You Be the Judge

[Kailex]

Last Sunday, I went to a friend's house to enjoy some football and good conversation. This time, some of the wifey's decided to come with since the weather was nice enough for grilling and salads.

Well, I had no clue the firestorm I was meant to endure on that fateful Sunday afternoon.

There is this man, we'll call him Chris. Chris has 4 daughters. Chris makes a really good amount of money. He's married to (let's call her) Amy. Amy is a stay at home mom who feels she was always destined to be a mother of many.

Now I've known Chris and Amy for a while and they seemed like a happy couple on the outside. Their children are respectful and well-mannered. I always wondered why he had 4 daughters, but I chalked it up to maybe him wanting to have a big family.

Well, as the drinking continued along with the food and the games, somebody jokingly asked what I dub: "The Question of Doom".

The person asked as the whole room got quiet: "So Chris, you have 4 daughters, what is taking you so long to get to Daughter #5?"

We all laughed, because, well, come on... 4 daughters. It was a joke, it's funny. We figured it was nothing offensive.

She responded: "Oh, well, if it happens, it happens, I'd be more than delighted to have 6 if I could."

My smile switched quickly. Not only because of what she said, but because of Chris' reaction.

Something wasn't right. And that's when I realized, not only did Chris NOT know that she wanted 6 children, but that this was the first time he had ever heard the news. The mood grew somber, but Chris then gave "The Answer of Doom." Staggering and standing up, he looked at Amy from across the room and laughed: "Six??? Impossible. I figured since we had 4, I'd go see a doctor and get snipped."

That's when I knew I wanted to get out of there.

Amy didn't know he had gotten fixed and WENT OFF.

One of the women at the gathering looked at me and urged me back to the kitchen. Some of us backed up and that's when I heard: "Chris is about to find out some sh*t, this might not be pretty."

Apparently, Amy was breaking diaphragms and "faking the pill" for years. Her 3rd daughter and 4th daughter happened 14 months apart. After child #2, he told her they can't have any more since he is the only one working and they should just stop. She said she agreed but kept up the trickery. Chris had asked the doctor what was going on and the doctor apparently gave him a blank stare as if to say: Really?


That's when I heard Amy scream: "You son of a b*tch. How dare you make a decision like that without asking me first. How dare you take away from me the ability to create another child. How could you do such a thing?"

Chris answered: "You know what you did to get our daughters conceived, don't get all high and mighty on me!"

The next while was just a repitition of the same. It wasn't pretty, and most of us left. I heard they apologised to the host of the party and that they are fine after the fireworks, but then my friend, who is HER best friend called me to ask me if I was okay and what I thought about it. Apparently Amy asked her for advice and Amy is taking Chris' side.

I gave her my advice but I thought this was so interesting that I wanted to see what some of the SoSuave members think.

What I will say is this: It definitely drove the point to me that some women, even the women we think are so nice, sweet, innocent and perfect will do anything it takes to get what they want... even if it's children and it means a financial strain and burden, that won't stop them.

So what say you, fellow SoSuavers... be the judge of Chris and Amy.

 

[5string]

Lack of communication. Both are guilty. Amy was sneaky and should have been forthright. Chris should have told her about the big V, but did not. Probably because of some perceived reaction if he did tell her. Hard to believe he hid it from her but I guess he did.

Yes, many will do anything to get what they want. Very true.

 

[DangNammit]

Wish I had more time now to respond... They're both effed, but clearly she is moreso.

 

[squirrels]

They didn't discuss how many kids they wanted before they got married??

Geezus, what a clusterf*ck.

The only way that could've been worse is if she got pregnant with #5 after he had been snipped.

They're both at fault as far as I'm concerned. That is a mess. Hopefully the girls won't suffer for it.

 

[Colossus]

What a mess. How many children you want to have is kind of a critical thing to get out in the open BEFORE marriage (hell even early in dating) but something tells me that conversation never occurred.

IMO it was wayyyyy more conniving of her to break diaphragms and fake the pill than it was for him to get a covert vasectomy. His concerns were practical, hers were selfish. F'd up, man.

 

[Kailex]

Before they got married, they had discussed having 2 kids.

What I didn't know was how "specific" Amy was. She always wanted JUST girls and got herself tested and CHRIS tested to see the probability of landing girls each and every time.

Weird, eh?

But that's just a side note.

What's more interesting is his ability to be fooled the third time and even furthermore, the FOURTH.

My opinion was that they discussed two so there was no problem there, but at the third, she could just push off as a mistake. The fourth is where the water finally broke the dam and he finally realized what was going on. It's a shame, because he has to bust his ass for about 50 to 60 hours a week just to budget for four children and his wife and then himself. He seriously has no end to his work schedule. He produces 6 figures but he doesn't get to enjoy any of it because it all goes to the house, wife, or kids.

She's just content being a mother and not having to work.

A few times, I've caught a couple of comments from her about how her husband never helps her at home. Fortunately, some of the other women were quick to remind her how much her husband works in order to maintain all of them, but now that the truth has come out, I'm sure she'll be "embarassed" that she was exposed.

His gut feeling led him to get the V-job and he was proven right AFTER doing it. He had seen some of the holed up diaphragms in the trash as well as the bottles full of birth control pills which she had sworn she had been taking.

Honestly, I hope I am never in this situation. I don't know if I could stay with a "wife" after having her lie to me, but I don't know that I would get a vasectomy behind her back. Both are at fault here in my eyes, but Amy pushed Chris to do what he did. For me the equation of cause and effect is had Amy not gone through all this trouble and wasn't sucking the life out of Chris, Chris wouldn't have done that in the first place.

It's just a chilling reminder of what could happen to any of us.

Even if a woman tells you that she DOESN'T want to have kids, buyer beware... that biological clock ticks at one point or another.

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

Before I render judgement, and to clear up a few things, I have some questions.

How old are Chris and Amy?

How long have they been married?

How old is the oldest daughter?

How old is the youngest daughter?

Are they Catholic, Mormon or Evangelicals?

 

[squirrels]

If they were Catholic, they likely would not be using BC at ALL, rather than tampering with it.

Honestly...how did Chris get into that?

I mean, could he not see, before he married her, that she was lazy and content to ride him as a meal-ticket? Had he not caught her in deception before? Was he not paying attention or did he see it and choose to ignore it?

To add to Rollo's questions...how long did they date before getting married? How many other girls had Chris been dating/spending time with when he met Amy?

And doesn't it seem red-flaggish already when she's having him tested for his ability to produce girls? That seems awful neurotic.

 

[Kailex]

Alright, let me go through the questions from Rollo and squirrels:

Chris and Amy are in their thirties.
Chris is 33 and Amy is 32.

They have been married for about 10 years.

Oldest daughter is about 8. Youngest daughter is about 1.5

I think they are Catholic because they go to church on Sundays before they usually get together for football games. They're dressed up when they show up places at around 1 PM.



I'd never actually analyzed how Chris got into that to be honest. They are my "friends" but I've known them for less than 2 years. So I don't know the whole story, nor did I ever question it given the fact that they looked so happy and I didn't see the pre-marriage baby syndrome. They got married before the first baby was even conceived. So I assumed they were following a "blueprint".

I didn't find out about the whole "testing for girls" debacle until Monday evening.

I think he might have seen some of it, but only because she chose to display some of it. Clearly she must have talked about her desire to have quite a few children but he shrugged it off as just another woman talking about having a large family. I'm just guesstimating here, because I honestly wasn't around at the time when they got married.

I don't know how long they were dating before they got married, to be honest. I'd definitely say that he probably wasn't spinning plates, because he's used shaming tactics on myself in the past as to why I am single and without kids. I could notice a hint of jealousy when I told him I was going out with three different women on Valentine's weekend when a few of the guys met up at a bar for a few drinks the week after. The AFC conventions were lambasted upon me by him, now that I think about it, so that alone should give me a clue that he was probably a HUGE AFC before marriage.

What REALLY made my jaw drop was the testing for the ability to have girls. I just wondered, what would have happened if Chris' genes seemed to be more dominant towards having boys... would she have just dumped him then? Did he NOT think about this at the time... or did the results just blind him?

Whatever it was, she definitely did a great job of reeling him in and locking him down.

 

[ChumpNoMore]

Wow, just wow at that situation. Thanks for taking the time to post this insight!

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

Catholic, Mormon or Evangelical would indicate a very common thread - and also explain her anger at him getting a vasectomy ("how dare you cheat me,..erh, God, of more children this way?").

Early marriage (22-23 would almost be too late) is generally a guy's only acceptable sexual release, to be followed by a traditional marriage arrangement and multiple births. Apparently she wanted this by hook or by crook and wanted to be sure to lock it in with 6 children.

 

[Nutz]

Him getting a vasectomy was justified IMO and not telling her was his right, although he faced the repercussions of doing so and withholding telling her. On the other hand her lies and reproductive deception was just plain selfish. Chalk this one up to the Western Female Entitlement Mentality.



I'm curious, does "Chris" live in Hawaii? This sounds kinda familiar to someone I used to know.

 

[DJDamage]

What REALLY made my jaw drop was the testing for the ability to have girls. I just wondered, what would have happened if Chris' genes seemed to be more dominant towards having boys... would she have just dumped him then? Did he NOT think about this at the time... or did the results just blind him?.

Amy has proven to be a very manipulative & deceptive woman that cannot be trusted. Her wanting just girls and getting just girls, makes me believe that she in fact probably had a few abortions to make that happen because getting 4-4 when you really want to get 4-4 is an unlikely outcome IMO.

I would also get DNA tests for all the girls, just to be on the safe side.

How can you trust such a woman from here on end?!

 

[jophil28]

It definitely drove the point to me that some women, even the women we think are so nice, sweet, innocent and perfect will do anything it takes to get what they want... even if it's children and it means a financial strain and burden, that won't stop them.

I was talking recently to the 50 year old brother of a woman that I am seeing.
He is married with a teenage son. His wife is a combination of a commanding officer , an accountant and the family social director. He defers to her wishes in default with little regard for his own wishes because , " without her efforts we would not have what we have" .
I asked him this," In your house, does your wife's opinions, wishes and plans carry higher value that your's do." He readily agreed that they did. Curiously that was not a hint of resentment in his voice. He accepted this as a 'natural' state of affairs and has shaped his life around her's .
He has also tacitly agreed to be her gofer and personal assistant, and in return he lives a life which resembles that of a incompetent eldest child.
When I asked him why her wants and demands supercede his , he just shrugged.

 

[wait_out]

When i was a young kid, some labourer putting down cement floors of my parent's house made a comment to me "Life's a b!tch and then you marry one". That has stuck with me. I've always wondered what could give a guy such a rotten fatalist attitude. I think now I have a better idea why people find themselves entrapped, but still, being resigned to that as your inevitable fate is lunacy. Maybe you f'd up somewhere along the line personally, but that isn't the only way life has to be.

You have to watch your step with other people, whether you're a boy or a girl. This is going to be an issue for the 4 daughters, who may or may not get it evened out before they have their own families. I've wondered myself if I was conceived as entrapment... children will learn to deal over time but Amy may have ruined a perfectly happy family in real life, desperately chasing the one that she was dreaming about in her head. Dodging dysfunctional people seems like the core of healthy dating these days. Ironically I feel more positive than ever about it, because these days I feel alert enough not to step on a land mine.

Not the kind of relationship I'd want to be in, not the kind of girl I'd have chosen to marry. You want relationships to be cooperative and mutual rather than extractive or manipulative. If you don't see eye to eye you talk to each other and decide if you can compromise. This is just... childish. People can't accept not getting what they want so instead they'll risk sabotaging everything. Getting over this doesn't seem like it'd be easy or even the right thing to do, maybe. On a side note, I read an article a while back about a strong preference for daughters over sons in America. Not directly linked but its interesting to think what that says about our society.

Ay what a mess. My heart goes out to the kids. If #3 and #4 learn to put a few clues together there are going to be some very difficult moments figuring out what exactly they mean to mom and dad. Fvck...

 

[Kailex]

Chris is from New Jersey.
And the fact that the situation "seems familiar" is even more scarier. I'm pretty sure there are many people out there going through similar situations.

It's just sort of a mindfvck because I'm sure even THEY thought they had the perfect relationship until he figured out what was going on.

Once he did, the dream that had lasted a decade was over and the nightmare was beginning.

I'm sure that throughout the relationship, Chris could have seen many red flags (The huge red flag being the testing for girls), but probably just ignored him because he didn't know what those flags looked like had they hit him right on the nose.

He got married before the age of 25, and although I have no insight to how much he did date before that, I'm sure he probably went for his best option early on... or in this case, the one that LOOKED like the best option. It's just chilling for me and hard to graps because it's somewhat of a worst case scenario happening in front of my eyes. The shock of seeing it all unfold was... sobering.

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

Power abhors a vacuum.

 

[loveshogun]

Whatever it was, she definitely did a great job of reeling him in and locking him down.

This will sound harsh, but strong fish are much harder to catch.

True, that in the situation they're in now, marriage (which, of all things, I think has to be above all a business contract and a matter of compromise - another reason why I don't see myself getting married), they're both at fault.

But, Chris should have known whom he was marrying. Now that he's in it, he's gotta make choices based on the new situation - when he could have avoided it a long time ago.

Then again, hindsight is always perfect. I hope things turn out for him, and his wife isn't as batsh*t crazy as she seems.