Why should prostitution be illegal?

[ketostix]

Amsterdam RULES.

But it's full crime, violence, even murder and rape, drugs and women being used as property!

 

[Deep Dish]

For years, I have been meaning to write an essay treatise extolling why prostitution is okay and should be legal, but alas suffice to say writing about debauchery takes a low priority. There was even one thread on here—and last I checked it still exists—wherein I knocked down every argument of ethics. (There was actually one argument left standing but the thread was closed before I could respond.) My writing plate is full at the moment, but I just want to give the unique argument that prosititution was recognized by ancient cultures as actually doing some community good; which is to say, they recognized that if a husband cheats on his wife, he will, best it be no-strings with a professional than risking the emotional ensarements of a full-blown affair. I cite Desmond Morris' fantastic book The Human Sexes.

 

[STR8UP]

But it's full crime, violence, even murder and rape, drugs and women being used as property!

And you know what's funny? It's more of a show than anything. I ran into Mike Tyson in the RLD. It was one big party.

No doubt people go there (I say people cause I even saw COUPLES entering the rooms) for the specific purpose of fukking hookers, but it's more of a novelty than anything. 15 minutes of mechanical masturbation by another human being? Not very fulfilling, but I believe it has its place and should be LEGALIZED, nonetheless.

 

[Wired for Sound]

OK let's see your evidence and statistics that back up everything you said.

Here's a start:

"In a study of 475 people in prostitution from five countries (South Africa, Thailand, Turkey, USA, and Zambia):
62% reported having been raped in prostitution.
73% reported having experienced physical assault in prostitution.
92% stated that they wanted to escape prostitution immediately.
(Melissa Farley, Isin Baral, Merab Kiremire, Ufuk Sezgin, "Prostitution in Five Countries: Violence and Posttraumatic Stress Disorder" (1998) Feminism & Psychology 8 (4): 405-426)"

And you're missing my point that but criminalizing something of course it will lead to more crime and even pimps than if it were legalized and regulated.

I got your point. Your logic is that if we legalize a crime, that there will be less crime committed. But you never answered my question...why not take it one step further and completely eradicate crime all together and legalize EVERY crime? No more traffic tickets, no more prisons, no need for police, DEA, FBI, Homeland Security...hell, no need for a government.

I don't care about prostitution either, it's just a discussion. I'm more concerned about the way "Big Brother" operates in general and it's heavy hand where it doesn't belong.

My position is the United States government (or as "Big Brother" as you and Last Man Standing prefer to refer to it as) lays its heavy hand wherever it's needed. Since some of us are obviously completely inept when it comes to running our own lives and/or protecting our children, sometimes the government needs to step in. But that's a discussion for a different day I think.

No you made it clear that the moment a person directly pays for sex suddenly crime pops up everywhere. You were lumping crime in with payment for sex.

That's because it's...a crime, and the stats show that it leads to MORE crime. I still don't see where I'm going wrong.

Well I don't see your point. No one's saying prostitution is risk free, only that the crime and risks are being overblown and that you're not establishing a link to crime and prostitution.

I don't HAVE to establish a link. The burden of proof is on you, since numbers don't lie. In order to say that prostitution does NOT lead to other crimes, you need to find a way to discount every study and every scientific analysis ever done on the subject and then maybe you can go to congress with your findings. Until then, the Earth stays round.

You're not a woman I presume, so I don't even know what the point is comparing yourself buying a bag to a woman hooking.

Illegal acts. One's dangerous and one's not.

 

[ketostix]

Here's a start:

"In a study of 475 people in prostitution from five countries (South Africa, Thailand, Turkey, USA, and Zambia):
62% reported having been raped in prostitution.
73% reported having experienced physical assault in prostitution.
92% stated that they wanted to escape prostitution immediately.
(Melissa Farley, Isin Baral, Merab Kiremire, Ufuk Sezgin, "Prostitution in Five Countries: Violence and Posttraumatic Stress Disorder" (1998) Feminism & Psychology 8 (4): 405-426)"

OK I would give you props for posting a "study" supporting your position. But I can't put credence in one that is, authored by "Feminism & Psychology" and throws the USA in with statitistics with South Africa, Thailand, Turkey, and Zambia in the mix. I thought that would go without saying. Why didn't this study combine the USA with the Netherlands, Germany and Australia? That's what I thought. When I get time maybe I'll address the other shaky points in your post.

 

[BLebowski]

And you know what's funny? It's more of a show than anything. I ran into Mike Tyson in the RLD. It was one big party.

No doubt people go there (I say people cause I even saw COUPLES entering the rooms) for the specific purpose of fukking hookers, but it's more of a novelty than anything. 15 minutes of mechanical masturbation by another human being? Not very fulfilling, but I believe it has its place and should be LEGALIZED, nonetheless.

Well as a 'local', when I'm really horny, walk back from a night out and didn't score anything in the club(s) or bars, I sometimes walk in too. It's better than causing loads of trouble since you didn't score any and it beats Miss Rosey Palm too. So yeah, it's mostly tons of tourists (drunken Brits, USA backpackers) and locals who mostly are in the RLD district to go to bars (kroeg) there or are passers by. It's a fun area to walk around in though..lots of stuff happening.

We're all BADBADBAD people over here, smoking pot and fvcking hookers ALL day long. :crackup:

Enjoy it while it lasts...our Christian'Democratic' 50'ies-style government is starting to crack down on sex and softdrugs over here.

 

[fireguy]

Prostitution became legal here in norway a few years ago, and now you cant walk down the streat without some ugly african hiv ridden hooker sleezing and grabing at you. Our main shopping street and are now infected by them.

 

[bigjohnson]

Want to know why it's illegal? You can't tax it easily.

Sure you can. They tax the guy that mows my lawn and the chick that cleans my house. All manner of service industry work is legal AND taxed. If it's not too much trouble you think you can put down the joint and actually think your argument through for 3 minutes next time?

 

[bigjohnson]

Here's a start:

"In a study of 475 people in prostitution from five countries (South Africa, Thailand, Turkey, USA, and Zambia):

Countries where the service is not legalized, moron.

 

[ketostix]

Prostitution became legal here in norway a few years ago, and now you cant walk down the streat without some ugly african hiv ridden hooker sleezing and grabing at you. Our main shopping street and are now infected by them.

This a valid concern but you don't see that bad of a problem in Nevada from what I've seen. And I doubt it's that bad in the Netherlands, Germany or other palces it's legal.

 

[ketostix]

Countries where the service is not legalized, moron.

Not to mention you could take a survey about anything in those countries and come up with horror stories. That study was biased and invalid on its face. Kind of telling that he'd have to resort to a flawed, biased study made by feminist to support his argument.

 

[Wired for Sound]

Countries where the service is not legalized, moron.

Resorting to personal attacks, huh? Now THERE'S a sign of a man confident in himself and his perspective.

ANYWAY, technically you can keep modifying the circumstances all day long until you get the results you want. "Oh, sure prostitutes get raped...but you included TURKEY in your study!" "Oh well, sure prostitutes get murdered in Zambia...but they have sex with BLACK people!" You see? You can go on and on. If you refuse to accept statistics, then there's not much else anybody can say since you've made up to believe whatever you want to believe regardless of what's actually going on. I know a few people like you in real life and I get nowhere with them either.

 

[ketostix]

ANYWAY, technically you can keep modifying the circumstances all day long until you get the results you want. "Oh, sure prostitutes get raped...but you included TURKEY in your study!" "Oh well, sure prostitutes get murdered in Zambia...but they have sex with BLACK people!" You see? You can go on and on. If you refuse to accept statistics, then there's not much else anybody can say since you've made up to believe whatever you want to believe regardless of what's actually going on. I know a few people like you in real life and I get nowhere with them either.

You're the one modifying the circumstances. I never changed the circumstances of my argument: that prostitution in the US should be legal and regulated to a reasonable and necessary degree. And I fully accept valid unbiased statistics but not inaccurate stats.

 

[woods]

Prostitution became legal here in norway a few years ago, and now you cant walk down the streat without some ugly african hiv ridden hooker sleezing and grabing at you. Our main shopping street and are now infected by them.

It doesnt sound like they legalized it, just decriminalized it. Here in Reno, prostitution is illegal, UNLESS you are licensed by the government, disease tested on a VERY regular basis, and employed by an established brothel. This is a WAY different situation than you people are talking about.

Yeah, you can go down 4th street and get a 20 dollar hummer from a diseased crack*****, and risk jailtime, or go to the Wildhorse Saloon, and pay several hundred for a CERTIFIED disease free hot chick who knows how to be safe, and knows how to do it.

All you guys on here keep comparing back-ally hookers to legal callgirls. Do you know the difference between buying heroin on the street from some shady criminal, and legally buying vicodens or percosets or whatever from a licensed pharmacist? Its essentially the same drug, just that the pharmacy route is WAY safer, legal, government monitered, and you are assured a "quality product." Of course we ALL need sex, there is no need for a prescription now is there?

If you think about it, if one could legally buy drugs in a pharmacy, drug dealers would be out of business, people wouldnt share needles, and less people would die from a "bad batch."

Im not advocating prostitution or drug use, but regulate them, and lives will be saved!

 

[bigjohnson]

Resorting to personal attacks, huh?

You say idiotic stuff and I'll call you an idiot. May as well get used to it as a lot of people have similar policies.

ANYWAY, technically you can keep modifying the circumstances all day long until you get the results you want. "Oh, sure prostitutes get raped...but you included TURKEY in your study!" "Oh well, sure prostitutes get murdered in Zambia...but they have sex with BLACK people!" You see? You can go on and on. If you refuse to accept statistics, then there's not much else anybody can say since you've made up to believe whatever you want to believe regardless of what's actually going on. I know a few people like you in real life and I get nowhere with them either.

If you study risks with a behavior ONLY in places where the behavior is ILLEGAL you're gonna get skewed results. If you only do studies in impoverished 3rd world regions you can't apply that outside those regions without some proof as to how it's still valid.

The sample must be representative of the larger group we are trying to draw conclusions about. "100% of the bank robbers who owned handguns used handguns in robbing banks, therefore 100% of handgun owners will rob banks".

That's all the help I have for you as I'm not here to teach you a basic course on statistics sonny.

You're either pushing an agenda or you're a moron. I went with moron as there's nothing you can do about that so I figured it's the least insulting option. The other one just makes you a liar.

 

[Wired for Sound]

You say idiotic stuff and I'll call you an idiot. May as well get used to it as a lot of people have similar policies.

Then get used to being known as feeble-minded for not being able to debate without resorting to personal attacks. Only those who aren't entirely secure in themselves and their beliefs would allow some random guy on the Internet with a moniker implying that they have a large penis using playground insults to affect them. By all means, if you think referring to those which whom you disagree with as "morons" advances your argument...then please continue. Makes no difference to me.

If you only do studies in impoverished 3rd world regions you can't apply that outside those regions without some proof as to how it's still valid.

The United States and Turkey was included in the study. Say goodbye to that one.

That's all the help I have for you as I'm not here to teach you a basic course on statistics (personal attack deleted).

My college professor believed that my understanding of Statistics warranted an "A". Thanks anyway, "bigjohnson". If you really want to get into a discussion of why that study is valid when taking into account stratified sampling and advanced range and frequency deviation techniques, then we can go there. Be forewarned that this discussion is much, MUCH too simple for that so it'll just further muck up your perspective.

You're either pushing an agenda or you're a moron. I went with moron as there's nothing you can do about that so I figured it's the least insulting option. The other one just makes you a liar.

Quoting a stat that proves your contention wrong is now called a "lie"? Now see, I wish you said that at the beginning. This whole debate is the result of a grave misunderstanding...you aren't using standard English definitions. That would have saved us a LOT of time.

 

[Wired for Sound]

You're the one modifying the circumstances. I never changed the circumstances of my argument: that prostitution in the US should be legal and regulated to a reasonable and necessary degree. And I fully accept valid unbiased statistics but not inaccurate stats.

So why are the statistics invalid again? I forgot. It can't be the legality issues, because street prostitution is legal in Turkey and were included in the study. In Zambia, guys don't care about adult prostitutes because they'd rather have sex with the kiddies (they think having sex with a virgin cures AIDS), so legality has no effect there.

Why don't YOU set the parameters and I'll go find you some more statistics for you. (And none of this "Only polls that made sure that the women had been prostitutes for a week or less!" business. Let's be reasonable.)

 

[ketostix]

So why are the statistics invalid again?

Haven't you ever heard figures don't lie but liars figure. You only posted the clamied results and that the study mixed in the USA with 4 other countries that are 2nd and mostly 3rd world. There was no information provided about population size, whether they were randomly sampled or what the percentages were broken down by nations. So how can anyone automatically say if it was valid? What they should've done is comapred the USA to other first world nations that have legalized prostitution. I wonder why they didn't do that, hmmm?

Anyway let me post another news article more relevent to the topic at hand, whther prostitution should be illegal or not. This what written by an anthropologist and doesn't have stats, but his her observation of 140 working girls at a brothel in Mexico-which isn't exactly the safest place to begin with.

Decriminalize prostitution
Paying for sex is common. The U.S. should follow Mexico's lead and accept that.
By Patty Kelly
March 13, 2008
Eliot Spitzer paid a woman for sex. And got caught. Depending on whose statistics you choose to believe, more than one in every 10 American adult males have paid for sex at some point in their lives. What's more, in 2005, about 84,000 people were arrested across the nation for prostitution-related offenses.

In other words, it's not terribly uncommon. It's a part of our culture, and it's not going away any time soon. Perhaps Spitzer's resignation will help convince Americans that it is finally time to decriminalize prostitution across the country.

Recently, I spent a year working at a legal, state-regulated brothel in Mexico, a nation in which commercial sex is common, visible and, in one-third of the states, legal. I was not working as a prostitute but as an anthropologist, to study and analyze the place of commercial sex in the modern world. I spent my days and nights in close contact with the women who sold sexual services, with their clients and with government bureaucrats who ran the brothel.

Here's what I learned: Most of the workers made some rational choice to be there, sometimes after a divorce, a bad breakup or an economic crisis, acute or chronic. Of the 140 women who worked at the Galactic Zone, as the brothel was called, only five had a pimp (and in each of those cases, they insisted the man was their boyfriend).

The women made their own hours, set their own rates and decided for themselves what sex acts they would perform. Some were happy with the job. (As Gabriela once told me: "You should have seen me before I started working here. I was so depressed.") Others would've preferred to be doing other work, though the employment available to these women in Mexico (servants, factory workers) pays far less for longer hours.

At the Galactic Zone, good-looking clients were appreciated and sometimes resulted in boyfriends; the cheap, miserly and miserable ones were avoided, if possible.

To be sure, the brothel had its dangers: Sexually transmitted diseases and violence were occasionally a part of the picture. But overall, it was safer than the streets, due in part to police protection and condom distribution by government authorities.

Legalizing and regulating prostitution has its own problems -- it stigmatizes sex workers (mostly by requiring them to register with the authorities), subjects them to mandatory medical testing that is not always effective, and gives clients and workers a false sense of security (with respect to sexual health and otherwise).

But criminalization is worse. Sweden's 1998 criminalization of commercial sex -- a measure titled "The Protection of Women" -- appears not to protect them at all. A 2004 report by the Swedish Ministry of Justice and the police found that after it went into effect, prostitution, of course, continued. Meanwhile, prices for sexual services dropped, clients were fewer but more often violent, more wanted to pay for sex and not use a condom -- and sex workers had less time to assess the mental state of their clients because of the fear of getting caught.

New Zealand's 2003 Prostitution Reform Act is perhaps the most progressive response to the complex issue of prostitution. The act not only decriminalizes the practice but seeks to "safeguard the human rights of sex workers and protects them from exploitation, promotes the welfare and occupational health and safety of sex workers, is conducive to public health, [and] prohibits the use in prostitution of persons under 18 years of age."

Furthermore, clients, sex workers and brothel owners bear equal responsibility for minimizing the risks of STD transmission. In 2005, a client was convicted of violating the act by slipping his condom off during sex.

And this brings me to clients. I have met hundreds of men who have paid for sex. Some seek any kind of sex; others want certain kinds of sex; a few look for comfort and conversation.

Saying that all sex workers are victims and all clients are demons is the easy way out. Perhaps it's time to face this fact like adults (or at least like Mexico) -- with a little less moralizing and a good deal more honesty.

As for Spitzer, if he had walked into the Galactic Zone, my questions would have been these: Was he respectful? Was he safe? Did he pay well? If the answer to all three was yes, then, well, I voted for him once, and I'd vote for him again.

Patty Kelly, an anthropology professor at George Washington University, is the author of "Lydia's Open Door: Inside Mexico's Most Modern Brothel," due out in April.

 

[bigjohnson]

Quoting a stat that proves your contention wrong is now called a "lie"?

If you study a subgroup of population 'A' (hookers where hooking is illegal) and use that to make predictions about the criminal behavior of population 'B' (hookers where hooking has been legalized) you're a moron or you're being intentionally misleading..... you decide. Let me know so I know which to assign to YOU.

The other option is for you to PROVE why such a study of group A applies to B despite the obvious issues. But you already refused to DO that.


The entire thread is about why prostitution is illegal with a strong discussion (quoted article) which talks about the effects of it being illegal .... then you quote a study that SUPPORTS the article (in countries where prostitution is illegal a lot of ancillary crime also seems to result) and draw a different, insane conclusion. Wow.


Similarly if you study societal effects of prostitution in a 3rd world country and try to extrapolate that to a 1st world economy .... not good. I wonder why not a SINGLE 1st world country with legalized prostitution was surveyed? Odd. Giving away FOOD had a ton of crime and violence associated with it in Somalia Perhaps charitable food distribution is a horrible crime enabling thing?



Technically 100% of the hookers who work where prostitution is illegal are lawbreakers but THAT stat is pretty transparent too isn't it?

Why don't YOU set the parameters and I'll go find you some more statistics for you.

Who cares? Ultimately what business is it of ours to say someone can give a service away but cannot sell it?

Riding a motorcycle is more than an order of magnitude more likely to cause a person to die than driving a car the same distance. Shall we make bikes illegal? Some would say yes, but I disagree.




If you must, show a study that is not funded by a group with an axe to grind that surveys 1st world countries where prostitution is legal and has been for at least one decade.

 

[bigjohnson]

Not to mention you could take a survey about anything in those countries and come up with horror stories. That study was biased and invalid on its face. Kind of telling that he'd have to resort to a flawed, biased study made by feminist to support his argument.

Telling on a number of fronts really. "Why would one use such a study", and "What sort of person would present it as an argument" are both excellent points for contemplation.