Why Getting Good with Women is so Important

[jhonny9546]

They are afraid of losing what they have, along with the uncertainty of when/if they will be able to find someone new

It's not just about seduction: it's a fear we have throughout our lives.

But I also have to say that the strongest marriages I've ever seen are those of couples who got together in high school and have stayed together ever since. It felt like they had formed a family relationship that was stronger than just a romantic bond. Kind of like a best friend for life. With benefits.

This is a complete generalization, but are we talking about tumultuous couples, so with frequent arguments and passive-aggressive attitudes, or more human, calm and respectful couples?

Because anyway, I know a lot of couples who are still together since high school, but the "how" is incredibly different.

wondering about him

I'm usually very focused on my goals, and the girls who come into my orbit (the ones who are attracted) are always the ones to make the first move. Then I start talking to them and show no interest at all.
Then it’s like you said... they’ll think about you, and they’ll want you.
At that point, they start doing things towards me, and that’s when I realize I can start being more direct and invite her: this is 100% interest level.

I’ve had women stay in my social circle for more than 3 or even 5 years, waiting for me to be single because they liked me so much, and they never want to told me for some reason.
One of them was, and still is, in love with me, since childhood, but I’m sorry, she’s just not my type.


But it’s not manipulation. This is just something I do naturally, and women are very attracted to this sort of “I don’t need you, but I saw that you like me, so let’s spend some time together.”
The trick, though, is to be careful not to fall too deep into her web and end up falling too much for herotherwise, it’s game over.

 

[Sega Genesis]

I'm usually very focused on my goals, and the girls who come into my orbit (the ones who are attracted) are always the ones to make the first move. Then I start talking to them and show no interest at all.
Then it’s like you said... they’ll think about you, and they’ll want you.
At that point, they start doing things towards me, and that’s when I realize I can start being more direct and invite her: this is 100% interest level.

I’ve had women stay in my social circle for more than 3 or even 5 years, waiting for me to be single because they liked me so much, and they never want to told me for some reason.
One of them was, and still is, in love with me, since childhood, but I’m sorry, she’s just not my type.


But it’s not manipulation. This is just something I do naturally, and women are very attracted to this sort of “I don’t need you, but I saw that you like me, so let’s spend some time together.”
The trick, though, is to be careful not to fall too deep into her web and end up falling too much for herotherwise, it’s game over.

^^Yeah sadly (imo) the roles have slowly shifted.

Women (some not all obviously) have assumed the masculine role of pursuing/chasing and men have assumed the feminine role of passively being chased.

Not sure why the shift, perhaps it's the lack of a strong father figure or male role model due to divorce or more women choosing to become single moms.

I don't really know but it's become super confusing imo.

I'm not into labels but thankfully I found a man who is the right combo of alpha (masculine) and beta and complements my feminine beautifully!

He knows how to balance pursuing his goals and being the leader in our relationship.

He's Italian too BTW.

But whatever works for you @jhonny9546 .

 

[zekko]

This is a complete generalization, but are we talking about tumultuous couples, so with frequent arguments and passive-aggressive attitudes, or more human, calm and respectful couples?

The latter. But who knows how things are behind closed doors?

 

[BPH]

There's a lot I want to reply to here, but in the interest of not making this a giant text wall (which it may still end up being), I'll just tag @BeExcellent @Dr_jitsu and @Sega Genesis

It looks like the main takeaway here is that I should have let the interaction end after getting her number and banked on seeing her again some other time.

In my experience, this rarely works out; just recently, there was a girl I was hitting it off with in West Chester - we were making out, I got her number, and she only couldn't invite me over because she was staying with her friend who lives with her parents. So we made plans for Sunday...which got pushed back to the next week...which got pushed back another week...which ended in her just ghosting me.

So yeah, the combination of drunkenness and impatience probably didn't help, but I was operating from the assumption that there was a good chance I wouldn't see her again after this. Did her friend rag on me? Probably, but she blocked me so fast that it was her own decision, so if she changed her mind about me at whatever point in the night, I don't know why she spent so much time with me.

Anyway, let's talk about last night, because this age thing is a real b****...

Went to the same spot and did NOT see the girl from the night before, but I DID see the friend, and she definitely saw me.

It's unfortunate that the best spot in terms of attractive women near me is a college bar...this place beats Trolley, it beats Philly (sometimes), it beats West Chester, and it beats my local bars. What's nice is that a lot of the same staff are there so I do still get the perks of skipping the lines and having most of my drinks free - I tried to pay the guy and held out my money, and he just refused to take it. Some girls saw and said that I must have connections, so the social proof aspect is kinda nice.

Anyway, @BeExcellent said age wouldn't be an issue for her, so let me describe how this interaction went: I went up to this girl and her roommate and introduced myself and told her I thought she was really cute. The conversation goes the same way every time: "Do you go here? No, where do you go? Oh, you're graduated, why are you here?" Every...single...time...

I had some good responses, told her that most women my age are single mothers and that that's not really my thing. Had a short chat, got her number, then continued on with my night.

She ends up texting me at 2 AM, a full hour after closing. Now I think that maybe this is going to turn into a late-night booty call, so we go back and forth flirting for like the next 2 hours. During that time, she must've brought up my age at least 3 separate times - wondering why I'm interested in her, saying her cutoff is usually 24, asking why I'm not going to bars where there are girls my age, etc. She mentions wanting to be taken out on a date, so we make tentative plans for the next night. But here's where I lose her...

The fact that she has a cutoff of 24 years old (and knows I'm 30) leads her to ask me what MY cutoff is.

Now...I probably could've lied, or I could've gone to bed after creating the plan, but this is something that's been on her mind multiple times throughout just this one conversation regarding age, so I answer honestly. I tell her that as long as everybody's legal and consenting, that age isn't a dealbreaker for me.

This completely turns her off; she says, "so basically you'd be into high schoolers" and "is there really much of a difference between 17 and 18". I reframe it and ask her whether if she met her dream guy, but he was 18, would that be a dealbreaker, to which she replies "yes". Now she no longer wants anything to do with me, so I tell her I'm going to bed and that I'd lose her number.

I'm sure there are plenty of girls who don't mind older guys, but then it must be the stigma surrounding why an older guy would be hanging around with younger women, as if it's predatory or that there must be something wrong that I'm not with a woman my own age. I don't know, this age gap just continues to be a real b*** sometimes. I'll tag @Oatmeal31 and @nicksaiz65 since I post a lot of advice and wins, but I still take my fair share of L's, so you know how normal failure is, even for somebody who does this a lot.

To answer @Sega Genesis question about why the masculine and feminine dynamics have shifted, my theory is twofold.

First, hypergamy. OnlyFans, Instagram, etc. I remember a 2023 statistic being posted that the collective earnings of OnlyFans creators was $6.6 billion compared to the combined salaries of all NBA players being $4.9 billion. The sexual marketplace is globalized, so if you're a hot woman, or even slightly above average, it is very easy for you to be a millionaire. My ex only had a few thousand followers on Instagram, and she would routinely get money thrown at her, gifts, offers to fly her out, etc. She tried to show me a feature on a dating app where you could leave a note if it wasn't a match - could not show me; literally every right swipe is a match. If you're a hot enough woman, you don't have to want for anything, so a lot of those women will have the mindset of wondering why they would want men who cannot provide for them because they can get anything they want by themselves. So their man becomes their toy, who they eventually resent, and when they meet a man "above them", they are not feminine and submissive because they've never had the opportunity to be - and that man doesn't want them because they're difficult.

Second, MeToo. You both got drunk and had sex, but she later regrets it? Toss out a r*pe allegation and ruin the man's life. You're an extremely successful and beloved movie star? Have Amber Heard call you an abuser and immediately lose your livelihood and public support - even when you're found innocent. Literally exist in the same camera frame as some girl recording herself at the gym and be labeled a creep by the general public for staring at her while she works out - even if you're blind, in one case. There are so many ways that I, as a man, can get in serious legal trouble at so many points along the journey from the time I meet the woman until the time I bed her, and even afterwards. I can understand a lot of men finding the risk not being worth the reward, opting to get absolute confirmation and consent from the woman before doing the very things she makes fun of men for not having the balls to do.

Sorry it took so long to respond to everybody. It's been busy, but I wanted to sit down and give a thought-out reply to all the advice I've been given on this thread, and I didn't want to type up something rushed.

 

[BadBoy89]

On the way over, I ask if she's into older guys; I'm 30, and I saw that she's only 22.

Bro I don’t have numbers you do but why would you do that. She was with you throughout and didn’t say anything, why would open that door.

No idea where I went wrong here; SHE wanted to be introduced to ME, and when I tried to give her what she wanted, she refused.

I’m surprised you are thinking like this with your experience,

Women change their minds at the drop of a hat, Just because she liked the what she saw initially, doesn’t mean she will buy it, It’s up to you to get her mind, her heart, her body and make the sale,

And don’t give women what they want. Give them what they need,

 

[BeExcellent]

This thread is actually a really great discussion.

So here is my question. Did the gorgeous blonde's friend acknowledge you? Yes or no? If she did & was cool then things are good. If not, things are a bit off.

As to the other girl who busted your chops about age? Ok first of all WHY are you responding to women at 2am????? Let the girl wonder where you are/what you are doing/who you are with for God's sake. Why are you having a conversation at 2:30am that is going nowhere? You are annihilating any interest, mystery or intrigue because you are as available and eager as a 3 month old puppy. She wondered where you are. She texted. Do NOT respond. Isn't your time valuable? Aren't you a man doing man stuff or sleeping like normal person?

When you answer you are WAY too available and it removes any questions....nah you are sitting home waiting to respond to 2am texts. Seriously? Ok. Not what high value people do.

Have some self respect man.

The age thing is silly in my book. But people are asking you the age question because they are at a "college bar." Do you have to show your college ID to be admitted? No? Then its not a college bar. Its a bar. Its open to the public.

But had you ignored the girl's text at 2am, none of this exchange happens. You are blowing yourself out by being too eager.

The gorgeous blonde you tried to escalate too fast; last night's girl you were too available. Soon enough you WILL have a reputation at this bar among the cute girls, but it will not be a good one.

Be mysterious. Be aloof. Be difficult to obtain. You have some looks going for you, but you act desperate which is a turn off.

Quit thinking you gotta get the kiss, the date, etc. before you leave.

An anectdotal analogy: A young bull and an old bull were looking over the herd of cows they saw down the hill. The young bull felt the testosterone surging through him and said to the old bull, "Man! Let's run down there and fvck a cow!!!" The old bull did not react. Just chewed his curd, flipped his tail and said "No son. Let's walk down there and fvck them all."

Right now @BPH you are the young bull.

 

[Chow Mein]

I don't think that's always true. Speaking personally I might be quite sexually interested and attracted however I still want to be courted as described in my previous and as @BeExcellent explained too.

I am no prude far from! But before I sexually engage or give up sexual favors, I need to know he's not just after my p*ssy!

I do realize there are many women who will "give it up" without needing to be courted and assured a man wants to get to know her besides her p*ssy, and as such perhaps men have been conditioned to believing all women are this way.

But they're not in fact more and more women are raising their standards and rejecting overly thirsty impatient men straight away.

I DO think in @BPH situation, she may have been quite sexually attracted which is why she came to him initially.

But somewhere along the way she became turned off and it's possible it's because he was impatient (as he admitted) as she was leaving and he pushed the sexual too soon.

I'm not psychic but it is possible

I should clarify,
We are agreeing on the same topic, women will be attracted to the men that gives them the chase.

Where we digress,
If a man has options, does he care about the chase…or just go to point Z?

 

[Chow Mein]

This thread is actually a really great discussion.

So here is my question. Did the gorgeous blonde's friend acknowledge you? Yes or no? If she did & was cool then things are good. If not, things are a bit off.

As to the other girl who busted your chops about age? Ok first of all WHY are you responding to women at 2am????? Let the girl wonder where you are/what you are doing/who you are with for God's sake. Why are you having a conversation at 2:30am that is going nowhere? You are annihilating any interest, mystery or intrigue because you are as available and eager as a 3 month old puppy. She wondered where you are. She texted. Do NOT respond. Isn't your time valuable? Aren't you a man doing man stuff or sleeping like normal person?

When you answer you are WAY too available and it removes any questions....nah you are sitting home waiting to respond to 2am texts. Seriously? Ok. Not what high value people do.

Have some self respect man.

The age thing is silly in my book. But people are asking you the age question because they are at a "college bar." Do you have to show your college ID to be admitted? No? Then its not a college bar. Its a bar. Its open to the public.

But had you ignored the girl's text at 2am, none of this exchange happens. You are blowing yourself out by being too eager.

The gorgeous blonde you tried to escalate too fast; last night's girl you were too available. Soon enough you WILL have a reputation at this bar among the cute girls, but it will not be a good one.

Be mysterious. Be aloof. Be difficult to obtain. You have some looks going for you, but you act desperate which is a turn off.

Quit thinking you gotta get the kiss, the date, etc. before you leave.

An anectdotal analogy: A young bull and an old bull were looking over the herd of cows they saw down the hill. The young bull felt the testosterone surging through him and said to the old bull, "Man! Let's run down there and fvck a cow!!!" The old bull did not react. Just chewed his curd, flipped his tail and said "No son. Let's walk down there and fvck them all."

Right now @BPH you are the young bull.

Young bulls are the easiest to rattle
Welcome to the forum

 

[pipeman84]

She ends up texting me at 2 AM, a full hour after closing. Now I think that maybe this is going to turn into a late-night booty call, so we go back and forth flirting for like the next 2 hours.

So you're texting for 2 hours, starting at 2 AM? And a significant part of that was you justifying why you're interested in younger women?
That's like textbook example of NOT being good with women.
Upon receiving that 2 AM text, you should've just texted back something like: it's late, I'm going to bed, what's your schedule like so we can set up a date. Or better yet, ignored it and answered in the morning.

 

[SW15]

It looks like the main takeaway here is that I should have let the interaction end after getting her number and banked on seeing her again some other time.

It's very difficult to predict the likelihood of seeing a woman again in the early stages of an interaction.

I don't get phone numbers without a future date plan in place.

Banking on seeing someone again off of a late night interaction at a nightlife venue or off of a swipe app arranged first date is not a good strategy. The flake rates off of those interactions is very high.

Flake rates off of a daygame stranger approach are also high but somewhat dependent on the interaction itself. A longer, deeper conversation will reduce flake rates off of daygame.

receiving that 2 AM text...ignored it and answered in the morning.

There's no reason to answer a 2 AM that isn't about setting sex logistics. Every other text can wait until a more reasonable hour. Even with waiting, there's still a good chance of a flake.

 

[BPH]

Bro I don’t have numbers you do but why would you do that. She was with you throughout and didn’t say anything, why would open that door.



I’m surprised you are thinking like this with your experience,

Women change their minds at the drop of a hat, Just because she liked the what she saw initially, doesn’t mean she will buy it, It’s up to you to get her mind, her heart, her body and make the sale,

And don’t give women what they want. Give them what they need,

Prior to this, I hadn't been to this college bar in a long time - like a few years. I'm not used to this dynamic of high interest on the front-end followed by very high resistance on the back-end.

It didn't make sense to me that she was so interested that she had to be introduced to me but then wasn't interested in escalating...but was still interested enough to invite me along and continue the night...but still not interested enough to escalate. So I'm wondering why she's doing things like spending more time with me, nestling into me, holding my hand, etc if she's not that interested.

I think I dropped the age question because at that point in the night, I was trying to figure out if that was the hold-up. Not smart, but at this point, I was also quite drunk.

This thread is actually a really great discussion.

So here is my question. Did the gorgeous blonde's friend acknowledge you? Yes or no? If she did & was cool then things are good. If not, things are a bit off.

As to the other girl who busted your chops about age? Ok first of all WHY are you responding to women at 2am????? Let the girl wonder where you are/what you are doing/who you are with for God's sake. Why are you having a conversation at 2:30am that is going nowhere? You are annihilating any interest, mystery or intrigue because you are as available and eager as a 3 month old puppy. She wondered where you are. She texted. Do NOT respond. Isn't your time valuable? Aren't you a man doing man stuff or sleeping like normal person?

When you answer you are WAY too available and it removes any questions....nah you are sitting home waiting to respond to 2am texts. Seriously? Ok. Not what high value people do.

Have some self respect man.

The age thing is silly in my book. But people are asking you the age question because they are at a "college bar." Do you have to show your college ID to be admitted? No? Then its not a college bar. Its a bar. Its open to the public.

But had you ignored the girl's text at 2am, none of this exchange happens. You are blowing yourself out by being too eager.

The gorgeous blonde you tried to escalate too fast; last night's girl you were too available. Soon enough you WILL have a reputation at this bar among the cute girls, but it will not be a good one.

Be mysterious. Be aloof. Be difficult to obtain. You have some looks going for you, but you act desperate which is a turn off.

Quit thinking you gotta get the kiss, the date, etc. before you leave.

An anectdotal analogy: A young bull and an old bull were looking over the herd of cows they saw down the hill. The young bull felt the testosterone surging through him and said to the old bull, "Man! Let's run down there and fvck a cow!!!" The old bull did not react. Just chewed his curd, flipped his tail and said "No son. Let's walk down there and fvck them all."

Right now @BPH you are the young bull.

The blonde's friend gave me a few looks, as if she was trying to see if it was really me, but nothing like happy or excited to see me or anything. I'm not worried about that. That girl blocked me almost as soon as I got out of their car. I'm not expecting that to go anywhere.

As for this other girl, I thought things were going to turn into a booty call. It's 2 AM, she probably got back from the bar 30ish minutes ago, and she's likely in bed with a bit of a buzz, thinking about me. I've had those turn into something before.

Even if I didn't respond then, I'm sure the age issue would've come up again, whether the next day via text, on our date, or some other time. The fact that it came up when I introduced myself to her, along with several times during the text conversation, means that I might delay it but not avoid it. And I probably could've lied and just said "21 is my youngest", but I don't care to lie. There are several posters on this forum who suggested I simply lie about my age when asked. I have chosen not to follow that advice.

I think the age thing is stupid too, but this is part of the reason I stopped going to this bar and why I think I'm having issues now that I've returned. What's weird is that I'll sometimes go to another college bar in West Chester, like I did last night, and most of these girls don't even ask if I go to the school or how old I am - got 2 numbers and a tentative date on Thursday last night, neither one asked.

Unfortunately, this other spot is the best I have unless my buddy in Philly invites us up to stay overnight. There are certainly quite a few good-looking girls, but the age thing is clearly an issue. I'm not too concerned about a reputation at this bar because in another month or two, 90% of the people going to it will have graduated.

So you're texting for 2 hours, starting at 2 AM? And a significant part of that was you justifying why you're interested in younger women?
That's like textbook example of NOT being good with women.
Upon receiving that 2 AM text, you should've just texted back something like: it's late, I'm going to bed, what's your schedule like so we can set up a date. Or better yet, ignored it and answered in the morning.

There's no reason to answer a 2 AM that isn't about setting sex logistics. Every other text can wait until a more reasonable hour. Even with waiting, there's still a good chance of a flake.

I thought it was going to turn into a booty call ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Chow Mein]

Prior to this, I hadn't been to this college bar in a long time - like a few years. I'm not used to this dynamic of high interest on the front-end followed by very high resistance on the back-end.

It didn't make sense to me that she was so interested that she had to be introduced to me but then wasn't interested in escalating...but was still interested enough to invite me along and continue the night...but still not interested enough to escalate. So I'm wondering why she's doing things like spending more time with me, nestling into me, holding my hand, etc if she's not that interested.

I think I dropped the age question because at that point in the night, I was trying to figure out if that was the hold-up. Not smart, but at this point, I was also quite drunk.



The blonde's friend gave me a few looks, as if she was trying to see if it was really me, but nothing like happy or excited to see me or anything. I'm not worried about that. That girl blocked me almost as soon as I got out of their car. I'm not expecting that to go anywhere.

As for this other girl, I thought things were going to turn into a booty call. It's 2 AM, she probably got back from the bar 30ish minutes ago, and she's likely in bed with a bit of a buzz, thinking about me. I've had those turn into something before.

Even if I didn't respond then, I'm sure the age issue would've come up again, whether the next day via text, on our date, or some other time. The fact that it came up when I introduced myself to her, along with several times during the text conversation, means that I might delay it but not avoid it. And I probably could've lied and just said "21 is my youngest", but I don't care to lie. There are several posters on this forum who suggested I simply lie about my age when asked. I have chosen not to follow that advice.

I think the age thing is stupid too, but this is part of the reason I stopped going to this bar and why I think I'm having issues now that I've returned. What's weird is that I'll sometimes go to another college bar in West Chester, like I did last night, and most of these girls don't even ask if I go to the school or how old I am - got 2 numbers and a tentative date on Thursday last night, neither one asked.

Unfortunately, this other spot is the best I have unless my buddy in Philly invites us up to stay overnight. There are certainly quite a few good-looking girls, but the age thing is clearly an issue. I'm not too concerned about a reputation at this bar because in another month or two, 90% of the people going to it will have graduated.




I thought it was going to turn into a booty call ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

She got enough validation from you. Seduce the fvck boy enough for him to post here. Players play, sometimes they lose.

 

[BPH]

She got enough validation from you. Seduce the fvck boy enough for him to post here. Players play, sometimes they lose.

I think it's important to post losses.

Just because I have a high notch count and get laid a lot doesn't mean I don't also fail a lot. I'd been reading a lot of posts of young guys getting frustrated with failure while trying to overcome approach anxiety or learning to cold approach.

I think putting into perspective that you will likely fail way more than you'll succeed and that failure is normal would benefit some guys. If you're not failing, you're probably not aiming high enough.

Nobody goes to the gym and gets jacked by working out with the lightest weights - they do it by finding their limits and working to push past them.

 

[nicksaiz65]

Don't count your chickens before they hatch; numbers don't matter because they might not answer. Dates don't matter because they might not show. Kisses don't matter because they might not be interested sexually. Nothing REALLY matters until she's in bed with you, cuddled up, post-coitus. Don't get excited prematurely, but do understand that this is part of the game we play.

Agreed. These girls at night put you through so much BS and make you jump through so many hoops.. like you said, can’t take anything at face value until you get the lay.

I think you could argue that you get more BS at night than during the daytime.

 

[nicksaiz65]

I think it's important to post losses.

Just because I have a high notch count and get laid a lot doesn't mean I don't also fail a lot. I'd been reading a lot of posts of young guys getting frustrated with failure while trying to overcome approach anxiety or learning to cold approach.

I think putting into perspective that you will likely fail way more than you'll succeed and that failure is normal would benefit some guys. If you're not failing, you're probably not aiming high enough.

Nobody goes to the gym and gets jacked by working out with the lightest weights - they do it by finding their limits and working to push past them.

I appreciate that you’re realistic and post the failures too. Especially since most of cold approach is getting rejected: until you find one that hooks. The rejections are inevitable, no matter who you are.