Why "working on yourself" outside of game, on its own, isn't going to get you lots of women.

[Jesse Pinkman]

a super majority of people here are doing fine in life but lack the social skills, hence his advice. Probably the second largest group are people who dated psychotic women and are looking for answers as to what happened and why.

I am the latter lol.

Social skills alone will not save you, that's just the truth. The thing about game is that you have to learn it, actively practice it, and then keep at it until you get better. I compare it to anything else like bodybuilding and learning to play an instrument, you have to focus at it specifically and dedicate the time in the week to do it. If you do not, then you will decline in it and become a stiff. Give it six solid months of practice and going out constantly if you want to get good.

 

[Zimbabwe]

Paid self helps courses are scummy by nature because the whole point of self-help is that in the end only you can do the work and improve yourself. Others are just guidance and there’s a bunch of free content which is enough for people if they actually just apply the stuff. The problem is they do what’s known as ‘action faking’ where they watch these self help vids and it makes them feel like they’re taking action when they’re actually not. The people selling the courses will be like “oh it’s all about accountability, we’re here to make sure you actually take action” but you don’t need to pay to do that, you can get a friend to hold you accountable or you can hold yourself accountable. Ultimately when it comes down to it, you’re going have to hold yourself accountable to do the work – especially when the course is over and how driven you are starts to decrease over time.

 

[Fruitbat]

I've been rated 6-7/10 by members on this forum and never banged women from 18-25 when I was supposedly working on myself, so I can see how all that working on yourself doesn't mean you will get laid.

In fact, only when I started to actively practice game and asking women out, going on dates did I get better.

Of course working on yourself has its merits, but it should never be for the sole purpose of "being the prize". What it serves, as I have realized, as pillars of stability that you can fall back on to get some semblance of groundedness when your sexual relationships don't go so well.

It actually makes it easier to walk away from toxic situations with women when you have other areas of your life that you equally enjoy.

If you read my thread, I am talking specifically about socially normal guys who had the normal life you speak of. Those very guys underachieved with women tremendously. You also completely glossed over what I was trying to say in this thread. Having your sh-t together should be a bare minimum but on its own, its not going to get you anything.

Living a "normal" life won't get you girls, you cannot take a passive approach to it and for you to berate guys who go out and focus on daygame is very telling. Most guys on here can collectively agree that if you want to get good with women and get good looking women in your life, it has to be a focused and proactive effort.

The thread was too long bro!

 

[Hamurabimbi]

Working on oneself (other than improving physical appearance) won’t necessarily get one a women. Getting healthy, wealthy & wise is just a ‘Good’. Certainly better than sickly, poor & foolish. Getting women just happens. It’s part of life. But one has to be out there (that can mean at a club, on Tinder, doing work at a coffeshop rather than at home. Going to social events...) and ready to take advantage of opportunities. Or creating your own.

 

[DEEZEDBRAH]

Frequent relocations have a way of destroying social circles. I had multiple relocations prior to the end of high school and some as an adult too. I never had a social circle to rely upon for arranging dates at any point in my life. My options have either been to cold approach or to use dating websites (pre-2012) or swipe apps (2012-present). When confronted with those two choices, approaching strangers in person is the better choice.

It doesn't matter how much I work on myself. I think self-improvement efforts are a good thing but meaningless unless you make the approaches or somehow develop a social circle capable of arranging dates for you. Both paths are challenging.

In all my life, it wasn't ever a scenario or option. A close buddy suggest I date a girl his wife's close friends with. I always prefer cold approach and #next in social circle game is a great way to implode it. She was a hard 7 maybe 7.5. Think girl next door. Not sure if it's generational or what but, unlike the boomers, our generation doesn't introduce or setup. Would you have preferred it? I've grown in ways I couldn't have with game but I think there's growth had we followed our biology. Grew up on the 50s. Wife and kids etc. I think there's a more higher chance for either epic failure or success with social circle.

The caliber from cold approach is a ton better. Obviously use all avenues and run the funnel. I prefer pickup. I thrive on it. I prefer pickup to RP though I larger agree with both. You see a lot of pickup is still blue pill. Mystery being the most apparent example in the game. How's your reads going playboy?

Have you read Clarreys menu? Superb read. Him and troy I give a ton of credit. He essentially says the 50s ideal isn't on the menu. To be open to girls. Cast your reel and bait girls. Invest 0 feels or any psychological investment. Play to win but allocate your bandwidth elsewhere to higher feats and endeavors.

 

[DEEZEDBRAH]

Paid self helps courses are scummy by nature because the whole point of self-help is that in the end only you can do the work and improve yourself. Others are just guidance and there’s a bunch of free content which is enough for people if they actually just apply the stuff. The problem is they do what’s known as ‘action faking’ where they watch these self help vids and it makes them feel like they’re taking action when they’re actually not. The people selling the courses will be like “oh it’s all about accountability, we’re here to make sure you actually take action” but you don’t need to pay to do that, you can get a friend to hold you accountable or you can hold yourself accountable. Ultimately when it comes down to it, you’re going have to hold yourself accountable to do the work – especially when the course is over and how driven you are starts to decrease over time.

Agreed though I think majority of us would be better off taking a BC with a OG. It's hilarious but my biggest pickup regret was not a girl. It was not doing a BC in 2010. Could have allocated time and bandwidth elsewhere.

 

[Jesse Pinkman]

It’s just another casualty from early PUA marketing tactics. The truth is that you can be a complete bum and still get laid. The guys that get laid a lot know the types of girls they can attract and act on it. Now, if you want some Bachelor degree or higher Stacy living in Manhattan then yes, being a bum is going to work against you. However, if you are some bum Ray Ray and Pookie that chases crack addicts/hood rats then you don’t need money or shvt. The dating market rewards the bottom and top value men much more than guys in the midgle

Meant to reply to this earlier. The guys who get laid being bums or "struggling artists" as they call them can only pull that whole thing off in a certain way. A lot of these guys might be poor but they play at a bar or at a venue that attracts certain women. You can only pull that off in your twenties, after that it becomes cringey and people start to look down on you for it. Anyone who has low enough standards can get laid.

The problem is that guys "work on themselves" ultimately for women, not for themselves, which is a sinister form of simping. It's the same as women who dress like sluts at the gym and claim it's "for themselves" - it's a feminine mindset to do anything for women's approval.

You should only do things that you enjoy. For instance I bought a dual sport motorcycle as my sole transportation method knowing full well that most women in actuality have zero interest in motorcycles and do not want to ride one. I didn't opt to buy a German made car I couldn't afford just for the status and comfort it provides them.

Richard Cooper and others talk about this a lot and while it's true that women are more attracted to you if you're on your path and whatnot, at the end of the day game is absolutely paramount, you cannot escape it.

The most beautiful thing about doing game and setting aside time for it is that you are being real with yourself. You admit to yourself that you are doing it because you want to get laid and it comes across as a lot more genuine. It's tough to do game though and that is why 95% of men usually drop out fast.

 

[Jesse Pinkman]

I've been rated 6-7/10 by members on this forum and never banged women from 18-25 when I was supposedly working on myself, so I can see how all that working on yourself doesn't mean you will get laid.

In fact, only when I started to actively practice game and asking women out, going on dates did I get better.

Of course working on yourself has its merits, but it should never be for the sole purpose of "being the prize". What it serves, as I have realized, as pillars of stability that you can fall back on to get some semblance of groundedness when your sexual relationships don't go so well.

It actually makes it easier to walk away from toxic situations with women when you have other areas of your life that you equally enjoy.

Such is the story of most normal guys I knew. Above average looks, decent social skills, good enough career, but still stuck with women in their social circles or off of dating apps. "Game" and cold approach in and of themselves are such an unfair cheat code in life and in dating, they take you places that other avenues cannot. The only downside is that they are quite the investment and test you emotionally.

 

[SW15]

Not sure if it's generational or what but, unlike the boomers, our generation doesn't introduce or setup. Would you have preferred it?

I think there's a more higher chance for either epic failure or success with social circle.

The chart below shows how social circle game has been fading for 30 years. I agree that social circle introductions have been declining with Millennials. Boomers were good at doing those things. I have known a few Millennials who have received social circle introductions.

In many ways, having a viable social circle would have made my life easier. If I would have had that social circle, perhaps I would have been a divorced, blue pill beta who got divorce raped so that would have been worse. An ideal combo would be Alpha male with a strong social circle. I'm more of a Sigma male and by definition, Sigma males don't have social circles as Sigmas tend to be more introverted lone wolf types.

Have you read Clarreys menu? Superb read. Him and troy I give a ton of credit. He essentially says the 50s ideal isn't on the menu. To be open to girls. Cast your reel and bait girls. Invest 0 feels or any psychological investment. Play to win but allocate your bandwidth elsewhere to higher feats and endeavors.

Haven't read it.

 

[Zimbabwe]

The chart below shows how social circle game has been fading for 30 years. I agree that social circle introductions have been declining with Millennials. Boomers were good at doing those things. I have known a few Millennials who have received social circle introductions.

In many ways, having a viable social circle would have made my life easier. If I would have had that social circle, perhaps I would have been a divorced, blue pill beta who got divorce raped so that would have been worse. An ideal combo would be Alpha male with a strong social circle. I'm more of a Sigma male and by definition, Sigma males don't have social circles as Sigmas tend to be more introverted lone wolf types.



Haven't read it.

In modern dating, Being socially awkward as a guy is basically a death sentence. I used to be really socially awkward, I got a ton of one date wonders early on from OLD until I did something about it.

In the past a socially awkward man could just work hard in his career and use provider game to secure a traditional wife.

These days socially awkward guys end up as incels, they can do self improvement as much as they like but it won't do anything because women rarely if ever approach men.

 

[SW15]

In modern dating, Being socially awkward as a guy is basically a death sentence. I used to be really socially awkward, I got a ton of one date wonders early on from OLD until I did something about it.

In the past a socially awkward man could just work hard in his career and use provider game to secure a traditional wife.

These days socially awkward guys end up as incels, they can do self improvement as much as they like but it won't do anything because women rarely if ever approach men.

This has been a change from the Boomer generation to the Millennial generation. Gen Z isn't likely to change this trend either.

Two factors changed this...

1. There is a surplus of single men to single women in the 18-39 age range. Men don't start to get a numerical advantage until their 40s and that's only for 40 something men who want to date 40 something women. Starting new relationships with 40 something women is not some fantastic prize.
2. Women have access to more men due to swipe apps and social media. In 1990, a 30 year old woman who was single could only get dates based on how much she was approached and how good her social life was. Even a 30 year woman who worked hard at her social life and went to a lot of in-person organized events in 1990 could only get a fraction of the attention that her 30 year old equivalent in 2010-present has been able to get with swipe apps and social media.

Because of immense female choice, basic beta males have been punished. I know of some men in the Boomer generation (1946-1964 birth years) that have had decent relationship/sex lives over decades. Maybe divorces, 2-3 marriages or one long relationship/marriage. Maybe some slow years in the bedroom due to the long marriages. However, even in slow bedroom years, they still got more sex than their Millennial incel or nearly incel equivalents.

 

[DEEZEDBRAH]

The chart below shows how social circle game has been fading for 30 years. I agree that social circle introductions have been declining with Millennials. Boomers were good at doing those things. I have known a few Millennials who have received social circle introductions.

Yeah. My buddy suggested an introduction. Cute girl. I always preferred baddies, young, reckless. Not playing house. Last heard she's engaged or something. Only had a few boyfriends and very LTRS.

In many ways, having a viable social circle would have made my life easier. If I would have had that social circle, perhaps I would have been a divorced, blue pill beta who got divorce raped so that would have been worse. An ideal combo would be Alpha male with a strong social circle. I'm more of a Sigma male and by definition, Sigma males don't have social circles as Sigmas tend to be more introverted lone wolf types.

Rollo says it doesn't exist but thinks Gama and the others exist. Not sure I agree.

By your definition above, I lean more sigma too. March to the beat of my own drum. Closer to mgtow then blue pill. Swinging bachelor more like it. Married to the game through and through. Majority of RP are playing house. A miniscule amount of men agreement alpha. Simps are Gama males. Not even beta. Majority of blue pill are married betas. YouTube is full of them.

I think there's variations of any spectrum. So I agree with you. Beta is a strong #2 contrary to married dating coaches and house husband's.

Black pill is more Gama male and what mystery referred to as weeded out of existence and from the dating pool.

Haven't read it.

Worth a read whenever you get to it. How are your current reads?

I got to agree with you. Say I never learned pickup and game, say I married that girl or another from social circle, likely I get divorce raped. Cucked even.

It's sort of a blessing in disguise.

 

[3agle 3yes]

Working on yourself is probably one of the best bits of advice you’ll hear. The problem is, most people just regurgitate it without actually knowing what is meant by it.

As anyone who has worked in marketing and advertising would know, if it’s clear you want something from someone, you’ll repel them. You can’t just go up to random people and try to sell them something, because they’ll reject it even if it’s something they want, you have to found out if it’s something they actually need and help them find out.

Then, you need to slowly move through the stages (I actually practice something that looks like a sales funnel when it comes to women) to get to where you want.

People want to buy, they don’t want to be sold to.

And it’s very similar with game. If you have nothing going for you in your life, and I’m not talking about going to the gym or making 120k, I’m talking about actually having a path in your life which brings you joy and fulfilment, then getting laid will most likely fill that hole, and that’s not a good place to be.

This will make some men desperate and most people can smell this from a mile away, or worse still, if they eventually do become good at game, it’ll easily become their life, and all they’ll do is game, day in - day out, thinking they’ve reached the pinnacle of life.

Having fulfilment and enjoyment outside of women, will prevent you from needing women to fill that hole, but you can want them.

• Some men feel uneasy if the women they’re with go out without them and enjoy themselves.
• Some men feel jealous if the woman they were trying to get with chooses someone else.
• Some men base their whole worth on whether women find them attractive or not.

Most of this can be managed if you have joy and fulfilment in life outside of women, this originally meant “working on yourself”.

 

[anonymous12345]

Frequent relocations have a way of destroying social circles. I had multiple relocations prior to the end of high school and some as an adult too. I never had a social circle to rely upon for arranging dates at any point in my life. My options have either been to cold approach or to use dating websites (pre-2012) or swipe apps (2012-present). When confronted with those two choices, approaching strangers in person is the better choice.

It doesn't matter how much I work on myself. I think self-improvement efforts are a good thing but meaningless unless you make the approaches or somehow develop a social circle capable of arranging dates for you. Both paths are challenging.

I could have written all this about me, it's just as applicable. Haven't heard about sigma males before; yeah, sounds like me too.

 

[Jesse Pinkman]

Bringing it all back, just so everyone got my point because it is worth summarizing.

1. Prioritize on improving yourself. Get in good shape, get a nice paying job, get good logistics, and learn social skills.

2. Do not expect number 1 to be even nearly enough to score hot girls, it is the bare minimum.

3. Once you get 1 handled, dedicate time solely to getting good at game and getting laid, ideally by moving to a big city.

4. Do not think for one second that without 3, you will ever get good with women or get hot girls, at least not regularly.

 

[DEEZEDBRAH]

Bringing it all back, just so everyone got my point because it is worth summarizing.

1. Prioritize on improving yourself. Get in good shape, get a nice paying job, get good logistics, and learn social skills.

This above is a necessity for 99%. There are fellas like canjun keys to the vip and off the old mystery forums. Broke. Couch surfing. Not good job. Has 2/3 handled. Likely in his 40s now. Outlook can't be good if he hasn't evolved. Curious how long a nomad or dude off the grid could survive and playboy it up?

2. Do not expect number 1 to be even nearly enough to score hot girls, it is the bare minimum.

I know several guys who fall into the got game and plow everything arena. I'd argue it's a lot easier late 90s or early 2000s then today. Modern women are entitled as f and of the lowest caliber in history. Only fans and sugar babies, ran through, abortions, boss girl rhetoric, 0 value added, and the following is majority fall into this one way or another. Men are actually pursuing this?

3. Once you get 1 handled, dedicate time solely to getting good at game and getting laid, ideally by moving to a big city.

Yeah. Then again I rather do pickup in Phenix versus Miami. I rather go to ibiza or cancun over a lot of larger cities. NYC, London, LA, etc are volume and tourists are everywhere. I'm preferring more niche places but that's coming out of the London model and scene. Maybe I'm jaded.

4. Do not think for one second that without 3, you will ever get good with women or get hot girls, at least not regularly.

I think you can blow out a small city fairly easily and get a rep. Would recommend that a guy starts away from home and fumble away from your neck of the woods. Evolve as you get better. @SW15 sniper approach once calibrated and you've done the work.

I'd take cold approach over OLD any day. OLD is too passive. It promotes spectator mode and inaction. Obv utilize everything.

 

[DEEZEDBRAH]

Working on yourself is probably one of the best bits of advice you’ll hear. The problem is, most people just regurgitate it without actually knowing what is meant by it.

As anyone who has worked in marketing and advertising would know, if it’s clear you want something from someone, you’ll repel them. You can’t just go up to random people and try to sell them something, because they’ll reject it even if it’s something they want, you have to found out if it’s something they actually need and help them find out.

Then, you need to slowly move through the stages (I actually practice something that looks like a sales funnel when it comes to women) to get to where you want.

People want to buy, they don’t want to be sold to.

And it’s very similar with game. If you have nothing going for you in your life, and I’m not talking about going to the gym or making 120k, I’m talking about actually having a path in your life which brings you joy and fulfilment, then getting laid will most likely fill that hole, and that’s not a good place to be.

This will make some men desperate and most people can smell this from a mile away, or worse still, if they eventually do become good at game, it’ll easily become their life, and all they’ll do is game, day in - day out, thinking they’ve reached the pinnacle of life.

Having fulfilment and enjoyment outside of women, will prevent you from needing women to fill that hole, but you can want them.

• Some men feel uneasy if the women they’re with go out without them and enjoy themselves.
• Some men feel jealous if the woman they were trying to get with chooses someone else.
• Some men base their whole worth on whether women find them attractive or not.

Most of this can be managed if you have joy and fulfilment in life outside of women, this originally meant “working on yourself”.

+1

The hardest part is the motivation for modern men is lacking. Your average woman 5'5 and 14 stone.

Thinks she deserves Dicaprio, married, wants to keep her name. Yeah OK bud.

BRB guys, Charging up troll cannon.

It be ideal to cultivate the game you can pull a baddie while couch surfing or living in your mom's basement &&& you have the 1/4 mill a year biz salary. Not likely.

There's a rule set required. Not sure why it's foreign particularly on the YouTubes. Women don't build. They nest after the fact. They deserve after the fact privilege. Nothing more.

Modern women are unfit physically and from a LTR perspective. The idea of staying power is a foreign concept as is fitness. The game is funny. Seeing the outcomes that stupidity yields is hilarious.

Life trolls modern women Harder than you or I ever could. Get your popcorn out bud. Thr Show is about to start.

If you thought the bearded lady at the circus was repugnant wait till you see modern women in the future.

 

[Jesse Pinkman]

@DEEZEDBRAH

Yeah bro, very few people actually get it right in the end. You have one end who thinks that it should all come naturally if you get a nice career and all. Now these guys are better off because they have other stuff in their life handled but most of the times, they are sleeping with 6s from their social circle and maybe LTRing a hot girl.

Then on the other extreme you have the PUA bums who are more common than you think. These guys are just leeches man. They will walk around the mall spam approaching and won't even buy anything. They will go to a bar and not even get a drink, only there to spam approach. Most of them do not even have their lives together but just put too much focus on game.

As for the nomad dude types and these dudes in general, life hits them hard after a certain point. Around 30, the dudes who messed around jumping from country to country trying to live the nomad life realize that they need a real job. Not soon after, they end up getting an entry level job at the age of 30 and realize how far behind they really are. You notice the frustration on their end too as they are in their 30s and doing stuff that is meant for 20-somethings fresh out of college.

The very few who get it right usually do it in this order:

1. Get finances and career secure, sacrifice a couple of years or a few for that.
2. Money good? Move to a good city with good logistics.
3. Dedicate weekends to game and learning it right.
4. Make sure you are looksmaxed.

 

[MatureDJ]

The chart below shows how social circle game has been fading for 30 years. I agree that social circle introductions have been declining with Millennials. Boomers were good at doing those things. I have known a few Millennials who have received social circle introductions.

In many ways, having a viable social circle would have made my life easier. If I would have had that social circle, perhaps I would have been a divorced, blue pill beta who got divorce raped so that would have been worse. An ideal combo would be Alpha male with a strong social circle. I'm more of a Sigma male and by definition, Sigma males don't have social circles as Sigmas tend to be more introverted lone wolf types.

A Sigma male is someone who obviously not Alpha, doesn't try to fake his way into being an Alpha (i.e., that would be a Gamma), is not totally hopeless (i.e., that would be an Omega), and thus could be at least a lower-tier Beta, but doesn't want to go down that path.

 

[lost_blackbird]

But there is no immediately obvious/measurable way for him to know that his social skills are lacking. So it is very easy to miss or neglect this area.

The solitary life I perpetually live is a pretty accurate yardstick to be fair.
I dont try to make friends with anyone and I won't chase women either. So
I guess I have made my own (empty) bed, now all I have to do is lay in it.