Why I believe cheating can be ethical

[izza]

I wonder how many of you idiots in this thread have children. And actually love your children. Now think about what this sort of reasoning does to families. There is a reason for the way things have worked for thousands of years.

Thanks for posting and sharing your experience. The argument I'm making is that monogamy is best suited for an agrarian economy. So yes, it's been like that for a long time because most of us have been farmers for four to ten thousand years, until the past two centuries. I know you believe this point is self-evident, but can you explain what harm polyamory would have on raising children? It seems to me that would cause for there to be more dads, not less in a kid's life. I think polyamory causes groups to care for each other more. I have seen this personally, but again, each experience is different, and I've never yet lived it.

That being said. I've been cheated on. And I know what that is like. And later I became the opposite and seduced married women, and I know how easy that is and how crappy I felt about it.

Me too, I've been cheated on. It sucked at the time. In retrospect, it was fine. If she liked another guy too, I think that's great. It didn't mean I had to break up with her like I did. But that took a major shift in thinking that came much later. But now, girls cannot cheat on me because I openly ask them to please sleep with other people.

At the end of the day, you have to look in the mirror and decide how you feel about what you are doing. If you are happy with what you've done then go for it. Just be prepared for the consequences because everyone is not going to think like you and someone will blow your freaking head off. Come back to the real world gents. Mental masterbation will get you fvcked up out here in real life.

Very wise words. Actually, you don't need to know that you're cheating with a girl to get into a dangerous situation. What you've named above is a danger of dating in general. I'm sure lots of guys here have dated a girl they thought was single, and found out the girl forgot to tell you she has a bf. Turn bf into a jealous violent bf and you've got yourself a dangerous situation without you knowing anything about it.

Still, sleeping with a girl who has an exclusive contract compounds the risk.

Also, your criteria for looking in the mirror to see if it's wrong or right for you seems to me very wise. I will keep that in mind, thank you.

Izza

 

[izza]

This concept of cheating is relative also. People all have different views on it, and they view different things are wrong, so i say that cheating is never ethical. If you think that extra marital sex is cheating, and someone else does not, then to that person it is not cheating

I many cultures across the world, such as the Bari in south america, extra Marital sex is excepted as part of tradition. They hold the idea that children survive if they have multiple fathers. So after the husband implants his seed in the mother, she goes and chooses other fathers to "wash the child with sperm" in order to insure it's survival. These men are friends of the family and are also responsible for the child, even if they have their own children.

Is this always practiced? no way. some Bari woman don't do it, while some Bari men are not ok with the idea, but it just has to do with their separate views also. Even though it is very much a part of their tradition, some do not agree with it, Just like the whole women are sluts if they sleep around thing

I stress the point again that we as westerners are obsessed with sex, as in we get too hung up on the sexual aspect of things. such as the example with the bari i gave, it is NOT about the sex. Not at all, It's about the survival of the child.

Also, with cheating. Most cheat has nothing to do with sex, but with insecurities and getting something that you are missing in a relationship.

Cheating is breaking a vow to stay commited to a person. If a person can not keep their word, then why commit in the first place? So thus it is not ethical if you do something that you essentially promise that you will not. No matter what you view as cheating, doing it is always dishonest and wrong, and thus not ethical

Very interesting examples with the Bari. Where did you come across this information? Also, thanks for the kind words and sharing your own views on this. I think a good discussion on this issue would be helpful for everyone, but at least me, so I appreciate your willingness to discuss this issue. Should be fun.

You asked what relation the gun-to-head analogy has to women using an exclusive relationship to shield against the slut label. Is that a fair summary of your reaction? Let's be clear about this: men do not have this problem. The man-slut label isn't powerful, it doesn't affect the male psyche very much. If a man says he's going to be exclusive, that is a contract that is not made under duress.

I have exposed a number of men and women to the reasoning in this post. Most of the men said "yeah but it's a contract, she didn't have to choose it." Again, most men are ignorant about the horrible stigma that comes with being labeled a slut. I've showed this to women and they said "oh my god, that's so true, I don't feel I have a real choice." Women understand and have had to live with an awful and false choice for a long time. And nobody has ever told them that they do have a real choice. Most just think there's something wrong with them if they're with a great guy and they also like someone else.

Another thing: I don't think this reasoning above applies to all women. Some women they choose and do what they want. For such a woman, who lives and thinks freely, the agreement to be exclusive is sacred because the woman feels she has a real choice. She is making a decision based on her real options, for the right reasons. She knows that the gun to her head isn't loaded. But this kind of woman will be much more likely to be honest with the guy she's with, and mature and honorable when he's not around.

I could've been clearer about this originally but I hadn't realized the importance of this distinction. I'm talking about women (and a few men) who are afraid of being labeled a slut. Some of these women therefore decide that having sex is better than being alone, so they get into a relationship. And once another opportunity comes along, they cheat, because that is the only way to get what they really want (sex with whoever) and be approved by society so long as they don't get caught.

Please take a minute to watch these videos - it is what caused me to notice this.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-423615301127215287&hl=en

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2967811999730951582&q=source:004488235041809468551&hl=en

I'm not trying to argue against what you're saying, but present some ideas that I'm curious to hear you discuss and weigh.

Best,
Izza

 

[Warrior74]

Thanks for posting and sharing your experience. The argument I'm making is that monogamy is best suited for an agrarian economy. So yes, it's been like that for a long time because most of us have been farmers for four to ten thousand years, until the past two centuries. I know you believe this point is self-evident, but can you explain what harm polyamory would have on raising children? It seems to me that would cause for there to be more dads, not less in a kid's life. I think polyamory causes groups to care for each other more. I have seen this personally, but again, each experience is different, and I've never yet lived it.Izza

The world is what it is. The culture of the western world, and even most of the world will not change overnight. Even at the heights of the western world cultures (rome, etc) the dynamic of thought on male female marriage relationships does not change. I can see it in a small tribe or group, but not for a large society. Not to mention the religious pressures that still hold sway over billions. Plus I think it's just the way people are made. We pair up, not group up. Now if we pair up for a long or short time...that's optional, but the best working way for humans on earth is pairs. It's goes back to basic human nature.

But when you see nothing wrong with going after married women and actively offering them the chance to cheat, you do destroy families. Your actions have consequences. You can never go backwards in relationships..and by the time a woman has cheated, its going to affect her life, her husbands life, and her kids life. Even in tiny little ways if she stays with him and in huge ways if she leaves him. Now if you see the wedding ring and back off, maybe someone else will do what you didn't, who knows. But maybe you were the only one she would have cheated with. I don't know. But understand, there will be consequences. I grew up in a two parent home, so I know what that is like. And I'm watching my daughter not have that, mainly because of cheating, so I know what that is like as well. Her stepdad is no replacement for her real dad. SHe knows this. Everyone knows this deep inside. No group of people will ever replace your actual parents (especially if you are partially raised by them). It's human nature.

Very wise words. Actually, you don't need to know that you're cheating with a girl to get into a dangerous situation. What you've named above is a danger of dating in general. I'm sure lots of guys here have dated a girl they thought was single, and found out the girl forgot to tell you she has a bf. Turn bf into a jealous violent bf and you've got yourself a dangerous situation without you knowing anything about it.

Izza

I've been there before too. Had to run for my life a couple of times when they didn't tell me they were married or had a boyfriend. It happens. Charge that one to the game.

I disdain threads like this mainly because of the never ending sea of noobies here who will often times take threads like these the wrong way, and with out the experience of women/life will find themselves in some bad situations. It's alot of noobs and lurkers here who really aren't ready for this level of conversation, but by presenting it, it could further skew their outlook. This is why I generally come down on the side of reality in these theoretical discussion threads. I don't think it benifits the noobs much. Basically its big boy talk they aren't ready for. And I would hate for someone like Elstud to go get his head blown off over some theoritical wankfest thread he read on sosuave. He's stupid enough to do it you know.

 

[Vypros]

The one little fact that completely destroys your whole arguement is the fact that women are not the ones who feel trapped in a marriage. It's the men.

Marriage is more designed in the interest of protecting the woman. Think about it. What logical benefit does a man get from marriage aside from companionship? What benefit does a woman get from marriage? Companionship, protection, provision, comfort, etc. The list of benefits go on and on for women. The list of benefits for a man? What does he get if the marriage fails?

Look it it this way. Who has the children? Who can walk away at a moment's notice? So, answering those questions, who would benefit MORE from a monagamous relationship?

So you aren't "freeing her" from anything. You are actually taking away her protection and all those benefits she gets from marriage.

And in the process you are screwing over your fellow man, AFC or not.

 

[horaholic]

Izza,

Do you think there is a possiblilty that the reason you're so ok with this concept now is because you were cheated on, and it hurt so bad, you have trained yourself to believe it is ok, to ease your own pain? It seems you may be turning lemons (cheating) into lemonade (accepting that it happens). Ask yourself this: is it maybe a defense mechanism, or a cop out?

This whole 'freedom' concept has missed a very crucial point; which is the MEN involved are expected to be faithful as well. You guys are acting as if its SO UNFAIR that the women cant go sleep around in the marriage. Well, the MAN isnt supposed to either. Marriage, or a relationship is not a 'trade of goods and services.' It is a partnership, and bond between two people who love each other so much, that they can refrain from sleeping around. I dont expect anything from my SO, that I dont freely give in return.

Personally, Im torn with the concept. On one hand, I am totally monogamous, and believe a relationship/marriage to be WAY more than a sexual exchange. On the other hand, with society the way it is, I almost expect to be cheated on, and part of me wishes I could just be ok with it , and not be jealous and possessive. The other half of me, however, knows that this would be compromising my own ethics, and that it would be WRONG. I refuse to 'cop out' like that and be a pvssy.

A real relationship or marriage shouldnt be viewed as 'giving up your freedom cuz society says I should be married." It should be viewed as gaining a life partner, and the whole is greater than the sum of the parts, or however that saying goes. I feel sorry for anyone who cannot truly enjoy and appreciate what a real relationship is supposed to be. Sleeping around is nothing in comparison to sleeping with someone you have a bond like that with.

Granted, it may be next to impossible to find that relationship, but I'll be damned if I will give up like a pvssy and settle for less. Up until the last fifty years or so, marriages seemed to work, for the most part. I look at all my sets of Grandparents. They are the happiest people I have ever seen. They never needed to sleep around. They didnt get married cuz of 'societies rules.' They got married cuz they wanted a partner in life, and someone to grow old with, and they have never regretted a minute of it. Why is it too much to ask these days for the same thing? Womens emancipation, thats why.

People refuse to accept their roles. Men have always been dogs, and women have always been hors. Nowadays however, women are embracing their hor side instead of keeping it under control. And the same goes with guys. America is so complacent, is disgusting. We keep pushing the boundaries of morality further and further, and the results are divorces, general unhappiness, greed, gluttony, disease, demand for freedom without any concept of responsibility, kids thinking its cool to be a gangsta. If we take a step back and look, its mindblowingly ridiculous.

Im not very religious, but it makes me realize, that they are called the 7 DEADLY sins for a reason. For example, I know there's nothing wrong with sex, but I also know the consequences of uncontrolled lust; Rape, disease, violence, emotional trauma, infidelity, child molestation, unwanted pregnancy, divorce, death, etc. These 'sins' are nothing but little monsters inside us, that grow larger and more dangerous as we feed them. Only now, instead of trying to keep them under control, we are accepting that they are a part of us, and letting them run wild, destroying everything in their path. The worst part is, we dont even accept that the damage done is a result of this. Its like playing with fire, and being totally clueless as to how our house burnt down.

Anyway, I hope you can relate all this to the original subject. I kind of went a little wild in my writing. sorry.

 

[DonGorgon]

psycho babble mumbo jumbo.. think what you want cheating will happen wether we decide it is ethical or not... its human nature to cheat... and in reality being monogamous would be cheating your human nature.

 

[DonGorgon]

I wonder how many of you idiots in this thread have children. .

I have no children ..

1. they cost too much
2. no women i meet are capable of being good enough mothers
3. the world is to F'ed up
4. i dont have the energy to deal with any more stress

 

[Skydiver43127]

Cheating is breaking a vow to stay commited to a person. If a person can not keep their word, then why commit in the first place? So thus it is not ethical if you do something that you essentially promise that you will not. No matter what you view as cheating, doing it is always dishonest and wrong, and thus not ethical

That is actually the only valid argument I have against cheating. But experience weakens it.

Yes, if you enter a commited relationship it means you give your word. But how exactly do you do that? Most girls just assume that since you are seeing them regularly you are in such a relationship. Most men do so too. But assuming is not the same as gaining agreement (Watch the english comedy serial Coupling, episode 1, you'll see what I'm talking about)

Now, in such a situation which is more moral? To confront the girl on the issue and say "look, it's not that I don't like you, but you're just not enough for me for the blabla reason" and thus hurt her self-esteem even if you have a sound reason to want this that has nothing to do with her. Or to cheat and become the bad guy, thus taking all the negatives on the situation upon yourself? One might argue the second path has some moral value in it.