Your Silly Beliefs Survey

[Deep Dish]

Shiftkey:
Check out these two sites and tell me what you think. They both have forums.

http://www.psipog.net/

http://www.learnrv.com/

The sites are highly questionable, the latter clearly a money making scam, and the people on the forums might make for good guinea pigs. I need to pick up the Michael Shermer book Why People Believe Weird Things and the people on those forums should provide as real-life illustrations to me. I will certainly not engage in conversation with them, which would be an utter waste of time, but be the fly on the wall.

 

[Abbott]

Where's the choice for "I don't believe in any of that?"

I think that anything and everything can be explained scientifically, even if we haven't yet figured out why.

A good example of this is gravity. Everyone knows that it exists, but no one knows why objects have it.


Ben

 

[Deep Dish]

Abbott:
Where's the choice for "I don't believe in any of that?"

Ben, that is a good question but:

1) A "none of the above" option would have taken up precious space.
2) There was not even enough room to do all the options I had wanted. I couldn’t do dowsing or remote viewing, for example.
3) Solid critical thinking is not a focus of my scrutiny.

 

[Bling]

ESP... I know it's real because I have it. I had a funny feeling something happened in New York the day of 9-11. When my teachers told me, it was odd. But this stuff happens to me a lot.

 

[Deep Dish]

Shiftkey:
I don't believe in bigfoot. Some of the stories about Atlantis might be possible, but I don't believe some of the weird fictional stories about it.

I just noticed I forgot to place the Loch Ness Monster on my list. I’m curious if you would rate yourself as believing or not believing in the slimy little serpent?

 

[penkitten]

people believe what they are most comfortable with. if one guy thought he saw a ghost, then to him they are real. he can provide himself with enough proof that they exist. to another guy, who has never thought he saw a ghost, may never look at the first guy's so called evidence and be made to believe in them.

some people live in a black and white / right and wrong world. they want hard evidence before they can feel certain about things.

other people live in the gray area, and can easily be convinced to believe something.

when you are doing all this research, take note at how offended people get when trying to tell you their beliefs.

 

[manuva]

Originally posted by Deep Dish
An alternative ‘medicine’ whereby supposed medicine is diluted to the point that not one molecule of the supposed medicine is present in a dose. Patients may report feeling better but only due to the placebo effect.
Chiropractors claim there is a mystical intangible spiritual ‘chi’, hence the namesake. Chiropracty certainly has benefits to patients for back/joint problems, hence the disclaimer in my list entry, but a ‘chi’?

There is currently a $1 Million Paranormal Challenge offered by the James Randi Educational Foundation (JREF) to anyone who can demonstrate a paranormal claim in a controlled environment. Homeopathy and chiropracty (beyond back/joint problems) are explicitedly on the list of qualified paranormal/psuedoscience claims. In fact, I am trying to put together a $10,000 Challenge of my own money to anyone who can satisfactorily successfully pass the JREF Challenge. I happily encourage any doctor practicing homeopathy or any chiropractor to take the Challenge. To wit, people making paranormal claims have either refused to be tested or have thoroughly flunked and the test has been in place for 30 years. I eagerly wait to give $10,000 of my own money—basically everything I own—to homeopathists.

Do you place naturopathy and kinesiology in the same category as homeopathy?


You fail to address my other questions:

1) Have you ever tried it? Have you had a serious health problem which you've taken to a homeopath?

I know a lot of skeptics (I was one myself) who have been forced to admit there's a lot in it.

2) You haven't answered or defended you biased position. A balanced research essay will weigh up both sides of the argument and draw a conclusion based on their findings. Your thread title and questionnaire, along with your writing tells us you have already made up your mind as to the outcome of your 'reasearch'.

Your very definition of homeopathy - Patients may report feeling better but only due to the placebo effect - telegraphs your closed mind. How do you know its only a placebo? Surely if you were genuinely interested in finding the truth you would attempt to understand the reasoning behind their medicines and healing processes, as well as interviewing people who have had successful treatments from them. I recommend you even - God forbid - try it yourself.

THEN you should reach your conclusion. Not before.

Personally I have seen naturopaths and a kinesiologist in the past, both with great success.

A chronic skin condition (*EXTREME* itching after showers, so bad I was afraid to shower) as well as chronic fatigue (sleeping 18+ hours a day) led me to every doctor in a hundred kilometres. Nothing they prescribed remotely helped. They wanted to give me some ultra-potent pain killer for my itchy skin, and their suggestions for my fatigue ranged from hopeless to laughable.

One doctor even said, "Most people overcome their chronic fatigue after about ten years. You've just got to sleep it off until then."

Great. He actually told me to go to sleep for the next ten years. Other doctors told me similarly unhelpful things. One of them told me I probably wasn't sleeping properly and told me to use a nasal spray to clear my sinuses before bed. Sleeping 18 hours a day but not sleeping properly??

At my wits end I was persuaded (very VERY reluctantly) to see a naturopath/kinesiologist. She told me a lot of things about my body which made a LOT of sense to me. She prescribed various herbs and supplements, as well as demanding I eliminate various foods from my diet.

The effect was unbelievable. Within two months I was training again (boxing) and capable of running farther and faster then ever before. My personal best time for a 3.2km run - which I set before I had chronic fatigue - was slashed by 90 seconds on my SECOND ATTEMPT. I hadn't been for a run in 6 months, and on the second run I went on, I smashed my PB.

My endurance in the ring was phenomenal. My reflexes were better, my timing and power improved incredibly. My coach accused my of spending the past 6 months training at another gym - he was unable to believe I'd spent the past six months in bed barely able to make breakfast.

The extreme itching, which had driven me to the point of insanity and made me afraid to bathe, disappeared within a week of my first visit to this naturopath/kinesiologist. There is simply no way this could be the result of a placebo. There is no willpower strong enough on this earth to simply 'pretend' the itching had stopped.

I saw this healer for 3 months. She brought me back from the dead. What western medicine admitted it had no idea about (chronic fatigue and the cause of my itching), this healer casually explained what had caused it and how she was going to help me fix it.

A few people I've told this to have said, "It was placebo effect." What an insult to my intelligence. I am an intelligence, educated person. I had (past tense) strong faith in western medicine and considered it the be-all and the end-all of health and healing. Doctors failed me again and again. Every drug and remedy they gave me I used as per instructions, waiting desperately for my life to change. Nothing happened. Again and again, nothing happened.

I refused to acknowledge naturopaths and other 'hippy stuff' as an alternative to doctors. It was suggested to me numerous times - sometimes even by doctors themsevles - and I laughed at people who believed in those 'witchdoctors'.

Eventually someone close to me just made an appointment for me to see them without asking me. I was very very reluctant - even angry at her for making the appointment - but I went. My life changed from that day.

So go and laugh at the 'placebos' these people offer. Keep your mind narrow. It doesn't bother me really. I can't blame you; I was the same. Until you have a problem doctors can't solve you're probably never going to try anything else. Again, I can't blame you. But I recommend you at least try it before you dismiss it. You could find yourself pleasantly (un)surprised at the result.

 

[Shiftkey]

Originally posted by Deep Dish
I just noticed I forgot to place the Loch Ness Monster on my list. I’m curious if you would rate yourself as believing or not believing in the slimy little serpent?

Same place I put dragons. Imagination based on dinosaur bones.

 

[Shiftkey]

She prescribed various herbs and supplements, as well as demanding I eliminate various foods from my diet.

manuva,

What foods and herbs?

Did you ever visit a licensed dietitian/nutritionist?

 

[Deep Dish]

Manuva,

From what I can gather, at this moment I would not place naturopathy along with homeopathy. From what I can gather, naturopathy is based upon the premise that the body is self-healing and heals in a healthy environment, for which seems reasonable and plausible (when within the realm of established medicine). Certainly, naturopathy contains many nuggets of good advice such as don’t smoke and eat healthy. However, any metaphysical/mystical claims within naturopathy would warrant the paranormal and bogus.

As for kinesiology, according to the Skeptic’s Dictionary:

According to the International College of Applied Kinesiology, the therapy "is based on chiropractic principles and requires manual manipulation of the spine, extremities and cranial bones as the structural basis of its procedures." However, Goodheart and his followers unite chiropractic with traditional Chinese medicine (among other things); not only do they accept the notion of chi and the meridians of acupuncture, they posit a universal intelligence of a spiritual nature running through the nervous system.

It is this second half of kinesiology which quite clearly I would place within the paranormal and hence bogus. I mean, ‘universal intelligence of a spiritual nature’? Again, as with chiropractic, I accept there may be some legitimacy in treatments but not when it comes to their mystical/metaphysical claims.

It is tremendously flawed for people to rely upon their own experiences in assessing whether something works or not and hence there is no need, and a need quite on the contrary, for me to personally dabble in homeopathy to determine its effectiveness. But, to explain why is beyond the scope of this discussion considering that I promised earlier on that I wouldn’t argue with people in this thread. I don’t want to discourage people from posting paranormal arguments or create the expectation that I will engage in a debate with them over some paranormal claim.

Shiftkey:
Same place I put dragons. Imagination based on dinosaur bones.

Good times.

 

[Don Ronny]

You skeptics are truly funny to me. You talk about how something like Chi doesn't exist until a scientist comes along and puts a fancy name on it that makes you feel intelligent.

Example:

Taoists have stated for centuries that everything is nothing and everything at the same time and that we all create this world with our minds. Throughout this time, western civilization has laughed at their confusing view of the world. That is until scientists reach the same conundrum when viewing matter at it's very core. To this day, our most advanced experts cannot determine if matter is composed of particles (matter) or waves (energy). In fact, research has suggested that the random behavior of these elements were completely dependant on the person observing them! On the deepest of levels, science has begun to lose its objectivity and confirm the idea that we create our own reality with our minds. Go figure.

As far as "chi" goes...

In San Francisco, the American Foundation of Traditional Chinese Medicine is working with Professor William Tiller of Stanford University on a collaborative research project exploring bioluminescence, expression of photons from the Qigong practitioner. So far they have made some interesting discoveries using kirlian photography, a technique for photographing energetic spectrum outside of our range of vision. It was pioneered by the infamous Nicolas Tesla himself... a man who many considered insane until he went and proved his theories true with his inventions.

I dont want to bust your bubble dude. I understand that skeptics are a necessary part of our world. Somebody has to call BS or a lot of mindless sheep will be lost.

But look at history... nobody celebrates the skeptics, because ultimately, they stand in the way of progress with their rigid way of thinking. You are the type of folks who wanted to kill people like Galileo or Aristotle for challenging your small view of the world.

In a sense, skeptics are just a different brand of sheep who follow the conventional knowledge of the day as if it were holy scripture. They deny the validity of any other belief system, an act as defensive (and annoying) as any fundamental Christian or Muslim.

The world is not as black and white as you want it to be Mr. Dish. Sure there is a lot of phoney crap out there and even more conmen making money off it.. But if you really want to make a profound impact on our culture and society as a whole, then I suggest you forget about Pulitzers and try to think with an open mind.

People like Einstein, Ben Franklin, Tom Edison, etc are all celebrated figures in history because they defied "common sense" and pushed our level of understanding to another level. In the end, it is much more difficult and rewarding to prove something exists, than to disprove the superstitions of other cultures.

You never responded to the link I posted about the doctor who sought to disprove acupuncture only to find that it works. It is an interesting article that discusses the difference between empirical and controlled scientific testing. Here is some food for thought, my friend.

Placebo Effect in Question

To put my book on alternative medicine in perspective, 20 years ago I set out to disprove acupuncture. I thought it was full of beans because my mentor, Patrick Wall, said that acupuncture was just placebo, a distraction. He had traveled to China to investigate it, and he knew more about pain than I'll ever know, so who was I to argue? But a Chinese student of mine working in my lab studied acupuncture on anesthetized animals. If it was placebo, then it should not have worked, because for placebos you need consciousness. I thought it was very fishy that acupuncture worked in farm animals, That it also worked on infants had me wondering as well. So we did these experiments on anesthetized animals where there was no placebo going on, and we got acupuncture to block the pain pathways

Empirical vs Controlled Testing

Let me make myself clear. I think there are two ways of being a scientist or even a modern person. There's the empirical approach, which is trial and error: Does it work? If it works, then I'll use it. In alternative medicine you see this in spades. If chicken soup works, use it. You don't have to have a theory about chicken soup. Then there's the theoretical approach. To me, those are the two ways of handling yourself. If acupuncture works, then use it; it doesn't matter whether it works through chi or endorphins.

Modern medicine has gone down the theoretical route and alternative medicine has stayed closer to the empirical route. My favorite example to help explain the dichotomy is this: A cook will use spices - salt, pepper, cumin - and he will mix them in certain proportions and taste them. If it tastes good, he will use it next time, but there's no theory of spices. You don't have to know which nerves in your tongue are affected by which spice in what proportion. You do it empirically. The theoretical approach is the other one. And we could do it. We know which nerves cumin affects, we know which nerves salt affects, and we could work out an equation for which ones are the best, but we wouldn't end up cooking for another thousand years until we figured it out.

Here is the link:

http://www.medicalacupuncture.org/acu_info/interviews/pomeranzart.html

On the bright side, you will be happy to know he has not discovered any conclusive evidence of chi. Chalk up one point for the eggheads!

But then again, science has yet to find the true source and nature of gravity and consciousness. Two things that we know exist, but cannot explain. To me this reveals how science is just another limiting and "silly" belief system.

In a world full of mystery and awe, perhaps some things are beyond explanations and controlled experiments.

 

[manuva]

Originally posted by Shiftkey
manuva,

What foods and herbs?

Did you ever visit a licensed dietitian/nutritionist?

She immediately put me on rehydration salts, zinc, magnesium, and fish oils as well as several different liver detoxing concoctions. One liver detox thing was a powder which I had to make into a shake, the other was a bunch of tiny little pills which I had to take 20, three times a day (chinese medicine style - lots of little bits taken often). I was on a few other things too but I forget what they were.

She also told me to eliminate wheat and dairy from my diet. That was really really hard. Like, REALLY hard. I cut back slowly and eventually had my dairy intake at 0, and my wheat intake at about 2% of what it used to be. That helped exponentially.



I gotta support Don Ronny with his latest post.

I'm a huge skeptic of all this 'silly' stuff until I've seen it with my own eyes and experienced it too. I've recently had different types of energy testing and healing demonstrated too me, and it blew me away. I was very skeptical, and I didn't WANT to believe it, I wanted to prove their strange theories false, but I couldn't. Over the course of an hour and a half I was shown some fascinating stuff to do with the body's energy field and stuff. It's not yet enough to convince me, but damn it gave me a lot to think about.

Just because you can't measure it on the scales doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

 

[Deep Dish]

Don Ronny:
Look at history... nobody celebrates the skeptics, because ultimately, they stand in the way of progress with their rigid way of thinking. You are the type of folks who wanted to kill people like Galileo or Aristotle for challenging your small view of the world.

Aristotle was a skeptic. He said “Question everything! You believe in something? Fine, demonstrate it to me!” Galileo was a skeptic. He said “Bullsh*t!” to the claims of a geocentric universe and demonstrated otherwise. No, people such as myself praise the efforts of Artistotle and Galileo. Aristotle was the father of scientific thought, Galileo was promptly and widely accepted by the scientific community of his time for he had demonstrated his claims. Aristotle was off in some of his beliefs but that is the beautiful nature of science: it is self-correcting. If Artistotle was alive today he surely would accept what knowledge science has gained over the centuries.

I think the reason why skeptics are unpopular is that you generally don’t get brownie points with people by showing them how their cherished beliefs are wrong. It is inherently antagonistic. People like to feel good and have life be magical, with Sir Arthur Coynan Doyle believing in fairies, and here we skeptics come along being the party poopers to their cherished whimsical imaginations. It takes an open mind to doubt and innovation is driven by doubt, as illustrated by your examples. Tesla, who I consider to be the most significant inventor in history, who interestingly was the inspiration to Lex Luther in the Superman comic books, thought Edison’s methodologies were full of bullsh*t and so went about his own way. It is doubt about what we know or the limits of what we do know which drives innovation forward. It is doubt whether Einstein is right which propelled a Gravity Probe B into orbit to see whether to believe Einstein or String Theory and either way knowledge will be advanced. It was doubt about trading routes which lead Christopher Columbus to stumble upon the Caribbean. It was doubt about men and women being the same which lead to discoveries in neurology. It is doubt from skeptics of “Oh yeah? Demonstrate it!” which propels innovators to build inventions, for engineers to devise more efficient machines and safer airplanes, and for astronomers to search the skies, for to demonstrate claims is all that is asked. To wit, here I am demonstrating examples of doubt for those who doubt.

Interesting, I am sometimes or often skeptical of skeptics, which I guess just comes with the territory of skepticism. I always am skeptical of conspiracy theorists whenever they conjure up the next government conspiracy theory.

I avoided commenting on acupuncture because I addressed the same principle in discussing other alternative medicines. If sticking needles into the body at certain points causes certain physiological processes, such as the release of endorphins, then fine, okay. “Empirical studies on acupuncture are in their infancy. Such studies ignore notions based on metaphysics (such as unblocking chi along meridians) and seek to find causal connections between sticking needles into traditional (or nontraditional) acupuncture points and physical effects” (1). If Pomeranz has found an acupuncture-endorphin link, fine, good for him. However, as with any other alternative medicine, any metaphysical claims such as chi or your fairy god mother stand as nonfalsifiable, untestable, and therefore not to be currently believed (as in, not to be accepted as true and real).

Good, now that I'm done with this post I will use it in my essay.

 

[diplomatic_lies]

The problem is, most skeptics are know-it-alls whose life purpose is to prove people wrong. They contribute nothing to society except negativity.

People like Columbus and Einstein are remembered today because instead of going around telling other people how wrong they were, they created their own legacies.

 

[October]

Interesting thread...

Out of curiosity, do you believe in free will? I noticed that "fate" was one of your silly beliefs.

 

[Don Ronny]

Very telling response from you, DD.

I think that skepticism is a double-edged sword wielded by irony. People should challenge and question everything they are taught to believe. But at some point we all have to believe in something...silly as it may seem. Most people, especially skeptics, claim not to be religious. But if you really pay attention, you will see that they are stoutly devoted to what they believe in and terribly defensive once you question that. In all these cases, what has happened to the skeptic? He is like the nomadic wanderer who scorns every home, only to find a house of his own from which to cast his righteous stones.

In your case, it seems you are more open-minded than I thought. You accept the fact that your house is built on a constantly shifting foundation and I respect that. I just think that you can only go so farther into the realm of truth and reality using just one tool...

Science, while fascinating and useful, does not have all the answers. There are things that I believe can never be brought to the light of logic and belong in the realm of the soul. But then again, that's just another silly belief, no? Science cannot find evidence of a soul, but I can hear it every time I listen to Aretha Franklin belt out a tune, or Mozart sweetly punishing those keys. Sure, a bunch of scientists and mathematicians can come along and explain how musical progressions can give us goose bumps ... but they can't tell us where the inspiration comes from in the first place. What is the scientific formula for a muse anyway?

This is why I encourage you to keep science as your ally, but use your instincts as well and realize that it can be just as silly and limiting as a horoscope in certain respects. Our understanding of this world is more profound once we embrace the logical and the illogical. Art, science, mysticism, and yes, even astrology have had their place in human understanding for centuries. We can be skeptical of all these things and cling to no beliefs whatsoever... but what kind of existence would that be? Life would seem pretty pointless without a reason to persevere. (Other than proving to everyone how much smarter we are)

As our thinking evolves, we see that the world is what we make of it... and reality is a product of the mind. Which makes me wonder. If enough people believed that the world was flat...maybe it really was? Perhaps only the twisted and the genius have the power to shatter the collective illusion and put a more complex one in its place? If a particle could be a wave depending on who is looking at it, I say anything is possible!

In any case, I admit I have underestimated you and am glad I could push you to another level on this project of yours. Best of luck on this paper. And keep us posted when the work is done! (Someone has to knock you off that lofty pedestal when you get to the top )

 

[undesputable]

I dont believe in any of the beliefs posted.

Except the only one that still gets me is prophets (not fortune tellers) like nostradamus. many of his predictions have come true, but predictions in the bible have also become true and the bible has been there a lot longer. he also wrote many predictions and his descriptions are ambigious, so manybe he has only just gotten lucky.

 

[Abbott]

Originally posted by undesputable
I dont believe in any of the beliefs posted.

Except the only one that still gets me is prophets (not fortune tellers) like nostradamus. many of his predictions have come true, but predictions in the bible have also become true and the bible has been there a lot longer. he also wrote many predictions and his descriptions are ambigious, so manybe he has only just gotten lucky.

Because these predictions are vague, people who desperately want to believe them find ways to interpret them so that they'll be true.

The FFRF is an interesting organization. I recommend that fundamentalist devout Christians should not click that link. If you are one and decide to click it, don't blame me and don't say I didn't warn you.

Also keep in mind that many of it's members, myself included, are not against the religion per se. We just want religion and government to remain seperate, since if they aren't it would be terribly unfair to those who aren't Christians.


Ben

 

[STR8UP]

Help! Where's the Santa Claus/Easter Bunny option?

Since I can't vote for the stuff I REALLY believe in, I have to let you know that I HAVE seen UFO's before. Once when I was a little kid riding in the car with my parents. We chased it but didn't manage to track it down

The other time I was driving back on 192 (You know Deep Dish, the desolate stretch of road between Melbourne and Kissimmee) from a VERY late night of fishing at the coast when a large craft appeared to SLOOOOOWWWWLY pass overhead. I remember stopping in the middle of the road wondering what the hell it was, then my memory went blank......

Seriously though, I THOUGHT I saw a huge saucer pass over me that night. It was either real, and I was abducted for 20 minutes whereupon they erased part of my memory, or......

More than likely it was the sleep deprivation that caused me to hallucinate. The world may never know.

 

[Shiftkey]

Originally posted by undesputable
I dont believe in any of the beliefs posted.

Except the only one that still gets me is prophets (not fortune tellers) like nostradamus. many of his predictions have come true, but predictions in the bible have also become true and the bible has been there a lot longer. he also wrote many predictions and his descriptions are ambigious, so manybe he has only just gotten lucky.

What predictions in the Bible have come true? I didn't realize the Bible had any actual solid predictions.