Paying for drinks/dates

[reset]

I did a search, but I don't see this topic in the MM forum.

Rollo talks a lot about shaming tactics from women, and one I'm hearing now is that if the man doesn't pay the date, he is actually being feminine and passive, and is attracting more masculine, ball-busting like girls because he's giving his role of pursuer up, and feminine women will be repelled by men who don't pay for their drinks/dinner/dates etc.

To me, it just sounds like women being afraid of losing an advantage they've always had, free stuff.

How do you see it? First date is coffee, do you pay for that? Does she pay for her own? Do you look cheap if you buy that first cup? Do you look needy if you buy that first cup?

And how does this work in a bar, when buying drinks? From what I can tell, many women are HEAVILY INVESTED in the concept of men buying them drinks. Like it's a birth-right. I can understand wanting to be pampered, but I can't see why they can't understand that guys don't like being used for money and would want to avoid it when possible.

Let me know what you guys think about this.

 

[trd323]

On the first few dates you have you have to pay, its just polite. But Dont go overboard either. I usually tell them that I am going to take them to one of my favorite "hidden gem" places(coffee shop, mom and pop restaurant). The rule of thumb, I think is, you should always do something for a girl because you want to and not looking for any validation from her.

 

[ChumpNoMore]

I think the confusion around not paying or keeping dates on the cheap has to do with the hazard of determining a chicks true interest level. We know that many of them are professional daters and/or broke or have the entitlement mentality, feigning interest to get nice dinners, shows and drinks paid for.

If she will come along on cheap dates without indignation and with enthusiasm, then the odds are better shes into you and not the free meals and entertainment. I make good coin, and dont mind springing to do nice things IF a chicks into me. Edit: Think bribe vs. reward concept.

However, I refuse to pay to simply have female company; thus until a chick has been along on two low key "dates" I dont make big plans. Of course my buddies wives parrot the "wine and dine her" line, so some more input from folks here would be re-affirming.

Edit: That said, I still wonder if paying for a date helps establish the prize mentality with them. The city I'm in has no shortage of dudes making good coin willing to throw it at any life support system for a vagina, so the low key / cheap date thing seem a tough sell here.

 

[Colossus]

I will either pay or split the tab. 95% of girls Ive dated have at least gone for their purse when we get the check. It's just polite. Even if they had no intentions of paying, the gesture is just good manners.

It just depends on the girl and what we are doing. First date I almost always pay. After that if they offer to go halves or get the check, I usually wont refuse.

 

[Colossus]

However, I refuse to pay to simply have female company; thus until a chick has been along on two low key "dates" I dont make big plans. Of course my buddies wives parrot the "wine and dine her" line, so some more input from folks here would be re-affirming.

I think this is good practice.

"Wining and dining" is for later, if her interest is high and she has shown some character. Under no circumstances should you drop more than 20 bucks on a girl who hasnt qualified herself and shown consistent interest.

I also go the "low key" route. Some women will shame you on this saying you're 'cheap', but this is just irrational feminized rubbish. Dont buy it. If she IS indeed into you, it shouldnt matter much where you go so long as you're together and the atmosphere is right. I like nice parks, or quiet hole-in-the-wall places that offer a good ambiance.

 

[Francisco d'Anconia]

Who Pays for Dinner

 

[NewMan]

I beleive there are a few schools of thought here - and you can use any - depending on the situation:

1) Low key/low expense

Keep the budget amnd acitivty low dollars. If she's into you and not the date/activity, then she'll agree and you have a barometer with which to gauge her interest level. A way to weed out the gold diggers.

2) flash the cash and spend the $'s

Here you make no bones about it. Your flashing your money in order to get the pus. As long as you understand the dynamic - i.e. you get s#x she get's stuff - all is good. Use and abuse.

3) The Promise of money

Here she knows you've got coin to spend - but you never ever spend it on her - you just threaten to. She rides in your fancy wheels - see's got sweet pad, maybe, just maybe eye's the balance on your checking account. you tell her about your boat at the lake and tell her you'll take her up in a month or two - but of couse never ever do. You use her weakness against her....


any others?

 

[samspade]

I agree, the man ought to pay for the first few dates...but keep them inexpensive. No fancy dinners or helicopter rides.

As Colossus said, if a girl is into you, she will (usually) offer to pay part of the way at some point, maybe by the second date. I encounter this a lot, and I don't find it emasculating; I can tell when she generally wants to pay for a round of drinks because she's having a good time, wants to be with me, etc.

But pay for the first date, and tip well.

 

[Mr. Me]

Let's get this right: In this day and age we need to weed out the Golddiggers and Users, and that's easily handled by not offering expensive nights out, but inexpensive quick dates. They will insist on upgrading your date choices or refuse to go out for anything less then a three course meal. Goodbye, weeds.

So you go out for a cup of coffee, or a drink, or something inexpensive, and the guy does treat. You're the one that did the inviting. He springs a few bucks for a drink. Maybe an appetizer. Shoot some pool. Whatever. This isn't about equal paychecks, nor is this about treating her like your male buddies. This is about male/female dynamics when it comes to love/dating/relationships. You're not trying to build attraction with guy friends here, nor are you trying to manage female equity issues... It's chivalrous, but chivalry has taken a bad rep because it's been misunderstood as the same as being a doormat. It's not. Chivalrous guys aren't doormats any more then the chivalrous Knights of old were. It signals class.

It triggers comfort in a woman, when you're taking care of things. That shows leadership and consideration. And comfort level is key in progressing things along. The cheap guy who insists she pay her portion sends the opposite signal. Then when she walks out on him because he's "cheap" uses her walking out as proof that he was right. What a nut.

Not to be mistaken with the Golddigger who calls you cheap, not because you expected her to pay, but because you didn't want to take her to Nobu.

And then, you DO want to see the woman offer to pay some (not that you'll take her up on it). Or you do want to see her buy a round, or treat you to dessert later or offer to cook you dinner or invite you out on her dime, or something. IOW, you need to see that she's not just there with an entitlement mindset (which she could have even if she has HIGH interest in you), but to make an offer that shows she's a sharing and giving person too.

Then when you have someone worthy, down the road you can spring for something nice if you want to treat the both of you. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[reset]

Thanks for the responses so far guys. I can see if you invited her, how it's nice to pay. I don't want to overcompensate so much for not wanting to be used that I come across as defensive/weak.

And I have never really had a problem with a girl not pulling out her purse like was mentioned earlier. I think that's classy, and it makes me feel more like she's there for me, not for my wallet.

I suppose at the end of the day, it really doesn't matter. If you're worried that she'll think you're weak if you pay, you're already weak. If you don't care, it comes off as confident. If you're paying for helicopter rides because you love doing it and you want some company, that's one thing, if you're doing it because you are trying to purchase a future wife, that's pathetic.

I guess it's less about what she thinks about you and more of you being aware of how she is treating you and if she is right for you, not the other way around of you trying to fit into her world.

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

Law 40: Despise the Free Lunch
What is offered for free is dangerous— it usually involves either a trick or a hidden obligation. What has worth is worth paying for. By paying your own way you stay clear of gratitude, guilt, and deceit. It is also often wise to pay the full price— there is no cutting corners with excellence. Be lavish with your money and keep it circulating, for generosity is a sign and a magnet for power.

Read this again, what has worth is worth paying for. The feminization of culture has simultaneously distorted the formality of a man paying for a date into a form of masculine control while still an being a required masculine obligation. It's a Catch 22 - screwed if you do, screwed if you don't, and there are two conflicting POVs for this.

The first is akin to the Boondock Saints cartoon FRANCISCO aptly link for us and one I've expressed on a few occasions; as a man in this life, you will ALWAYS pay for sex in one form or another. That may be buying coffee, drinks, dinner, a concert ticket, a wedding ring or a mortgage payment, but always trust that there is going to be a cost associated with you and sex. Whether it's with your nebulous 'Quality Woman' or the prostitute you picked up off the Trail for half an hour - you're going to pay.

The second POV is the 'Chivalry's not dead' approach. Nothing has served women better over the years than to convince the male populace at large that it's his codified moral obligation to prove his provisioning capacity to her in an effort to achieve her intimacy. This POV has had a long history of perpetual qualifications for a man, but the holdover, and starting point today is paying for the drinks / date / etc based on a traditional, gender specific, obligation.

In light of that, if it makes you feel a sense of completed duty in paying for a woman's drinks / meal, then by all means continue to do so, but not because a woman's convinced you of a moral obligation. My approach is to recognize this 'tradition' for what it really is. You're a Man. Men of power despise a free lunch; not from business associates and certainly not from a woman he intends to make his pleasure.

What has worth is worth paying for. By paying your own way you stay clear of gratitude, guilt, and deceit.

You also stay clear of obligation. There can never, and will never, be an egalitarian equality between the sexes we are different; and the good news is this is the way women want it in spite of their feminization conditionings. Covertly, women want a Man who initiates, approaches, drives, and yes, pays the tab. However, when overtly pressed about 'paying her way', she is forced into a position of denying this because her feminization has taught her "she is her own person" and the expectations of her day say she should at least pay half, not be afraid to approach a man, initiate a date herself, etc. These are masculine expectations, and much like the "virtues" of the professional woman, feminization conditions her to equate her value on masculine terms, while still being a woman. The idea being that a Man 'should' be attracted to the same masculine traits she finds attractive. And predictably, innate gender nature continues to contradict this.

So yes, pay for the drinks, date, etc., just know what you're paying for. What has worth is worth paying for - is she worth the payment? You are the PRINCE, your attentions have value, does she appreciate them? Have a plan, make the decisions, direct the course of the date. If she's unresponsive or only luke warm in her reciprocation – NEXT! All women are opportunist to some degree; accept that, it's simply how the world works. Golddiggers are women who overtly acknowledge this opportunism in word and behavior; they're not too hard to recognize if you want to see them.

 

[Duffdog]

If I like the girl after we do something simple like dinner somewhere-- I usually just say "I bought dinner, you're buying the drinks." It has never been an issue with the type of girls I like. I could see it being an issue with a starving student type girl, but I stay away from those. I am more into the executive, professional type.

I would say don't be afraid to tell the girl what you were thinking.

 

[reset]

Good post Rollo. I guess it's a perspective thing. Francisco's link shows what I may really be thinking, that I'm in some sort of prostitute situation, and that's not really where I want to be. I don't want to PAY to have a woman. I want it to be because of who I am.

I suppose the major factor here is Gold diggers, if you offer to buy them coffee and they want something more expensive, you just saved a hell of a lot of money.

 

[Tazman]

I'll have to agree with paying especially if you do the inviting. It just won't ever be a good thing to demand that the chick you're with pay her way, as has been mentioned, even if she likes you it most likely will spoil the mood.

If she isn't worth it just don't take her out anymore, I guess I'm just repeating what's already been said.

 

[The Bat]

blueblue, Rollo actually has 48 laws....and some guy named Robert Green stole them and put them in a book format with ludicrous references to historical figures....

This is a repost of what I posted in another thread:

Well, first rule you should eat, chew, swallow, and digest is that FIRST DATES should NEVER involve DINNER dates. Never. Ever.

So casual, yet so boring. What's the point? To get to know each other? You'll know more about her the morning after you bang her brains out than you ever will on a casual, comfy dinner date.

Anyway, if it's dinner couple of dates later or after you've been seeing (and banging) each other for some time (maybe 5-7 weeks...but that's my rule..yours can be different), then it's a matter of YOUR interest in the girl.

Yes, I said it right. Having an expensive dinner AND paying for it depends on how much YOU are interested in HER. If you really dig the girl and she has shown high interest in you, then reward her to a nice treat at some fancy dinner. Now you see why I do this only after 5-7 weeks? Because by this point, I have gauged her interest in me.

My first "dates" are usually at bars/nightclubs or at her place or some recreational activity (like mini golfing or bowling or go kart races or comedy clubs). I don't fork out money for her bar tab or entrance fees because she is an adult and can pay for her own things. So what if it's a date? Am I trying to impress her? Hell no. I already impressed her by talking to her, building some rapport with her, getting her phone number, making plans to go out with her, and getting her a$$ out to where we're at right now (the date).

It's her turn to impress me. And that means I don't got to do sh!t for her. She can pay for her own and amaze me with her personality, quirky behavior, sense of humor, secure confidence, feminine beliefs, sweet attitude, etc.

There is a difference between being cheap AND setting a frame in your control by being confident in your ability to attract her and amaze her with your confident attitude. You have to learn to recognize those differences and work on them to be like the guy who has complete frame control.

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

I want it to be because of who I am.

This is an uncomfortable truth, and a lot of guys don't like to hear it, but your capacity to pay is PART of who you are.

Your accomplishments, your career, your passions, your aspirations, your physique, are all PART of you. There are parts of you that are more attractive than others, but the sum is what makes you who you are. There was a recent thread on the MM forum a week ago regarding career choices and how this relates to life and women etc. I realize this may be an unpopular opinion on this, but what you choose to do as a vocation is part of who you are. It may not be your source of personal identity, but for better or worse, your vocation and it's associations become a part of your identity. It's similar to how you look physically is part of you. It's a comfortable fiction to think that women are less interested in a man's physique, or should be attracted to a guy unbiased by what he does, but these are all part of a whole.

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

You'll know more about her the morning after you bang her brains out than you ever will on a casual, comfy dinner date.

Gospel.

 

[reset]

I hear what you're saying Rollo. I suppose it's the difference between a man knowing he is a whole package, and a man who thinks "I have to buy a girl's attention".

I'm less concerned with actually paying and more interested in how I feel about myself when and if I pay, if I do, it has to come from a place of power. But on this topic, of how women "expect" a man to pay I have to do it for my reasons, and because I think it's to my advantage, and something I want to do, without the feeling I'm being shamed into it. So it's more about my own motivations.

Fortunately I've got the sexy physique.

 

[ChumpNoMore]

Take her with you on something you were going to do anyways

Yes this is a sound idea.

I invite 'em on dog walks with coffee, shopping (for me), or a quick bite or drinks at an inexpensive place. Because its something you were going to do anyhow, if they flake you're not out any time, because it's low key and impromptu (and low cost) their enthusiasm to attend serves as an interest level filtering purpose as well...

That said, many many chicks today are so socially conditioned to feel entitled / empowered by you "paying for her company" that following the fiscally tight approach may limit your leads...

Also, I've found than not many women today have genuine interests outside endlessly soliciting ego boosts and validation seeking male attention, that even the frugal dates approach can still net you an AW / flake...

 

[reset]

There are a multitude of issues at hand here.....and my honest opinion is that if you are asking this question, then you are already in the wrong position.

Well, fortunately it's only a question that needs to be asked once. And it's interesting that there is no unanimous opinion on this. Everyone seems to agree that gold diggers should be spotted early and filtered out. Not everyone agrees if you should pay or not.

In the end I think it's less about paying, and how you think of yourself and subsequently, how you come off. If you don't care, you can pay and not come off weak. If you care, you can not pay, and come off as weak.