women bail on me w/out warning

[ogre]

Hi all

I used to be a regular on this forum and I have been away for awhile. basically I gave up because everything I tried, failed. I am 44 and still learning how to date. I've got game. game is not the problem. I approach women all the time and I'm in a good social environment with lots of opportunities to meet women, but women simply do not find me attractive. there has to be at least a spark of attraction or all the game in the world will not work. I do have an advantage, I look young. most people tell me I look about mid-30's. I do take care of myself. I eat healthy and excercise. So I dont understand why I am having so much difficulty.

I go on a lot of dates w beautiful women in their 20's who all end up telling me what a great guy I am, but only as "just friends". and 30+ women, my "age bracket" are just not interested in me at all - they all got kids and stuff, and here I'm still single. We're just not in the same ballpark. its not that I dont ask older women - I do. but it's the young ones who say yes......only to then tell me they just want to be "friends".

the only women who find me attractive are fat, ugly, old or whack-jobs. once in a long while, there might be a cute whack job girl who finds me attractive at first, but then she'll bail on me with no warning at all. usually before we ever get to the sex part.

enough introductions. here are two recent incedents:

I was at NY eve party, and got all snuggly with a young girl. totally spontaneous physical chemistry. we hadn't even introduced ourselves. she was with a GF who, after awhile, started to feel like a 3rd wheel so she excused herself to go mingle. then after about 20 minutes my new friend decides to go find her GF. she never came back, and when I went look for them later, she was totally not interested, and pressing the issue just made me mr. creepy guy.

next day, I went on a dinner date a girl who posted on ad on craigslist. Just moved to NY. nice girl, geeky, very bright, 26, pretty, really has her shyt together, easy to get along with, we talked for hours. I picked her up at her house, we went for thai food and then to her local pub then I dropped her off.

as fas as I can tell, I did everything right, and so did she. she offered to split the bill on her CC but I told her to to put her purse away. but she offered $10 cash and I accepted it. talking was maybe 50/50 percent, all kinds of subjects, I got her laughing at times, but nothing lead us towards intimacy.... there was NO physical contact, other than a light hug when I dropped her off. So I think bottom line is, either she's just really shy or she's just not into me, and my guess based on prior experiencers is the latter.

so now I dont know what to do. I had already invited to a second date even before we met. it is an all-day event on 1/10 that requires reservations. she seemed interested in checking it out and she is thinking about it. but even so..... today is the day after our date and she has not contacted me. no call, no email, no text, nuthin. I am not sure if I should initiate contact. I think I should wait at least 5 days and drop her a random email or text. I wouldn't call. f*ck calling. I hate getting VM. especially being that she is so much younger than me, and a Virgo, my feeling is back off and give her some space.


so, whatcha all think? any suggestions?

 

[vorbis]

dude, its up to you to LEAD the physical attraction. If you're acting like you're sexually interested in you, she's not going to see you that way. As for being worried about the last one not calling you the day after. Don't sweat it, call her in a day or 2 to make the plans for the second date. Don't wait 5 days though, that's too long. You want to escalate things and waiting that long will just cool things down.

Overall man, relax a bit and read up on kino!

 

[ogre]

dude, its up to you to LEAD the physical attraction.


no, no! :nono: I went on some dates in the past and totally blew it because I was too touchy-feely. got to let the woman initiate. got to. touching w/out permission is creepy. I was very carful to read her body language for positive signs, and did not get any. I gave her lots of opportunities. when in doubt, proceed w extreme caution.

call her in a day or 2 to make the plans for the second date. Don't wait 5 days though, that's too long.

ok. I've heard other advice that says wait 5-9 days. So I'm gonna wait for a 2nd opinion.

 

[Dust 2 Dust]

Ogre, this happens to us all.

In the first situation I believe her friend c0ckblocked you. This is what happens when you engage pairs of woman, but ignore their friend. In hindsight you probably would have been better off with a number close and then moving onto another target rather than spending an extended amount of time with this one chick.

The second woman doesn't sound interested at all. When a woman offers to go dutch it gives off the friend vibe and is not a good sign. I also wouldn't ask a woman for a second date while you're still on the first date. It comes across as too eager.

 

[ogre]

In the first situation I believe her friend c0ckblocked you.

no doubt.

you probably would have been better off with a number close

by the time I asked it was too late.

The second woman doesn't sound interested at all.

that's....... what I was afraid of.

When a woman offers to go dutch it gives off the friend vibe and is not a good sign.

really? last week I went on a date and paid everything, she was ugly, had no personality, we had zero chemistry, and the c*nt didnt even have the courtesy to offer to contibute toward the bill.

I also wouldn't ask a woman for a second date while you're still on the first date. It comes across as too eager.

yes, I know. that's what I was afraid of, but actually we discussed the 2nd date even before we met.... the deal was that I would have to meet her first before inviting her to the all-day event.

which is why I feel I should back off....

 

[guru1000]

How many women have you dated (1 date or better) before your last (non) exclusive relationship?

 

[ogre]

How many women have you dated (1 date or better) before your last (non) exclusive relationship?

I have only hd 2 LTR's. the first one, I was 26. I knew nothing about game. I was not dating. I asked girls out and they all said no. this one said yes. it lasted for 3 months.

my 2nd LTR was 10 years later, it was with a married woman. I knew her back when she was single. but by the time she finally became interested in me, she was fat and married and I was easy and desperate. we were together for 6 months before I got tired of f*cking the fat pig.

after that I learned about 'game" on the web. I began to approach women and ask for dates. occasionally I got one, but never got to date #2. no sex. for years I tried and tried.

about 2-1/2 years ago, after a string of dating failures, I was all depressed and my back was hurting decided to walk to the 24-hr drug store to buy some epsom salts. I met a girl who lives 1/2 block from my house. she was outside having a smoke. she was young and pretty. we got to talking and within 45 min she said lets go to your apartment. we made love all night, it was wonderful. only problem is, after no sex for so many years, I could barely get my johnson up. we tried 5 times, and I somehow got thru 2.

i've since invested in herbal supplements as well as viagra and cialis, and I do see her in my 'hood occasionaly. but she is not giving me another chance.

1 year ago I had a date from the internet, she was young (24) a little chubby (size 10) but not bad. she was all kissy-touchy with me and we had sex that night. 2 days later she bailed. afetr that I went on a strign of 1st dates, all of which flopped. I am still "just friends" w one of them.

I didnt see chubby girl again til may. we had sex, then she bailed agian. this happend again in June, that was the last time I got any.

I met a girl on october, she was beautiful, slender, sexy, hot, totally into me, and I completely blew my game. The one time I actually met someone who I really liked, I ****ed everything up. I hadn't been dating for awhile, I had no job, no money, my car and my motorcycle broke down, I was in no position to be dating hot chicks. within a week she bailed and there was no sex.

I have since gotten a new(er) motorcycle and a job. but hot chick has already moved onto to another guy. so I am out there meeting chicks and getting numbers, emails, and going on dates. I have a female friend who just came back to NY, she lives 7 blocks away, she is mad cute, I adore her, we talk every day on IM, she gets into these NSA booty calls and then complains about how she just cant find a steady BF. But she DOESNT WANT ME.

so there thats my complete sexual history. too much information?


Can you Walk Away?

it's very very tough for me to walk away. I understand the concept. but it's not easy.

 

[ogre]

How many women have you dated (1 date or better) before your last (non) exclusive relationship?

I have only hd 2 LTR's. the first one, I was 26. I knew nothing about game. I was not dating. I asked girls out and they all said no. this one said yes. it lasted for 3 months.

my 2nd LTR was 10 years later, it was with a married woman. I knew her back when she was single. but by the time she finally became interested in me, she was fat and married and I was easy and desperate. we were together for 6 months before I got tired of f*cking the fat pig.

after that I learned about 'game" on the web. I began to approach women and ask for dates. occasionally I got one, but never got to date #2. no sex. for years I tried and tried.

about 2-1/2 years ago, after a string of dating failures, I was all depressed and my back was hurting decided to walk to the 24-hr drug store to buy some epsom salts. I met a girl who lives 1/2 block from my house. she was outside having a smoke. she was young and pretty. we got to talking and within 45 min she said lets go to your apartment. we made love all night, it was wonderful. only problem is, after no sex for so many years, I could barely get my johnson up. we tried 5 times, and I somehow got thru 2.

i've since invested in herbal supplements as well as viagra and cialis, and I do see her in my 'hood occasionaly. but she is not giving me another chance.

1 year ago I had a date from the internet, she was young (24) a little chubby (size 10) but not bad. she was all kissy-touchy with me and we had sex that night. 2 days later she bailed. afetr that I went on a strign of 1st dates, all of which flopped. I am still "just friends" w one of them.

I didnt see chubby girl again til may. we had sex, then she bailed agian. this happend again in June, that was the last time I got any.

I met a girl on october, she was beautiful, slender, sexy, hot, totally into me, and I completely blew my game. The one time I actually met someone who I really liked, I ****ed everything up. I hadn't been dating for awhile, I had no job, no money, my car and my motorcycle broke down, I was in no position to be dating hot chicks. within a week she bailed and there was no sex.

I have since gotten a new(er) motorcycle and a job. but hot chick has already moved onto to another guy. so I am out there meeting chicks and getting numbers, emails, and going on dates. I have a female friend who just came back to NY, she lives 7 blocks away, she is mad cute, I adore her, we talk every day on IM, she gets into these NSA booty calls and then complains about how she just cant find a steady BF. But she DOESNT WANT ME.

so there thats my complete sexual history. too much information?


Can you Walk Away?

it's very very tough for me to walk away. I understand the concept. but it's not easy.

 

[guru1000]

Ogre,

What is your annual income, net worth, height, weight and body fat %?

 

[ogre]

What is your annual income, net worth, height, weight and body fat %?

5'7" 170 lbs, I dont know what percent of body fat, I have a bit of a pot-belly which I've had even as a child. I was about 150 lbs for most of my adult life, but 3 yrs ago I took on another 20 lbs, at least 1/2 of that is muscle mass from martial arts training.

my income is and net worth is..... not much... I drive an old van and a bunch of old motorcycles. I live in a basement studio with my cat. girls looking for sugar daddy will not be interested in me.

 

[Mr. Me]

the only women who find me attractive are fat, ugly, old or whack-jobs

That only means that, contrary to what you believe, you must be an attractive man. Those types of women have to do the approaching, since no one approaches them, and they will approach men that look attractive. It's the curse of looking good.

You also seem to have no problem getting the first date or getting in some time with women. So, it's what happens surrounding that is where you're losing them.

I agree about not touching them. That whole kino thing only has a place when your touch is welcomed. But even were it welcomed on the first date, it's more powerful not to touch them, because doing so makes you come off like all the other guys who just have to hold their hands, stroke their arms, put their hands on their knees, etc. I'd rather make her want me to touch her and anticipate it, which makes her desire it more.

So, getting all snuggly with someone you just met can backfire. Don't be fooled into thinking that just because a woman seems cool with what you do at aany moment and is even going along with it, that it doesn't also register with her as "too much too soon". There you were getting all snug with a woman and she didn't even know your name. After 20 minutes of getting to know you, she wrangled herself away on a pretense so she could disappear. In that 20 minutes, you did stuff that turned her off is my guess.

And you hunted her down and pressed the issue? So, what you're saying is that you come off as a bit needy or lonely or as the possible looney aggressive stalker type perhaps. And maybe that's also part of what turns these girls off, okay? Like I said, it's what you're saying and doing in those 20 minutes that turns them off.

The dinner date: she wasn't into you. Either she wasn't physically attracted when she saw you, or again, during the dinner date you turned her off. "Talking for hours" will do just that. You'll either bore them to tears or be saying things you shouldn't be saying. That date went on too long.

We know she wasn't using you for dinner because she gave you money. Her offer to pay however was more then just her being cordial, When she *insisted* on paying after you did the gentlemanly thing, that meant she didn't want to feel obligated to you. The hug at the end of the night meant no physical attraction to you. But it had nothing to do with shyness.

Notice too that although she already knew she wasn't into you, she still went to the pub after dinner with you. Women will act interested on a date even if they're not because they want to avoid a scene. Again, you may be coming off as tightly wound.

"I had already invited to a second date even before we met" Yes sir, I would say that comes off as too needy, as if you don't have any other prospects in your life. It's too much. Despite the circumstances that you think warranted asking her in advance - don't ask in advance. Especially if you've never met...

So no, don't contact her. This one's over. Move on.

Like you said, you're learning to date - you really have to re-learn it all, because you're going about it making a lot of mistakes. That's because you basically don't get what's going on and you don't see how what you're doing is affecting the outcome. You think you're doing everything right - but if you were, you wouldn't be experiencing all this.

Try this way instead:

Approach the girl and just get the number. That's all. Then say it was nice meeting her and disappear.

Then call for a date a few days later and don't make it a boring, long dinner date. Make it an activity like a museum stroll or shooting pool. Keep it short.

No serious talk whatsoever. No talk about relationships or exes or politics or sex. Don't tell them you live in a basement. Zip your lips. No talk about future dates. Just crack jokes and have fun. Don't take anything personally.

Wait a few days then call for another date. Only use the phone to make dates. That means, you chit chat fun stuff for ten minutes, then make the date, then say goodbye and you don't talk to them again until the date itself when you see them.

Do this, ease up some and you're on your way to more second dates.

 

[guru1000]

Ogre, I am not so interested in further educating you on game because it seems you have been on this site for several years.

The truth of the matter is your appearance will either make you or break you. It seems throughout your adult life it has been breaking you. I do not know you and am just making an assumption based on your profile and lack of experience in healthy relationships.

I am not so much concerned about your net worth as I am about your APPEARANCE of the ABILITY to produce. If you want cream of the crop, hot women, you will have to look the part. This means getting rid of your old vans and moving into a decent apartment if you cannot afford to buy a house. You are better off with no car rather than any car. You are better off living with your family in a normal living arrangement than living in a basement studio in your 40's.

There is no magic pill to swallow to make you a Don Juan. You have to possess enough confidence in who you are that you refuse to live this way for no one other than yourself. A true Don Juan asks a lot from life and will not settle with unfavorable living conditions nor compromise himself in the process.

There is a lot of work that needs to be done. You can continue trying to learn the game or better yourself to bring the game to you.

Don’t misconstrue this as a knock to your employment and lack of wealth. I want you to understand the TRUTH. Ambition and WILL to succeed is more important than actual success. This is what needs to be worked on for women to chase you rather than doing all the chasing.

 

[ogre]

you must be an attractive man.

I've been told that I am...even by aformentioned hot chick. so then why is this so difficult?

You also seem to have no problem getting the first date or getting in some time with women. So, it's what happens surrounding that is where you're losing them.

I agree. somewhere in the mix they get a wiff of the needy stink.

So, getting all snuggly with someone you just met can backfire.

that must be what happened. she was really getting into it, reciprocating, and then she just got up and bailed.

And you hunted her down and pressed the issue?

ya, I was confused. I was like wtf?? I should have just stayed put, if she wanted to come back, she might have done so, but by pursuing, I killed any chance of that.

The dinner date: she wasn't into you. Either she wasn't physically attracted when she saw you, or again, during the dinner date you turned her off.

she talked a lot. she wasn't bored. she's a talker. but I knew from he get-go that she wasn't attracted to me.

The hug at the end of the night meant no physical attraction to you.

ya... that is what i think.

Women will act interested on a date even if they're not because they want to avoid a scene. Again, you may be coming off as tightly wound.

really? I would always ask her what she wanted to do. I was very easy going and agreeable.

Despite the circumstances that you think warranted asking her in advance - don't ask in advance. Especially if you've never met...

well I thought it was in context. she seemed interested, asked me a lot of questions about it. but in principle, it is a no-no.

So no, don't contact her. This one's over. Move on.

are you sure? I think she is seriously considering the event on 1/10. are you saying I should just forget it?

That's because you basically don't get what's going on and you don't see how what you're doing is affecting the outcome.

you must be right. I really don't understand it at all.


and don't make it a boring, long dinner date.

but..... girls all say they like dinner dates. and she talked a lot. she didnt seem bored. I think maybe we were both trying to get that "spark" going, since we seemed intellectually compatible, but the spark never came. are you saying I should've just bailed early?

Do this, ease up some and you're on your way to more second dates.

ok, I will try to stick to the formula.

 

[ogre]

I am not so much concerned about your net worth as I am about your APPEARANCE of the ABILITY to produce. If you want cream of the crop, hot women, you will have to look the part. This means getting rid of your old vans and moving into a decent apartment if you cannot afford to buy a house. You are better off with no car rather than any car. You are better off living with your family in a normal living arrangement than living in a basement studio in your 40's.

I agree, except for the living with parents part. and I need the van for working. but this is my situation. do you think I like being a 44-yr old loser? a man with my talent and ability?

truth is, I am legally disabled. I am slightly autistic (asperger's) which makes it very difficult for me to comprehend social skills, which are "common sense" for most people. this is why I keep trying and trying and not getting it. I only found out about this recently, and my ability to socialize has improved dramatically since. but throughout my life I have been socially rejected, picked on, made fun of, ostracized, fired from employment, etc etc. and did not understand why. but in spite of my disability I managed to start my own business. just when I was starting to become succesful, I got robbed and lost everything. that was 9 years ago. so I started again from scratch, built up my business again, became succesful, had lots of cash, a decent car (this is about the time I started actively dating) and then there was a fire and I lost everything again.

so now I am legally emotionally disabled with post traumatic stress disorder. I collect a social security check I piddle around doing odd jobs. I'm just tired tired tired.

 

[MikeEdward1973]

Ogre, what's worked well for me is just meeting up for a drink on the first date. It's a smaller investment of time. I have far more success hooking up on first dates, and getting second dates, when the first date just consists of meeting up for drinks.

Like you, I used to do dinner dates as first dates, and I experienced far more failure when I did so. I'd suggest doing drinks for the first time you meet.

And I'd also like to suggest you increase the number of first dates you go on. Really, do it machine-gun style. Volume really helps. You said that you're in a social, target-rich environment, so take advantage of that.

The first thing on your mind after you finish a date should be setting up a date with someone else, not whether your date liked you, when you should call, etc. Once you've got that squared away, you're in better shape.

Also, Guru's comments are spot on. You do need to take a hard look at your life, and how it's being perceived by the women you date. And take a close look at the way you communicate yourself, and your place in the world, to these women. It's important to express passion and ambition for things. With all due respect, if they see your current situation as being end-game for you, rare is the attractive women that will hold you in high value for a sustained period of time.

 

[MikeEdward1973]

Bro, what about moving on up to a nicely furnished apartment and a clean, newer car? Women will not feel comfortable riding in a van back to some guys basement when the guy is 43.

lol, yeah, this post just said more succinctly what my more wordy post was trying to say.

 

[MikeEdward1973]

[/QUOTE] truth is, I am legally disabled. I am slightly autistic (asperger's) which makes it very difficult for me to comprehend social skills, which are "common sense" for most people.

so now I am legally emotionally disabled with post traumatic stress disorder. I collect a social security check I piddle around doing odd jobs. I'm just tired tired tired.[/QUOTE]

oops, I posted before I read this part.

So, aren't you best off trying to meet someone who understands your disability? Like from a support group?

I think that it's going to be really hard to be consistently successful with attractive women unless you meet someone who understands Aspergers. Now, the fellow who runs Facebook also has Aspergers, and he get's a lot of women. But he's really loaded.

 

[guru1000]

truth is, I am legally disabled. I am slightly autistic (asperger's) which makes it very difficult for me to comprehend social skills, which are "common sense" for most people.

Ogre, I dont feel sorry for you and I don't want you to feel sorry for you either. You had the fortitude to open the doors of business twice which shows me you are ahead of 50% of the people who quit after one failure. I do not suggest to use this condition as a crutch of reasoning because you have already proven you are better than that.

but in spite of my disability I managed to start my own business. just when I was starting to become succesful, I got robbed and lost everything. that was 9 years ago. so I started again from scratch, built up my business again, became succesful, had lots of cash, a decent car (this is about the time I started actively dating) and then there was a fire and I lost everything again.

Now it's time to pick yourself up and do it again. Success surrenders to those who persevere. The battle is not over YET.

Back to the subject. Monetary success is not nearly as important as your WILL to succeed. A woman will hold you in high regard IF she sees your drive outweighs your present circumstance.

Make it your GOAL this year to get a decent car and place to live. Work the 12-15 hour days, 6-7 days per week to get you to the destination. Your fortitude will win if you choose to persevere.

This is not an ambition thread. I focus on it because these are your weak points that need improvement.

so now I am legally emotionally disabled with post traumatic stress disorder. I collect a social security check I piddle around doing odd jobs. I'm just tired tired tired.

Never say these words again. It is mental poison.

Best of luck to you brother.

 

[ogre]

I have far more success hooking up on first dates, and getting second dates, when the first date just consists of meeting up for drinks.

really? so you agree to just meet for drinks but then you end up hooking up?

Like you, I used to do dinner dates as first dates, and I experienced far more failure when I did so.

really? wow. I thought that, when the date goes long that is a good sign, like she's interested. I've been on 1st dates where we went to 2-3 places, rode around on my motorcycle, brought her home, prolly spent a good 5 hours together, I thought they went great, but then I never heard from them again, and never knew why. are you saying I should have a one-hour time limit policy?

I'd suggest doing drinks for the first time you meet.

ok, I guess..... it seems wierd to me, but I will try it.

I'd also like to suggest you increase the number of first dates you go on. Really, do it machine-gun style. Volume really helps.

true. dating costs a lot of time and money and running around. but if its just drinks then my risks are lower and I can do more volume. and I have pissed away way to much $$ buying dinner for ungrateful c*nts.

The first thing on your mind after you finish a date should be setting up a date with someone else,

ya, well I got no one else in the pipeline at the moment.

if they see your current situation as being end-game for you, rare is the attractive women that will hold you in high value for a sustained period of time.

yes, no woman of any worth wants a middle-aged loser. believe me I know that. I can get a crack-wh0re or a handicapped person maybe. I am doing the best I can to try to get my shyt together in spite of hanicapps and setbacks.

 

[Mr. Me]

>> I would always ask her what she wanted to do. I was very easy going and agreeable. >>

Women don't want a guy that asks them what they want to do, unless they're control freaks. You lead. They want a man with a plan. Of course, listen to what she says she likes, as that will give you some ideas of what to do in the future with her. But YOU make the plans - and stick to them. If a woman wants to change the plans, she's out.

>> are you sure? I think she is seriously considering the event on 1/10. are you saying I should just forget it? >>

She already has. You should do the same.

>> but..... girls all say they like dinner dates. and she talked a lot. she didn't seem bored. I think maybe we were both trying to get that "spark" going, since we seemed intellectually compatible, but the spark never came. are you saying I should've just bailed early? >>

Save your dinner dates for several dates in, and use them sparingly as a special treat once she's shown she's there because she wants to be with you.

Keep your initial dates short so that you don't outlast your welcome and leave them wanting more. 4 hours is about max. Most guys will try to stay with a girl until she's yawning and saying "I have to get up early tomorrow" and they've run it too long and bored her.

And yeah, if the spark isn't there, then it's because you need to set up a "coffee date" first to see if it is before you invest in a real date.

Listen, you're around NYC? PM me and maybe we can hit come places one night, grab a drink and figure it out. It has to be that you're coming across as needy and if you're also mentioning the negatives in your life as topics of dinner conversation, that's going to further annihilate every girl you run across.