLOWING. You are either DECIDING or you are AGREEING TO DECISIONS.

Any guy that does not have a clear sense of his own boundaries, and his own CRITERIA with regards to the women he will date, or the women won't date, CANNOT BE ALPHA.

Of course, as George Orwell will tell you, redefining terms to meet your own needs is a fine skill to have.

 

[SkrooU]

Then how about some definitions?

ALPHA indicates leadership. It's not "confidence" or "social skills." If you have ten dudes, only ONE can be THE alpha. If you have a hundred dudes, maybe a few are "alpha." ALPHA, of course, comes from the Greek ALPHAbet (alpha beta) where ALPHA is FIRST and BETA comes after alpha.

To say that "people are becoming more alpha" is like saying "more and more people today are becoming above average" which is mathematically impossible.

You either ARE "the alpha" of any group, or you are not. There's no sliding scale of "alpha-ness."

If you're in a relationship, you are either LEADING or you are FOLLOWING. You are either DECIDING or you are AGREEING TO DECISIONS.

Any guy that does not have a clear sense of his own boundaries, and his own CRITERIA with regards to the women he will date, or the women won't date, CANNOT BE ALPHA.

Of course, as George Orwell will tell you, redefining terms to meet your own needs is a fine skill to have.

I'm asking if people think young men are becoming more alpha or beta in their personal relationships with women. This is why I gave examples of relationship conflicts and boundary issues between men and women. If I was talking about men being alpha in relation to just other men, I would've given examples of situations involving just men.

I think they're incorrectly used terms when people say things like, "alphas work outdoors, betas work in the office; alphas never pay, betas always pay, alphas workout, betas play video games and knit". Or people just result to insults and pull out the beta name calling just because someone is marrying a single mother. I don't want to date single mothers. But I don't think it makes you a beta if you happen to form a good relationship with one and get along with the kids.

 

[taiyuu_otoko]

I'm asking if people think young men are becoming more alpha or beta in their personal relationships with women.

Alpha = ?

Beta = ?

 

[SkrooU]

Alpha = ?

Beta = ?

You already defined it in your first post. My definition doesn't differ from yours.

 

[taiyuu_otoko]

You already defined it in your first post. My definition doesn't differ from yours.

So your question, "are men being more alpha or less alpha" can be translated to "are men taking more of a leadership role in relationships or less of a leadership role" correct?

I would say they are more or less the same, or perhaps less.

I would say very few men actually have any idea what they want in a relationship or a woman. They just take whatever they can get, and do whatever they can, bend over backwards, etc. put up with as much crap, etc. to maintain it.

But that's nearly impossible to measure from the outside of somebody's brain, since humans are the galactic champions of self-deception.

 

[Serenity]

If only reality was black and white.

As mentioned there's a noticable difference in your two examples. The first example I wouldn't allow, period. The second example I might allow, but I wouldn't know until actually put in the situation. Why? Because there's a lot of circumstances that would dictate what would be a wise decision. I would assess the quality and trust level of my relationship, circumstances surrounding their past together, what type of guy he is, why it ended, how it ended, how much it would matter to the kids and a bunch of other things.

What you mention isn't a common issue though. Most people understand that seeing their ex isn't generally well received by new partners, most don't even want to see their ex.

You've gone to great lengths about this subject, makes me wonder why are you so obsessed with this?

 

[SkrooU]

You've gone to great lengths about this subject, makes me wonder why are you so obsessed with this?

I do this with many subjects. Weeks ago, it was gun laws. Before that it was the estate tax.

I dumped a previous girlfriend for baby sitting her ex husband's son 2 days during the week because those were her days off and he was working. She had told me she didn't want me to be in the company of an ex because something might happen again. When I found out, I had to assume she was not only a hypocrite, but also a liar and possibly attracted to her ex husband and maybe fvcking him. She begged and said she was sorry she was just trying to make extra money and be a good friend and didn't want me to worry and she knew she could trust herself. I believed her, but it was just something I couldn't overlook. I saw her last week at my mom's christmas party. She had never met my parents but came with her sister who works with my mom. It was a shock for both of us and pretty awkward. Then there's a plate I have now who makes a point to tell me she can close her legs so should be trusted to even spend the night with an ex if she's in a relationship. I've heard this before and didn't care much. But her husband committed suicide when she left him because she couldn't deal with his jealousy over her male friends. So this one made me think more about the subject. This mindset of hers actually fascinates me. I can't justify myself doing what she thinks is ok. So I'm wondering how she justifies it in her own mind. And the topic has come up here a couple times recently as I'm home sick in bed and surfing the net every few hours. Just got me interested in the topic.

 

[Serenity]

I would find it very weird if my girlfriend was babysitting her ex's son. If her ex was her husband though she might have developed a relationship with this kid though. Don't know the timeframes here, but it's relevant. I would only assume it was for at least a few years, since they were married. I'd still ask a lot of questions and pay close attention, but I'd advise her to tell him to find someone else to babysit the kid.

Your current plate probably did the right thing leaving her husband. If he killed himself for it he probably had an insane level of jealousy. My cousins ex was close to that level, she left him because he was extremely possessive of her. Denying a woman to have male friends is indicative of strong jealousy and women fvcking hate it. Most will just dump you for it, freedom is usually worth more than any man.

You talk as though a male friend is equivalent to an ex. Just so I make it clear, male friend and ex is NOT the same thing. An ex is a whole lot more threatening because of their emotional and sexual past together. A few platonic male friends should not be cause for jealousy.

 

[SkrooU]

His son was born after they were divorced, and they had no children of their own. She had wanted to adopt because she couldn't have children. He left so he could have his own, and the son's mother made him break all contact with my ex gf. So it seemed like he was using his son to win back my gf, and there was the added benefit of her feeling like she was getting back at his newest ex wife. This is all speculation, but I didn't want any part of it, especially after it was hidden from me for weeks, and it was a violation of a boundary which she asked for before I did. Her ex husband was apparently willing to talk to me to defend her. But I think I was looking for a reason to breakup anyway. Even if I hadn't been looking for a reason, I still would have ended things because the deception and double standard was too much for me. I can be forgiving and understanding, but sometimes things just blow my mind, and I can't forget them or feel right afterward.

I don't know the details of how jealous my plate's husband was. She has told me that everyone blames her for his suicide. She says it's because he had a manipulative personality that only she knew. This does happen. I'm sure plenty of men here have stories of women doing this to them. It's happened to me too. Part of me thinks the reason she is so adamant about being able to have any male friend she wants, and even go on skiing trips with exes, is because her husband was extremely controlling to a psychotic degree, and she needs to know that she won't end up with another guy like that. She said he had a P.I. follow her and there was GPS tracker hidden on her car. But maybe she was spending the night at her ex boyfriend's house lol. I have no idea why she's like this. Whatever the reason, it's still not something I want to deal with in an exclusive relationship. I've already detached myself emotionally from this woman. I have another plate I've known longer and already picked up a new additional plate. Not as hot, but it's something different so the newness of it is appealing. This has made it easy to not care when she goes hanging out with her male "friends" and spends the night. I'm kinda seeing her more as a fwb instead of a true plate. If she doesn't make it apparent and visible of how my relationship is different from her friendships with other men, then I have to assume there isn't much of a difference. Actions speak louder than word to me.

I don't think a male friend is an ex. I think anyone whom she's had phsyically intimate relations with is an ex, whether she was exclusive with them or not. Most women I know try to hide this history with some of their male friends. And most women justify loose or no boundaries with a prior fwb because no exclusivity ever happened with them. This just seems manipulative to me. I simply wouldn't commit to a woman and then tell her that I'm going to the movies with the plate that I referred to in the last paragraph just because I won't be exclusive with her. Seems like common sense that it's disrespectful. If I really like someone and want to keep them, I simply won't do it.

 

[Milano]

I have also heard about this from pick up instructors, that you shouldnt worry about their "friends", but I think their lifestyle doesnt give them time with 1 girl ever to build enough trust either, so they just have to go with the less time-consuming careless way to handle girls, which ofc can be alfa too in a way too.

I do remember my first girlfriend after we had ****ed a few times and started getting feelings for each other saying to me "I have planned going to a few buddies of mine this evening, I wonder if I should go". I just replied straight up "no you are not". She got really happy when I said that, and even told me straight up that she was hoping I would say that, and that she wanted to stay. Later I found out that she had ****ed some of these guys, which would be something out of the question for me if she wanted to build a relationship at that time. Later I do realize that there are few situations where you will have as much power to be blunt like that with a girl this early, she must have pretty high attraction towards you, which is hard for most of us to find.

Funny thing is, she also had a little daughter. So we actually got to talk about this thing regarding Christmas etc, and I remember thinking that it would not be possible AT ALL for me to celebrate Christmas alone while she went to her ex if that would be an option in the future. Its just about respecting urself as a man with balls even though one could say the kid is above all yadayada, that went out the window when they split up. Never ever would I allow myself to lose balls like that, even though she said she would never do that I dont know if I could trust a womans heart when it comes to a childs wishes in the future, which made that relationship impossible for me. Too many variables and a kid has more power than you is impossible for most to deal with.

And guys, when it comes to a special situation like that, unless you have been with a woman that has a child you actually dont know what you would feel until you are in that place. It takes a VERY special man to be able to swallow that apple.

When it comes to the guy-friends thing, you can bet she has ****ed some of them, and put them in friendzone etc. You see this often with girls who are very popular and loving the spotlight from all the men in sight. So, if you find these instagram-loving monsters, you have to decide if you wanna try to break that up by having a conversation after she has fallen in love with you and ofc risk her dropping you, or you have to move to another city with her which is a great idea to get rid of all that background noise (my dad taught me that

Remember, it is ok to look for a woman who wants to settle down and respect her man. They are few but they exist, my byddy actually found one and they have kids etc, couldnt be more happy, he even made her cook for him. A FEW women actually wants to be treated like a traditional woman, but I think this is key to make anything work, even this: Be better than most, get a top job/education in a place where the gap between rich and poor is higher than for instance in Northern Europe where I live. Work hard is ofc a given, sadly I didnt learn it well enough myself so I am struggling with that way of living, but one cant give up on that or one will be forever alone or with a fat chick. Social status is king.

 

[zekko]

You talk as though a male friend is equivalent to an ex. Just so I make it clear, male friend and ex is NOT the same thing. An ex is a whole lot more threatening because of their emotional and sexual past together.

Not sure I agree with that, necessarily. I notice a lot of guys here want to draw the line when it comes to exes, but will overlook male friends. To some extent (and it depends on the situation), a woman have some legitimate business with an ex (like if they have children together, certainly). Or maybe the woman has moved on emotionally, but there is a certain topic or area of expertise that her ex will know.

Meanwhile, a male friend, and most especially a new male friend, may not be as platonic as he might appear. Lots of guys here have posted experiences where they knew girls who banged their gay male friend in the heat of the moment.

Anyway, I'm not saying that either one is okay or not okay, but to say one is okay and not the other is not necessarily so.

 

[Serenity]

Not sure I agree with that, necessarily. I notice a lot of guys here want to draw the line when it comes to exes, but will overlook male friends. To some extent (and it depends on the situation), a woman have some legitimate business with an ex (like if they have children together, certainly). Or maybe the woman has moved on emotionally, but there is a certain topic or area of expertise that her ex will know.

Meanwhile, a male friend, and most especially a new male friend, may not be as platonic as he might appear. Lots of guys here have posted experiences where they knew girls who banged their gay male friend in the heat of the moment.

Anyway, I'm not saying that either one is okay or not okay, but to say one is okay and not the other is not necessarily so.

Hmmm, you're right that it's not simple. I would certainly agree that it's circumstantial. New male friends would be reason for suspicion, but depends on circumstances.

I can imagine a number of ways where it would be ok, but also a number of ways where it wouldn't.

 

[speed dawg]

I think young kids are trying to recreate alpha tendencies in incorrect ways. They've been taught by their single moms what being alpha should be, but they realize deep down it doesn't work, and they know there is 'something' about being manly, even though they have no clue what it is.

As for culture, it's becoming less masculine for sure.

 

[Milano]

Thing with "alpha" these days is that women flip the "jealousy card" on you if you want to stand up to her, so you get fuhcked anyway. I still think you gotta draw a line with all the guy friends and exes etc, but you gotta do it when she is in love with you, you have to be in such a good position that she cant say no. Ofc if the woman is at a diva level nothing might work unless you are a movie star, which makes me only want to **** those kind a girls, not get into a relationship with them.

Also guys, I have said this before but I will say it again: If you dont like the social network of your woman, make her move to another city with you, or abroad if you can

 

[exhausted]

Then how about some definitions?

ALPHA indicates leadership. It's not "confidence" or "social skills." If you have ten dudes, only ONE can be THE alpha. If you have a hundred dudes, maybe a few are "alpha." ALPHA, of course, comes from the Greek ALPHAbet (alpha beta) where ALPHA is FIRST and BETA comes after alpha.

To say that "people are becoming more alpha" is like saying "more and more people today are becoming above average" which is mathematically impossible.

You either ARE "the alpha" of any group, or you are not. There's no sliding scale of "alpha-ness."

If you're in a relationship, you are either LEADING or you are FOLLOWING. You are either DECIDING or you are AGREEING TO DECISIONS.

Any guy that does not have a clear sense of his own boundaries, and his own CRITERIA with regards to the women he will date, or the women won't date, CANNOT BE ALPHA.

Of course, as George Orwell will tell you, redefining terms to meet your own needs is a fine skill to have.

Well said.
This ended my 3 yr relationship, i set a boundary that my gf wanted to cross, she said she was going to go thro with it, i said if you do i can not be with you, i am not built that way and it will just end the relationship. She said ok went thro with it and an hour later text me if she can come see me to hang out as if i was joking. i ignored her all day then finally responded by calling her as she sent about 35 unstable messages blaming me, anyways i explained it calmly and precisely and told her it was over because of her doing.
two months later she still cant handle it.
too bad.
she is out.

today's men, prob younger than me as i am 38 will put up with this behavior and allow women to walk all over them, i refuse i will go get ***** elsewhere.

 

[exhausted]

I have also heard about this from pick up instructors, that you shouldnt worry about their "friends", but I think their lifestyle doesnt give them time with 1 girl ever to build enough trust either, so they just have to go with the less time-consuming careless way to handle girls, which ofc can be alfa too in a way too.

I do remember my first girlfriend after we had ****ed a few times and started getting feelings for each other saying to me "I have planned going to a few buddies of mine this evening, I wonder if I should go". I just replied straight up "no you are not". She got really happy when I said that, and even told me straight up that she was hoping I would say that, and that she wanted to stay. Later I found out that she had ****ed some of these guys, which would be something out of the question for me if she wanted to build a relationship at that time. Later I do realize that there are few situations where you will have as much power to be blunt like that with a girl this early, she must have pretty high attraction towards you, which is hard for most of us to find.

Funny thing is, she also had a little daughter. So we actually got to talk about this thing regarding Christmas etc, and I remember thinking that it would not be possible AT ALL for me to celebrate Christmas alone while she went to her ex if that would be an option in the future. Its just about respecting urself as a man with balls even though one could say the kid is above all yadayada, that went out the window when they split up. Never ever would I allow myself to lose balls like that, even though she said she would never do that I dont know if I could trust a womans heart when it comes to a childs wishes in the future, which made that relationship impossible for me. Too many variables and a kid has more power than you is impossible for most to deal with.

And guys, when it comes to a special situation like that, unless you have been with a woman that has a child you actually dont know what you would feel until you are in that place. It takes a VERY special man to be able to swallow that apple.

When it comes to the guy-friends thing, you can bet she has ****ed some of them, and put them in friendzone etc. You see this often with girls who are very popular and loving the spotlight from all the men in sight. So, if you find these instagram-loving monsters, you have to decide if you wanna try to break that up by having a conversation after she has fallen in love with you and ofc risk her dropping you, or you have to move to another city with her which is a great idea to get rid of all that background noise (my dad taught me that

Remember, it is ok to look for a woman who wants to settle down and respect her man. They are few but they exist, my byddy actually found one and they have kids etc, couldnt be more happy, he even made her cook for him. A FEW women actually wants to be treated like a traditional woman, but I think this is key to make anything work, even this: Be better than most, get a top job/education in a place where the gap between rich and poor is higher than for instance in Northern Europe where I live. Work hard is ofc a given, sadly I didnt learn it well enough myself so I am struggling with that way of living, but one cant give up on that or one will be forever alone or with a fat chick. Social status is king.

ya this here ended my almost 3 year relationship.
i attended all soccer games 2x week for 6 months, school activities where my gf ex was there, i was dominate though composed and stayed out of the way which i am sure bothered this pos guy. anyways my gf always hated her ex, he has been nothing but trouble.
anyways she called me one afternoon and told me he invited her to go with him and the child who he had that day as they split 50-50, to go paint pumpkins at this place for halloween. i have never had a problem of them doing orientation and school activities or sports with the child together but i said this is on personal time when he has the kid and i think it is inappropriate to me to go be doing family activities with them two.
told her i am not built to tolerate it and the relationship would be over.
she said she was going anyways.... she did and it was like only 30 mins
she texts me after asking if she can stop by to hang out as if i was joking.
i ignored her until i started getting 30 messages blaming **** on me haha..
i called her, explained her choice and that i explained it clearly to her and she made her choice and ruined and ended the relationship.
two months later she cant get over it and has been trying to get me back.
i refuse, stubborn or alpha i am just not built to tolerate that.
My dad passed away a few years ago and was my best friend. So in my head i think about if my dad stopped by and asked where my gf or wife was and i would respond she is with her kid and ex painting pumpkins together I can see my dad giving me the WTF are you doing look...Or if I am at the gym and see my friends and they ask what my girl is doing my response being she is with her kid and ex doing family **** together.....i just can NOT handle that ****.
has nothing to do with jealousy, just respect, which these scumbag girls just dont have....

 

[Scars]

I think society is breeding younger men to be fake alpha. Look and act the part but get weak at the knees when tested by most woman or any real world confrontation.

 

[Red Legg]

I have beat out many a young man just by being patient and maintaining frame.(they don't know how to do that yet)