Women and Accountability

[STR8UP]

I need to get some sleep so I'm not going to go into details here, but to make a long story short this weekend I was once again reminded of just how far a woman will go to avoid owning up to her mistakes.

What's up with this?

It never ceases to amaze me how a woman can be TOTALLY and OBVIOUSLY wrong, yet she will find a way to make it someone else's fault.

They will use ANY loophole they can justify to avoid admitting a mistake and apologizing.

Maybe that's why they always say "Man up and admit your mistakes". It seems a much more masculine quality to be able to admit you were wrong and be truly sorry.

It's almost like we, as men, need to walk away from such a situation if it is serious enough, however I have a feeling that even that tactic would only serve to make a woman sorry for getting caught as opposed to being sorry for her actions. In other words, she would apologize with hollow words, which isn't any better than not apologizing at all.

 

[The Bat]

What horrendous act did she committ that she wouldn't apologize? Did she, did she murder somebody or steal something valuable?

I mean, honestly. It's not even worth arguing with somebody who can't see right from wrong. You're wasting your time by trying to show them what they did wrong.

 

[Knight's Cross]

STR8UP,
Some people in general have the ability to deflect and try to absolve responsibility. The difference I've seen is women use the "emotional side" to justify their rotton behavior. Men don't have that fallback. Time and again I've had a chick try to get me to feel sorry for her actions...i.e. she did something because in her eyes," I made her feel bad so she did x".
Or in the case of the cluster b types, they know they have done something wrong. It suited their purpose at the time and they hope they don't get caught. If the fault is pointed out they may apologize, but it is without remorse or empathy. That's one shining difference with them and "normal" people. They truly have a 1 track agenda.
Once you witness this type of behavior, you must be resolute in walking away. I have found that it never changes from external motivation. A person has to take internal steps to fix this. Until they see that they are the cause of all the men in their life walking away, they will wash/ rinse/ repeat. Or they will capture the heart of an AFC who is then tortured into a life of meaninglessness.

While it may be frustrating to discover this in a friend, a plate, or a woman you thought was going towards LTR remember this: You are eyes open to the reality that women are all actresses. Think of how many AFC's have no idea that this is the reality? My thought is you should shrug it off , grin with the knowledge you are armed with, and press on to newer opportunities. If you give this woman no value, then she has none.

Important recap for all new folks though, thanks.

KC

 

[Aenigma]

I'm with you 100% STR8UP. My wife would always blame her misbehaviors on me. She had done those aweful things because she was "still subconsciously angry" (or something along those lines) about something I had previously done (like keep porn on my computer). It was never her fault, always mine; and I kept buying it for weeks on end. Finally one day, I had an epiphany, similar to yours; that was the day I stopped excusing away her BS and realized that she was just a mean-spirited, manipulative, b-itch who used my own good and kind nature against me. Oh well, lessons learned.

Time to go re-read 48 Laws of Power.

 

[STR8UP]

What horrendous act did she committ that she wouldn't apologize? Did she, did she murder somebody or steal something valuable?

I mean, honestly. It's not even worth arguing with somebody who can't see right from wrong. You're wasting your time by trying to show them what they did wrong.

That's my point.

It doesn't matter if it's big or small, women lack the ability to acknowledge that their actions cause consequences and that they should be held accountable.

But it seems as if in a case where it isn't a capital offense you just have to let it roll off your back and if it happens too often then you need to address it.

Basically, like you said, it isn't worth it to try to show someone right from wrong. but it's frustrating as hell dealing with even a relatively minor issue where if it were YOUR KID you would punish him to TEACH him that its wrong. We're talking about grown adults here, and it's al little more difficult to teach them like you would a kid.

What I am specifically referring to is the fact that this woman seems to have had good intentions, but she made a bad decision that put her into the position where she was unable to follow through with me. I can't blame her for how things unfolded, but she was clearly wrong in having made the initial choice that PUT her in that position. And then all she could do was point the blame at the situation she was in rather than owning up to the fact that SHE had PUT herslf in that situation. She kept saying, "But what did you want me to do??? I wasn't driving! I was stuck with my friends! They didn't want to leave.'.

No amount of rationalization could make her see that her CHOICE to go with her friends "for a little while" rather than go with me (as originally planned) was a mistake on her part and inconvenienced me in the process. the best she could do was rationalize it by saying that she "couldn't turn her best friend down", which I told her was BS, but she wouldn't budge so I chalked it up and let it go.

It's little strikes like this that aren't deal breakers, but you can't let them add up cause it becomes a sign of serious disrespect.

 

[Vulpine]

infallible; adj.
incapable of making mistakes or being wrong

STR8UP, this comes up over and over again with, not only women, but most modern people. I believe it ties in to the victim mentalities that people love to have.

With women interaction, when I encounter this sort of passing blame, I slow down and ask questions in a deliberate order such as to arrive back at the initial point where the woman accepts her own fault.

For example,

"Did A+B=C?"
Yes.
"And, did C-B=A?"
Yes.
"Then, does C-A=B?"
No.

At which point I explain the meaning of the word "infallible" and proceed to outline how undesirable of a characteristic it is. This usually gets results; and in future, when a similar instance comes up, I'll simply hold up two fingers and say "infallible" (then drop it and walk away).

You understand the dynamics of when you point out an obvious defect to a woman. When you are counting, there is a sense of urgency attached, not only for them, but for yourself as well. Ultimately, you are demonstrating to them that you are holding them accountable whether they hold themselves accountable or not.

You shouldn't need to hold up three fingers.

 

[ketostix]

Did she, did she murder somebody or steal something valuable?

The thing is society as a whole doesn't hold women accountable in general. Women often get away with stealing and murder, literally.

 

[jophil28]

It never ceases to amaze me how a woman can be TOTALLY and OBVIOUSLY wrong, yet she will find a way to make it someone else's fault.

THis is also further demonstrated on some of those girly forums which agonise over dating dilemmas.
IF a poster writes in with a problem with her relationship which she has clearly caused, the replies from the other harpies quickly shift blame onto the guy. It is as if women are willing to shield and protect other women as much as they do so for themselves.

NO wonder relationshiops rarely work out..
Trying to have an adult relationship with someone who has the mind of a child just isn't going to work.

 

[penkitten]

didn't we already do this thread?

 

[Jitterbug]

Even the best women I know (who are in happy, decades long marriage) would never openly admit that they fvcked up, although they might indirectly do so by taking actions to fix them. They gotta blame someone or something.

IF a poster writes in with a problem with her relationship which she has clearly caused, the replies from the other harpies quickly shift blame onto the guy. It is as if women are willing to shield and protect other women as much as they do so for themselves.

Yeah, that, and if it seems a little too much work, they will join in the chorus: "Leave him, girl!"

 

[STR8UP]

didn't we already do this thread?

Yea, I'm sure we did.

I just can't get over it though.

She actually pointed out a couple of things that I did that this weekend that I immediately recognized as being a mistake or misjudgment on my part, and I promptly apologized for what I did and I meant it.

The longer version of this story is that I had arranged for the 22 yr old to come visit for the weekend. The premise for her coming into town was so that she would be able to see me, but also be able to see her best friend and some other acquaintances before she starts school this week.

So Thursday night I pick her up. I worked Friday, and she came and hung out at my office for part of the day.

She was in contact with her best friend who invited her to go do something that evening. That was fine.....I had actually been kind of invited as well but wasn't feeling it, so they went off to do their thing with the understanding that we would all meet up an do something later.

So later rolls around, and the three of them drive all the way to my house, have one drink, and tell me they have to go make an appearance at this party but they will be back.

Not 20 minutes later the 22 yr old starts texting me about how she's afraid she's gonna end up babysitting these other girls, and I replied that I had a feeling that I wouldn't be seeing them again that night.

Oh well, I knew it was going to happen as soon as they left my place. It sucks cause I had made plans with THEM, and turned down offers from two other people because of it, but it wasn't THAT big of a deal.

So the next day I went to pick up the 22 yo at her friend's house. We're walking out the door and her best friend starts talking about the concert that they are going to that night asking me if I was coming.

The thing is, I already had plans with another group of friends, which 22 yo knew about, and the plan was that she was going to accompany me that night I was meeting up with the crew.

So I was starting to get agitated that she had taken it upon herself to make plans with her friend when she had already agreed to do something with me.

I was a bit ticked that she had done this, even though I was of course invited by everyone, but I bit my tongue. Nighttime comes along and the girls come over to pick up the 22yo at my place, asking me if I was going with them, blah, blah. I told them that I had made other plans, and we all agreed to meet up later.

So needless to say they were a no-show. I texted them my whereabouts around 1am, and I finally get a text from 22yo at about 2:30 which I didn't respond to. Then she calls me at 4am. I didn't pick up. Again, she texts me the next morning as if nothing had happened asking if I wanted to come joiin them by the pool. I don't answer, so all afternoon she's blowing up my phone.

Finally I said fukk it and responded to her when she sent me an IM. She asked me to come and get her so we could talk, and I told her she needs to get best friend to drop her off if she wants to get to my place, cause I wasn't gonna pick her up.

I then basically told her to have fun hanging out with her friend and to call me later when she gets a ride to my place.

So 20 minutes later she texts me that she's on her way to my place. She gets there and I explain to her that it wasn't cool to have "stood me up" like that. I reminded her that she initially had plans with ME, to which she replied that she "couldn't turn her best friend down" I of course called her on that line of sh!t, which did no good, but then she kept going on and on about how she wasn't having a good time and she tried to get everyone to go meet up with me but they wouldn't leave and that she wasn't driving, and how could I blame her if she had no control over the situation, etc.

I once again explained to her that it wasn't cool that she changed plans in the first place, and it ESPECIALLY wasn't cool that she ditched out on plans with me two nights in a row, regardless of whether or not her hands were tied. I explained that her "I can't say no to my friend" line was utter BS, and that regardless of the fact that she couldn't have imagined that the same thing would have happened twice in a row, she shouldn't have put herself in the position where it would have been POSSIBLE for it to happen. In other words, her first obligation was to me, she should have told her friends to meet up with us later instead of the other way around.

But no matter what I said she would apologize for the fact that the situation was fukked up, but she wouldn't acknowledge that she had done wrong or had any responsibility in the outcome by altering plans in the first place.

"I can't say no to my best friend"???

That's funny, cause the night i fukked you in my jacuzzi that same best friend was PRETTY pissed when you wouldn't get out of my hot tub to leave with her, and that same best friend was also pissed the night a couple of months later when you canceled plans with her to hang with me.

But no matter what I said she couldn't see it and refused to take any responsibility.

I would say that something like this should not be tolerated, but unless it's a serious or chronic problem, you pretty much just have to let it be known that you disapprove of her actions (give her a strike, if you will) and move on.

I just don't understand how women can rationalize such BS.

 

[guru1000]

I am sure we all know an AFC or two who lacks accountability as well. Any person, male or female, who feels powerless will not be held accountable for his/her actions.

This is the victim mentality, "BooHoo, woe is me."

Most women WILL not be held accountable simply because they lack CONTROL over their lives. Rather to take responsibility, they pass the blame to absolve themselves of liability.

True Producers in life KNOW they are the creators of their destiny. They BLAME no one but themselves for their misfortune. As a result, they take it upon themselves to take initiative, improve and rectify the problem.

I feel sorry for a man or woman who lacks accountability. The truth of the matter is they create their own mishaps in doing so.

 

[Knight's Cross]

STR8UP, you were played by a 22YO. What I'm seeing is a (girl) that sort of likes you....read interest level below the 50 yd. line. She is with you if she has no other greater options. I know that sounds harsh. I don't mean to bring you down. Get out of there, find a plate that's a little more into you. One that the sun rises and sets on what you say to her. The one that SCRAPBOOKS your relationship. You'll know it when you see it. I'm sure you've had it happen already.
That's my take.

KC

 

[KontrollerX]

STR8UP, you were played by a 22YO. What I'm seeing is a (girl) that sort of likes you....read interest level below the 50 yd. line. She is with you if she has no other greater options. I know that sounds harsh. I don't mean to bring you down. Get out of there, find a plate that's a little more into you. One that the sun rises and sets on what you say to her. The one that SCRAPBOOKS your relationship. You'll know it when you see it. I'm sure you've had it happen already.
That's my take.

KC

Agreed with Knights Cross here as well I agree with you about the lack of accountability thing Str8up.

This chick is clearly all over the place in her head and is a definite next as the interest level may of been sky high to do all that jacuzzi fvcking and leaving her best friend behind in the past but in the present we can all see who is more important to her and it isn't you.

Time for a new and better plate dude.

 

[jophil28]

"I can't say no to my best friend"???
I just don't understand how women can rationalize such BS.

They just make it all up as they go along. There is NO logic or consistency in most women's behavior when it comes to dating and relationships with men . They behave like children -driven by whims, feelings and impulses. What "feels" right IS right.
However do not ever believe that they are incapable of rational thought.
They can balance their finances, drive a car, graduate and and hold down a good job, all of which require a high level of personal responsibility and "ownership " .. The problems arise in their relaationships with men.. They seem to have a deeply entrenched belief that they can say and do whatever they please with no inconvenient consequences. They believe that their pvssy contribution pays for their ticket and removes any other obligation to act maturely and with respect.

I know women in their 50's who hold down high level management jobs BUT act like middle schoolers in their personal life.
I have always thought that women hold a view that a relationship is what men work for and create for women to enjoy the benefits and rewards.

 

[STR8UP]

Time for a new and better plate dude.

Plates are evaluated based upon the effort it takes to keep them spinning vs. the return you get from the interaction. She is going away to school and it's a good opportunity for me to set up a low maintenance plate. I have no (read low) expectations, and I am constantly vigilant weighing out the pros vs. the cons.

You can say "well if you had ten other plates you wouldn't yada yada" but the fact of the matter is I have no desire for that. I pick up plates as they come along. If this one turns out to be more trouble than she's worth she will get tossed aside just as others have recently. No sweat off my back.

 

[Warrior74]

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=6Y9BukEBI9c:crazy:

 

[DJDamage]

Many Women have as much accountability as a 5 year old child, and the logic of a 5 year child is this:

"I go where the fun is" - simple isn't it??!!

Which is exectly what this woman did without even thinking about the consequences (or giving a damn about them).

Don't take this chick seriously. It also shows a low interest from her part by pulling this sh1t with you.

She gets there and I explain to her that it wasn't cool to have "stood me up" like that. I reminded her that she initially had plans with ME, to which she replied that she "couldn't turn her best friend down" I of course called her on that line of sh!t, which did no good, but then she kept going on and on about how she wasn't having a good time and she tried to get everyone to go meet up with me but they wouldn't leave and that she wasn't driving, and how could I blame her if she had no control over the situation, etc.

I once again explained to her that it wasn't cool that she changed plans in the first place, and it ESPECIALLY wasn't cool that she ditched out on plans with me two nights in a row, regardless of whether or not her hands were tied. I explained that her "I can't say no to my friend" line was utter BS, and that regardless of the fact that she couldn't have imagined that the same thing would have happened twice in a row, she shouldn't have put herself in the position where it would have been POSSIBLE for it to happen. In other words, her first obligation was to me, she should have told her friends to meet up with us later instead of the other way around.

But no matter what I said she would apologize for the fact that the situation was fukked up, but she wouldn't acknowledge that she had done wrong or had any responsibility in the outcome by altering plans in the first place.

If a chick acts like this, its not a good idea to lecture her because when you lecture someone it puts them on the defensive end to try and justify their actions. A better way is to say little as possible and withdraw your attention as a form of punishment. This way you can gauge her response to this new development as a result of her actions, and if she is interested in continuing her relationship with you she will panic then appologize or try to make it up to you. Then you can reward her with your attention again. If not then she ain't worth your time.

 

[Jeffst1980]

She's 22 years old, and she's behaving like a 22 year old. Her priorities are going out with her friends, without any regard for things like another person's plans.

She probably doesn't believe she did anything wrong because she's in an age group where plans change on a whim. She probably assumed that you would be fine with going along with her and her friends when things took that turn.

I don't see you gaining anything by lecturing her on manners, and ignoring phone calls is really just sulking. In this situation, since she's a plate, you're just going to have to accept that this is how she behaves and decide whether or not you want to continue seeing her. It sounds like, given that she's away at school, you are NOT doing this because you desire an LTR with her; therefore, you shouldn't be putting much effort into this, and you definitely shouldn't get all worked up over stuff like this.

You are not going to make her change like this because she is not a high interest girl. When you get pissy and argue, whether or not it's justified (and yes, in this case it is totally justified), you are just dropping her IL by giving her bad, awkward vibes. It looks to her like you are trying to control HER--when, in a high interest scenario, SHE should be the one trying to control YOU.

 

[STR8UP]

For the record.....I'm about this F'in close to ditching this forum due to the 10 post rule. I'm sure it won't be a big loss but I'm tired of wasting my time coming here and not even being able to respond to something if I want to. That said.....

She probably doesn't believe she did anything wrong because she's in an age group where plans change on a whim. She probably assumed that you would be fine with going along with her and her friends when things took that turn.

I agree. She is from the ADD generation. They are used to so much stimulation and the concept of making plans and keeping them is almost a foreign concept to them.

I don't see you gaining anything by lecturing her on manners,

I agree with this as well. She was actually pissy with me for me making her feel like she has to justify herself. It doesn't do any good to "rationalize with a person with this mindset.

and ignoring phone calls is really just sulking.

I wasn't sulking, I just didn't feel like talking to her, and thats exactly what I told her, that I wasn't "pissed", but I didn't have anything to say to her at that moment.

It sounds like, given that she's away at school, you are NOT doing this because you desire an LTR with her; therefore, you shouldn't be putting much effort into this, and you definitely shouldn't get all worked up over stuff like this.

I didn't get worked up over it, but at the same time i felt she disrespected me and as counterproductive as it may be I HATE letting it slide 100%. I mean, when a woman does something that puts you out there should be SOME consequence to her actions. It's almost human nature to see what you can get away with, and a little disrespect now can turn into a lot of disrespect down the road.

You are not going to make her change like this because she is not a high interest girl. When you get pissy and argue, whether or not it's justified (and yes, in this case it is totally justified), you are just dropping her IL by giving her bad, awkward vibes. It looks to her like you are trying to control HER--when, in a high interest scenario, SHE should be the one trying to control YOU.

You are absolutely correct. And this is why I treated it in a matter of fact way, and when she wanted to come back and "talk" I told her to just go have fun with her friend (not in a pissy way) and when she's done with that to let me know then we would talk. And wouldn't you know, I go to get lunch and when I come back 45 minutes later there she is sitting on my doorstep waiting for me. She KNEW she fukked up, but she's a chick and as such she can't admit it.

If a chick acts like this, its not a good idea to lecture her because when you lecture someone it puts them on the defensive end to try and justify their actions. A better way is to say little as possible and withdraw your attention as a form of punishment. This way you can gauge her response to this new development as a result of her actions, and if she is interested in continuing her relationship with you she will panic then appologize or try to make it up to you. Then you can reward her with your attention again. If not then she ain't worth your time.

I am a firm believer in the idea that the main form of currency and leverage a man has against a woman is attention. Unfortunately in this situation I tried to withdraw my attention by ignoring her attempts to contact me, but the fact remained that she was staying at my place and i was responsible for getting her home, so it isn't like I could have just refused to see her for a week. I was kind of walking the line with blowing her off, but i think i timed it right to the point where she understood that I disapproved of her actions.

They just make it all up as they go along. There is NO logic or consistency in most women's behavior when it comes to dating and relationships with men . They behave like children -driven by whims, feelings and impulses. What "feels" right IS right.

That's EXACTLY what I was thinking when she pulled the "I can't say no to my best friend" line. She hesitated for a second and it sounded like she had no better answer and made it up on the fly just so she had SOME kind of excuse. I don't even think she believed it herself.

Thing about all of this is that this is a good girl. And when I say "good" I don't mean that she's "different" or "special", but she isn't a selfish, conniving, evil b!tch. She's just trying to survive the way she was taught (as a woman) and it sucks cause as a person she's the real deal and has good intentions.

It's kind of disheartening to know that most all women are capable of this type of behavior, but I guess we have to deal with it.