1) Rich has serious respect issues that need to be dealt with.
Agreed.
2) Lily thinks of you as a friend.
Agreed.
3) You've got one-itis and this too shall pass.
Not the case. If I had oneitis I would not be having this conversation, I wouldn't even bother to hear you out. I disagree with you here because of my policy of letting her make the first move. Guys with oneitis follow girls around, send them poems, and think nothing of other girls, which I'll get to later. I don't do any of that. I haven't mentioned that, as far as I know, she's always made the first move when it comes to serious flirting, with wanting to hang out alone, and with mentioning having sex. I would never have done any of these things first because as I have also said, I don't want to get in their way.
Now allow me to expand on some of those points.
The serious flirting--I've known Lily for about three years, give or take a few months I guess. During the vast majority of that time, we've been nothing more than friends. No flirting, nothing at all. We've wrestled, she's sucked on my finger twice in the space of ten minutes. And that's just the remarkable stuff I can think of, there's minor kino all the goddamn time, when she sits next to me, when she sees me in the hall. She never gave me the impression up until now that she was even POSSIBLY interested in having sex with me, and her actions have distinctly changed since around late summer, early junior year. There was nothing before then, nothing at all.
Wanting to hang out alone--her move. Why would she mention it if she didn't want to do it? I didn't prompt her, or anything. She could have changed the topic of conversation. Which means, for whatever motivation, she probably wants to do it. Just because I am not positive about this, I'm not going to mention it again. I agree, if she really wants to, she'll make the time. If she doesn't, then I'll concede to you all. Just let me also mention that I appreciate the input very much, and that I have read all of the replies. In spite of minor frustration on my part, I realize that you are all trying to help me, and in return for that I'll treat you as best I can manage. Thought I'd get that out of the way...
Mentioning Sex--also her thing. Doesn't have to talk about it, wouldn't if she wasn't at least a little interested in me. Come on, if a girl you're not attracted to is into you, are you going to say, regarding sex, that "it could happen" to her? Would a girl say that to a guy that she wasn't interested in? Unlikely.
In other words, he doesn't care if it hurts Lily which reflects a major lack of respect for her.
I'll lead this in to a new development. Somehow, Gwen found this thread and looked at a little of it before I caught her by pure luck. As such, we discussed the issue for quite awhile, as was suggested, and this is what we decided--
+I am going to ask Lily if she was serious about having sex in any way, if she says yes, I am going to ask her if she is taking advantage of me. This is to be done before the end of school on friday. If she says no, then I promise, I will concede to you all here that I was wrong, and I will abandon what I am doing for good.
+Something I didn't mention, something I never really saw, but something that Gwen did. Rich had a pretty in depth relationship with a girl named Isabella for quite awhile in Elementary School. He was very, very attached to her, and she dumped him, why I don't know (went to different schools so I can only go on what people tell me), but she's pretty stupid so it was probably over nothing. Gwen thinks that Rich is afraid of commitment, therefore, that while he may indeed love Lily, he is afraid of really showing it, by not flirting with Gwen, for example. Gwen is going to tell Lily that she has not done anything with Rich because of this, because he cannot commit, and because she has no reason to believe that he won't turn her out for someone else. She wants to set things right with Lily because she likes Lily more than Rich.
+She has also threatened, should I not confront Lily about the sex thing by friday's end, to tell her that she thinks we should not have sex, for various reasons which you all have logically presented.
He would, she knows this, and so do I. Like I said, I'm not sure if she's told him or not. Both of us can argue it either way but I don't have the facts, that's a big problem.
Is she treating me any different than she would any other friend?
I have not posted the evidence, but she is opening up to me. She is treating me more than a normal person, more than a basic friend. We
are growing closer. She compliments me
constantly, christ I think the only negative thing she's said about me is that I'm too judgmental--and I agreed, I am too judgemental! She is, physically and mentally. Emotionally, we have yet to prove.
It was a good question, and you're right, I wasn't looking at it that way. That's why I'm investing so much time here in the first place--because I am learning, and because I do appreciate it.
We're hanging out, we do it all the time?
You forgot something--I didn't say it then, but we both meant, hanging out
alone.
Its embarassing and I hate feeling like I've let a friend down.
Fair enough.
how long do you think it would take for Lily to pick up the pieces and be ready to have another relationship?
I don't know. You're right. I just don't know from my own experience, I can say hypothetically what I would do...but it accounts for nothing, because I've never been there. It could take a second "I'm glad he's gone!" to, forever. I don't know her well enough to know, all I
do know is that she is sticking with him in spite of his consistant disobeying of her most basic requests, which he should, as her partner, honor to the fullest.
Which means fourteen right now...close only counts in horse-shoes and hand-grenades. I hardly need to apply myself to prove my point when you do it so eloquently yourself.
You said 13-14. That is not an adequate representation of her age, nor is it of her maturity, which, while it is lacking, has some merit, as I previously mentioned with her thoughts on the matter.
With much love and respect to Kid for summing it up so beautifully, "As an older brother, ITS YOUR JOB to look after your younger sister. Even if you cant physically control her, look out for her." If your sister saw you messing around and having fun with some M-80's that you always had a great time with, and was dead-set on messing around with said explosvies, despite seeing a friend of hers get burned by one, would you still be debated your authority as an older brother to let her make her own decisions? Probably not, and if you did see this go down and your sister got seriously hurt, you'd be charged with criminal negligence. Same principles apply.
Firecrackers? Come on, that just isn't the same thing. Firecrackers are not people, people like Rich, who I know has a strong character that has been weakened by his past. I've protested the hicks she was with way back in elementary school, but that was a long time ago. I don't just let her do whatever she wants, I do try to look out for her even if she doesn't listen, but Rich just isn't the same thing.
Ten bucks says there are other girls who you find just as interesting, or would if you spent as much time with Lily and the only difference between them and Lily right now is the sex.
Then you're out ten bucks. Like I said before, if I really thought she was perfect, if I really had oneitis, I wouldn't think of her, nor would I think of my friends, first, by letting her make the first move(s), second, by establishing with her what she is doing by making these moves (the various implications), third, by caring that she tells me that she is not taking advantage of me. I would just go for it. I'd disregard all of that and dive in. Unless she passes all three, it's a no go, and no one gets hurt.
The trouble here is that all of the girls I could possibly get, her included, carry so much goddamn baggage. There are some that are stupid, some that are *******s, some that are interwoven with my friends. But for the moment, until she fails one of my questions or statements, she's the best chance I've got. I can make this work, but I will not try if she screws up.
The sooner you realise that the sooner you'll realise how dangerous this situation is and nip it in the bud. Furthermore, I highly doubt she knows Rich as well as you do.
She doesn't want to get with him now, she's planning on telling that to Lily. Maybe forever, as long as his character is still so ****ing lacking. I agree, he's disrespecting all of us--me, by wanting to get with my sister, my sister, by wanting to get with her but unwilling to commit to her in an honorable way, and by Lily, by ignoring her pleas for him to stop. She does actually know him pretty well--enough to figure things out that I may never have thought of.
