The natural beta-alpha debate dies here

[CuddleJunkie]

You are either born beta or alpha. That's true. What it is not true is that a guy that acts like a beta is beta. Being a real alpha or beta is about how you see the world, being what we called alpha and beta is about behaviour.

So you grow up as a beta, your parents teach you to be nice to girls, to always do what your teachers told you to, to avoid conflict, etc. They made a beta out of you, but you got feed up, you decided this was not what you deserved, so you woke up the alpha that you really were. You got in touch with your animal nature, your testosterone, and said to yourself "**** it, I'm going to be the best". And you say "but I'm doing a bunch of **** that does not feel natural to me". Of course, you need to experience your alphaness, to become accustomed to it. But the fact that you are HERE, means you are probably alpha at heart. More time, more effort, you'll get better.

Don't you believe it? Look what real betas do. They get treated like **** all of their lives, and what do they do? They accept it, some even go as a far as to DIG it. They enjoy sacrificing themselves for nothing.

So stop doubting. You are alpha. I know this because you are reading a post on SoSuave. Actualize your real self.

 

[Infern0]

You aren't born alpha or beta we are a product of our upbringing.

"Beta" = ****ed parenting

 

[Serenity]

First you say people are born either alpha or beta, then you say parents made them either alpha or beta. How many shrooms have you been eating?

If people are born as alpha or beta then we're all basically powerless to change. Stop beliving sh!t like that, people can change their behavior and the simplest of psychological tests prove it.

You don't know what you're talking about. Your post almost sounds like an advertisement, written by a sales person instead of someone who actually knows what he's talking about. It might appeal to some, but there isn't any actual substance.

 

[Dingo]

Either by nature or nurture most all of us are Beta/AFCs until life ****s us over once or twice and we take the red pill...

 

[Asmodeus]

First you say people are born either alpha or beta, then you say parents made them either alpha or beta. How many shrooms have you been eating?

Genetics loads the gun... Environment pulls the trigger.

People are genetically predisposed to all kinds of traits. Even personality and behavioral traits (for instance psychiatric issues tend to run in families and identical twins even when separated). Also, genetics can affect the amount of testosterone your produce, your body type, your height, and other factors as genes are the blueprints for you.
Therefore, you can be born already predisposed to something. I dislike the notions of alpha and beta, as these terms have not been fully defined and are very subjective. However, despite that, one cannot argue with the facts that genetics loads the gun.

Then there is environment. Upringing is another component. I do not need to go over all the psychology and understanding of this as it should be well known to everyone, and if not then please pick up a book on developmental psychology. This provides another factor, an especially strong factor for behavior.

However, there is another factor...

But basically I think you miss the point he is trying to get at... He believes that one can defy both their nature and nurture... We are intelligent beings with logic and the ability to choose. We are not simply defined just by our genes and upbringing... We are not machines preprogramed by fate... You may not have been born an alpha, you may not have been raised to be an alpha... But you can CHOOSE to be an alpha. It may be difficult, and you may have to defy your own nature and your upbringing. But it is possible. With willpower, and with dedication one can achieve such.

 

[Tenacity]

You are either born beta or alpha. That's true.

My friend I understand your point, but I hate these one-dimensional labels. NO guy is 100% alpha or beta as described. We all are percentage beta and percentage alpha, with different variations coming out at different moments. There's no way in hell ANYBODY can be 100% beta or 100% alpha.

So you grow up as a beta, your parents teach you to be nice to girls, to always do what your teachers told you to, to avoid conflict, etc. They made a beta out of you,

Listen, not doing what your teachers told you got you kicked out of class.....getting kicked out of class means you don't graduate....not graduating means you grow up and are 30 working for minimum wage. Doing what your teachers told you meant you could graduate, go to college, and be 30 living in the middle class.

Let's assume alpha = you are in control/leading the situation.....beta = you are not in control/you are under someone else's leadership.

In some situations in life, you HAVE to take the beta role or you won't survive. Just like in some situations in life, you HAVE to take the alpha role, or you won't survive. We all are a percentage beta or alpha.

I would honestly say I'm like 65% beta and 35% alpha, why? Well, the vast majority of my day is still at work doing WTF my clients, partners, vendors, and suppliers PREFER that I do. While I get to lead the creativity of completing the tasks or requests, they are still driving the altercation because it's their money that's paying me to do what they want me to do.

You want to know how the FIRST GENERATION RICH become rich? It's through customer service. It's through finding out what the market demands and supplying that to the market. That's BETA, because your actions are being led by the demands of someone else, but as you can see...........being beta is the only way to true prosperity from the ground up.

 

[Serenity]

@Asmodeus It's an extremely bold (and poorly supported) statement to say we come pre-programmed to be alpha or beta (whatever that means). This thread starts by presuming it's true that people are born either alpha or beta. I don't believe that, how would anyone go about proving such a statement? It needs a clear and universally agreed upon definition of what alpha and beta is, as you point how subjective these terms are. Then it has to be proved it was genetics and not environment that make us one way or another, it's practically impossible to rule out environment as there's a huge amount of factors at play here.

Even if we knew 100% if we were born alpha or beta, it would certainly kill absolutely all hope and motivation for those labeled beta to even try improving themselves. So logically it's a bad idea to even temp with the thought that one may be born a beta, that deep inside they're weak submissive losers. Some men will buy into that sh!t and use it as an excuse to stay the same, making it even harder to motivate them for the better.

We know we have to do something to get to where we want to be. Don't feed helpless men with more excuses to avoid taking responsibility and actions for themselves. Something as simple as validating that it's possible to be born fvcked in life is enough, there's no proof of that.

 

[ImTheDoubleGreatest!]

To people who think that you are born alpha or beta and cannot change that, I have one word for you:

Epigenetics.

 

[cola]

You are either born beta or alpha. False. Thats like saying you are either born an olympic gold medalist or an average joe. That's true. What it is not true is that a guy that acts like a beta is beta. Being a real alpha or beta is about how you see the world, being what we called alpha and beta is about behaviour.

So you grow up as a beta, your parents teach you to be nice to girls, This is in itself is not bad advice. You should be nice to everyone until provoked.to always do what your teachers told you to, The goal of school is to pass, is it not?to avoid conflict, Well you certainly shouldn't go around seeking it.etc. They made a beta out of you, but you got feed up, you decided this was not what you deserved, so you woke up the alpha that you really were. But you just said you are either born Alpha or Not. So if you are born Alpha how can anyone make you beta?You got in touch with your animal nature, your testosterone, and said to yourself "**** it, I'm going to be the best". And you say "but I'm doing a bunch of **** that does not feel natural to me". Of course, you need to experience your alphaness, to become accustomed to it. But the fact that you are HERE, means you are probably alpha at heart. More time, more effort, you'll get better.

Don't you believe it? Look what real betas do. They get treated like **** all of their lives Usually there fault they get treated that way., and what do they do? They accept it, some even go as a far as to DIG it. They enjoy sacrificing themselves for nothing. Thats masochism, a mental disorder.

So stop doubting. You are alpha. I know this because you are reading a post on SoSuave. Reading a post on SoSuave wont make you an alpha. Actualize your real self.

Being Alpha or Beta is as simple as:
A man who has his own code of values be it moral or amoral that he follows that over-rides emotions vs one who does not.

 

[CuddleJunkie]

@Grewd I feel a lot of negativity coming from you. You fail to completely grasp what I was trying to say, this being my fault. You see, a lot of times I have the background knowledge stored up in my mind I just dump my thoughts on a succinct manner. Let me explain things in more detail.

Many great philosophers have always made a distinction that Asmodeus called nature/nurture, some called it character/personality, temperament/character. The label does not matter, what matters is what these terms mean.

You are with a fixed set of basic characteristics: how fast do you react emotionally? When confronted with trouble do you get angry or melancholic? Which one is your innate response to problems, flight or fight? Do you see my point? You have, ingrained in your genetics, a basic set of ways to confront the world. If you would not have this, you would have no way to interact with it! This is what we call nurture/character/temperament.

Then, you have your upbringing. In which society were you raised? Depending on this, you will have a determined set of moral and conduct rules. From simple things as how to eat, to more complex ones as how to grieve. This, what we call nurture/personality, ALWAYS tend to betafy the person, as there can't be so many leaders in society, and peons always came in handy.

Many of you don't like the alpha/beta labels, I understand the reasons why, but if we go down that route, no label would make justice to the object it refers to. If you are interested on this, Schopenhauer makes a superb analysis on his major work. So I will still use them. An alpha is a guy that has MORE innate traits that make him more dominant over the world than traits that make him try to flight, and a beta is a guy that has MORE innate traits making him obey, appease and flight, than traits making him trying to make his will on the world directly (read Nietzsche if you want to understand how betas do really make their wills over indirect ways). Many of these traits are altered by upbringing, as if you were naturally beta but born under a noble house, they would try to infuse alphaness in you, and the other way around. Now, the BASICS are genetic. No way around this.

How do I know this? I've been working on redpilling a close friend who had a rough breakup and asked me for help after witnessing my change from day to day. He wanted this. He could not make it, every advice I gave him, he would not follow. Going to the gym was a nightmare for him. You get the picture. So a FAT, and I mean FAAAAAAAT girl gave him attention, and now they are a couple that has yet to spend a day apart since they met 3 weeks ago. There are some guys that just don't have it.

@Asmodeus, I'm glad you saw my point. My explaining and use of language was poor, I was in a hurry though. You made an interesting remark. Can we change our nature just by sheer will? Really, really interesting. At first glance, I would say no, but this got me thinking. What about Testosterone Replacement Therapy? Surely this is a way of changing our basic nature. Could this turn a natural beta into an alpha? Human beings are the only animals capable of changing their nature...fascinating. Also there are minor things as eye color. Darker colors are perceived as more dominant, so we could change lighter colors to darker ones to "alpha up" a guy.

@Tenaticy, you make a REALLY good point. And this is precisely where I think the DarkTriad thing falls in. As you say, if you are Alpha 100% of the time you are ****ed up, so you have to be beta...or rather ACT beta. See how DarkTriad is perceived as manipulative? Well, it is the only way as a guy deciding to win can do so in a civilized society. So I would say, in a tribal society, a more bold approach of being alpha would give you the upper hand, in a civilized one, you have to be DarkTriad.

And we also have a thing that we have greatly lost. I don't have a problem with being beta towards my close group of friends, because empathy is really what make humans, humans, what made us survive as a group. I embrace empathy, but, sadly, we have lost in many ways and places the sense of connection people used to have with others. We live in more individualized settings each passing year...Sad!

 

[Serenity]

@CuddleJunkie I don't follow philosophers, I do my own philosophy. People are evidently not with a fixed set of basic characteristics, the examples you list are not fixed. Reaction patterns can change if a person overcomes his fear. A flight response might change into a fight response. Emotional reaction times increases to make sure you don't get stepped on again. A melancholic reaction changes to anger.

It's not negativity, but you might experience it as that. I'm simply just disagreeing with you. I do understand what you're talking about, I just do not agree. I will agree there is some basic way of interacting with the world, before being taught anything. But I refuse to believe it involves any complex personality features like being alpha or beta. It would be more like knowing how to breathe and suck on tits...

 

[CuddleJunkie]

@CuddleJunkie I don't follow philosophers, I do my own philosophy.

That's a big mistake to make.

 

[Deep Dish]

My friend I understand your point, but I hate these one-dimensional labels. NO guy is 100% alpha or beta as described. We all are percentage beta and percentage alpha, with different variations coming out at different moments. There's no way in hell ANYBODY can be 100% beta or 100% alpha.

It’s true that no guy is 100% alpha. Too much alphaness is actually corrosive and will result in overgaming. But there are some guys who are 100% beta, which would be borderline omega. Betas are guys in the middle of the road, salt of the earth, but omegas are freaks at the bottom of the totem pole who are ridiculed.

https://heartiste.wordpress.com/2011/05/20/omega-of-the-month/

 

[Tenacity]

It’s true that no guy is 100% alpha. Too much alphaness is actually corrosive and will result in overgaming. But there are some guys who are 100% beta, which would be borderline omega. Betas are guys in the middle of the road, salt of the earth, but omegas are freaks at the bottom of the totem pole who are ridiculed.

https://heartiste.wordpress.com/2011/05/20/omega-of-the-month/

I think we need to universally define what alpha and beta are. My definition and Cola's definition for example, are completely different.

If alpha and beta are based on my definitions, it's virtually impossible for any man to be 100% of any based on his entire makeup. You are beta in some conditions, alpha in other conditions, a combination of alpha/beta in other conditions. From a business standpoint, entrepreneurs who "do whatever the hell they want to do" don't make it anywhere in life. It's the difference between the starving artist and the business artist.

- Starving artist = Paints whatever the hell he wants to paint. That's alpha. But in the process doesn't sell shyt.

- Business artist = Goes around asking people what they like in a painting, then paints what that particular market demands and sells it for a premium to them in return. That's beta, because he's not just doing whatever the fvck he wants to do, he's following the lead/demands of someone else.

Who would you rather be, the starving artist or the business artist? I'll take the business artist.

 

[Deep Dish]

I think we need to universally define what alpha and beta are. My definition and Cola's definition for example, are completely different. If alpha and beta are based on my definitions, it's virtually impossible for any man to be 100% of any based on his entire makeup. You are beta in some conditions, alpha in other conditions, a combination of alpha/beta in other conditions.

Where in the life a guy who spends his day sucking a baby pacifier, as in the link, anywhere remotely alpha? There are guys without the mental fortitude to change his conditions to alpha. Universally defining an alpha has always been a mess, but you know it when you see it.

It's funny you mention artists. I personally am an artist, with a day job to pay the bills.

 

[MrWiggles]

gay

 

[zekko]

If alpha and beta are based on my definitions, it's virtually impossible for any man to be 100% of any based on his entire makeup. You are beta in some conditions, alpha in other conditions, a combination of alpha/beta in other conditions.

Agree with Tenacity here. The alpha/beta labels are good for making a point, but no one who acts like an overpowered gorilla who only does what he wants, and only caters to his own desires and impulses, is going to get anywhere in life. Women want a strong man, a leader, and a top dog. Beyond that, most of this alpha/beta talk is nonsense.

By the way, I disagree with the OP's premise that betas get treated like sh!t their entire lives. High level betas do quite well. They get many of the benefits of the alpha without taking the risks.

 

[Serenity]

That's a big mistake to make.

Perhaps, but philosophers thought for themselves and so do I.

 

[daddymonsterpoodle]

There is no nature OR nurture. That is a false dichotomy. There is nature and nurture.
I am not %100 alpha but I am more alpha than most of my married friends. SFW.
I am just trying to be the version of me that feels natural and who I like. Alpha/beta/omega redpill purple pill/ who gives a fvck.
Be the version of yourself that you like, live a life you are content with. Everything else is meaningless.

 

[guru1000]

Starving artist = Paints whatever the hell he wants to paint. That's alpha. But in the process doesn't sell shyt.

Business artist = Goes around asking people what they like in a painting, then paints what that particular market demands and sells it for a premium to them in return. That's beta, because he's not just doing whatever the fvck he wants to do, he's following the lead/demands of someone else.

Au contraire ol' friend: The business artist is alpha. He is doing exactly what he wants, which is to accomplish HIS FINANCIAL MISSION, by tending to the needs of others. He's congruent with his financial desire (which supersedes his lazy inclination) shamelessly, relentlessly, and unapologetically. He will break heads to accomplish his financial mission and destroy any obstacles before him. He will tend to the marketplace like no other, as he knows that "strict form" can crack in a hurricane, but "shape shifters" triumph. His primary mission is to WIN, and thus he relegates all his ancillary missions to the less ambitious. He will do whatever is necessary to achieve this aim. He's the alpha. A winner, at all costs.

The starving artist (assuming he wants to financially succeed and be a mogul in his industry) is incongruent with HIS PRIMARY AIM, as he fails to take any actions that actualize this superseding desire, as it may be uncomfortable. And so he remains within his comfort zone, and fools himself by reaffirming that he is doing exactly what he wants to do. But he's not self-actualizing or remaining true to himself, as he had a superseding desire to be something more, which he fails to take action on. He's worse than the beta. He's a fool.