Why do guys put up with it?

[STR8UP]

Originally posted by WestCoaster
I still don't see how insulting the primary buyer -- men -- for trucks adds sales. They don't teach that in business school, or any school for that matter.

But just like you said......men are numb to it. Most are more likely to laugh it off than become insulted.

 

[WestCoaster]

Couple things

Last year my friend bought a Porsche. Told his wife he was just going to do it. Of course she loaded tons of guilt on him and continued to flip him crap (never mind that he makes close to six figures, puts the house over their head and everything else) ... he just went out and bought it. He loves it, she's jealous of it or something. I think she wouldn't have been happy whether he would've bought a beater or a Porsche. Women often have to complain about something. He controls the finances in the house and calls the shots. He should: She mades not very much, he makes a good wage.

Also, great episode of The Simpsons. Homer wants to buy a Winnebago but is skeptical because he has to run it by Marge. Lenny and Carl give him crap saying Marge wears the pants in the family. When Homer goes to buy it, he tells the salesman he has to tell his wife about it. The salesman starts pretenting he's cracking a whip and making a whip sound. Homer said, "Why are you doing that?!" The salesman keeps up the whipping motion and sound, Homer replies: "I'll take it!"

* Let's see, back to the original post: The AFC at the library shouldn't have put up with the crap!

 

[RedPill]

Parents who are AFCs have children who are AFCs

About once a week, a new thread appears here where we discuss the pussification of society. All good stuff. This thread is particularly good. I've had a bit of a rant building for awhile now and this is the right thread for it.

My story goes a little something like most guys around here... Back in the day I was the biggest AFC around. Over the span of a few years, of course, I've fixed all my major inner game issues, insecurities, etc. Totally in control of my reality now. I'm building a new business and life is good.

Looking back, it's easy to understand how I came to be so chumpish - look to mom & dad. Don't get me wrong, they're family I love 'em, but man did they program some poor ways of thinking into my brain. They're definitely not what you'd consider un-successful people, nor are they wealthy. But observing their lifestyle, it makes me cringe watching how they completely follow the expectations that society has for them.

Now here's what is really, REALLY getting under my skin lately. Maybe a few of you who have some years on me have gone through this. The more I build the life I want for myself, which includes acting as a capitalist and not a employee, not caving to societal expectations, and CERTAINLY not attaching myself to a woman who isn't a wise investment, the more difficulty I am having getting along with my parents and family.

Amongst the females in my family, the grand-babies agenda keeps rearing its ugly head. And another thing that's starting to happen is every time I'm around my parents with a woman (usually a FB as my time doesn't permit a LTR) they treat her as if I'm going to marry her. I can think of one specific woman where that ended our casual sex arrangement because it freaked her out.

I'm concerned that the more I progress into building the lifestyle I want for myself, the more of a headache this will become. I don't want to reach the point where I'm not on speaking terms with my parents because they disagree with my non-AFC choices. Right now I keep telling mom that the next time I hear her say something along the line of "we need to find him a wife so he can give us grandkids" to someone I'm going to run in the bathroom with some rusty scissors to give myself an emergency vasectomy. I mean Jesus H.W. Christ! I'm only 25. Hell, even if I'm 45 it's still not right.

Can anyone else relate to my rant? As we sit here and discuss "the culture that worships the hole" :crackup: I'd have to imagine that a lot of you deal with similar sh1t to this because you refuse to worship the hole.

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

Men are numbed to this because of a very useful and exploited element the masculine dynamic. It's the male double standard. Feminized society very effectively conditions men to 'do anything for love' and put up with every inconsistency and contradiction their mother's, sisters, girlfriends, wives, etc. behaviors and motives. This is called feminine perogative, or in other words, a woman always reserves the right to change her mind and never be held accountable (or as accountable as a male in a similar situation) for her decisions. Men of any social value cannot enjoy this same luxury and retain respectability. It is a masculine imperative that man be resolute, confident and decisive in order to be considered "men."

Feminized society uses this dynamic to a supreme advantage in many different ways. The easiest illustration however is the subtle and overt acceptability of male bashing in popular culture. For instance a woman could wear a t-shirt stating "Men are Dogs, Keep them on a Leash." (yes, I've seen this) with little if any societal repercussions. In fact she'd probably be met with a few shared chuckles and a "you go girl", while if a man were to wear a similar shirt stating, "Women are B!tches, Keep them on a Leash" he'd be lucky not to have rocks thrown at him - not only by women, but other men as well. This is the degree of this acceptability that men will despise this sexism only in their own gender.

Why should it be then that men would make no response when blatantly confronted with this acceptable gender bashing when women are the perpetrators? This dynamic is directly attributable to this masculine double standard. Traditionally men are expected to "tough it out" and "put up or shut up." This is a very admirable characteristic in the traditional masculine - don't complain and get the job done. So while feminized society ridicules and devalues anything remotely resembling positive masculinity, it simultaneously expects a male to retain his silent, persevering qualities as a responsibility. As if this hadn't gone far enough, this schema also encourages men to join in their own bashing by throwing rocks at the men who have the ability to see this dynamic and posess the courage to point it out. For merely saying that things are less than equitable in this regard, he's punished by being termed a 'caveman-chauvinist' or a potential abuser by the women and men subscribing to this sexism.

Like good AFCs do, these men are motivated to debase their brothers in this dynamic in an effort to better identify with women to prove themselves "not like other guys." Guys in this mindset eagerly jump on any occasion to throw rocks at men with the courage to reveal this discrepancy, as even the hint of it allows for an opportunity of qualifying themselves to women. This effect is so pronounced that AFCs will do this even in relative anonymity or in the presence of an all male audience as an exercise in potential social proof should an eligible woman be told of it.

The AFC that will blindly maintain this dynamic will also subscribe to male subservience - such as the guy WESTCOASTER described in his initial post - since this model has been reinforced enough to condition him into this schema. In essence men are taught to hate being 'men", while still being expected to embody select, masculine characteristics that serve the purpose of their continued self-gender hatred.

 

[STR8UP]

Originally posted by RedPill
Now here's what is really, REALLY getting under my skin lately. Maybe a few of you who have some years on me have gone through this. The more I build the life I want for myself, which includes acting as a capitalist and not a employee, not caving to societal expectations, and CERTAINLY not attaching myself to a woman who isn't a wise investment, the more difficulty I am having getting along with my parents and family.

I wouldn't say that I am having difficulty getting along with my family, but the more I move ahead the less I see eye to eye with them. For me it's simply a compromise that I am used to because it isn't just my family that I am moving in a different direction from.

Amongst the females in my family, the grand-babies agenda keeps rearing its ugly head. And another thing that's starting to happen is every time I'm around my parents with a woman (usually a FB as my time doesn't permit a LTR) they treat her as if I'm going to marry her. I can think of one specific woman where that ended our casual sex arrangement because it freaked her out.

I get the same sh!t from my sisters, although maybe to a lesser degree. Hell, they even put my 7 yr old neice up to no good by having HER asking me and my girls when we are going to get married and whatnot.

I'm concerned that the more I progress into building the lifestyle I want for myself, the more of a headache this will become. I don't want to reach the point where I'm not on speaking terms with my parents because they disagree with my non-AFC choices. Right now I keep telling mom that the next time I hear her say something along the line of "we need to find him a wife so he can give us grandkids" to someone I'm going to run in the bathroom with some rusty scissors to give myself an emergency vasectomy. I mean Jesus H.W. Christ! I'm only 25. Hell, even if I'm 45 it's still not right.

I guess I am lucky in that my family always jokes about it but it doesn't really turn into anything serious.

If it's that much worse for you then I would recommend being firm and telling them the deal straight up. If they don't like it or can't respect your choices I don't know how to make them understand. Some people are just flat out small minded. Just make sure you don't cave in cause ultimately if you cave in and aren't happy it's all going to turn into big disfunctional mess that YOU will have to deal with moreso than anyone else. Always look out for #1.

 

[RedPill]

STR8UP:

Good words man. The way you put it, not seeing eye to eye is a better description of how it is. I'm not too concerned with how my family acts in the future, mainly because I don't really care. I think what's happening though is I'm reaching that age where society dictates that "you need to look at getting married." No need to worry about me caving into society anytime soon.

I just think it's amazing how pervasive the AFC thought pattern is. As mentioned earlier in this thread, it's assumed by the media that you behave as society expects you to, because most people do. But hey, if everyone knew how to invest, nobody would make any money investing. It works the same way with other facets of life, like relationships with women.

 

[WestCoaster]

I wonder what would've happened if the little AFC at the library would've said, "I'm outta here, you're mean, not considerate, and God, you are butt ugly!"

If he would've had the nads to walk out, what a freeing feeling that would've been for him. What a moment of empowerment -- taking ownership of one's own life.

I remember times in my life after breakups when I've stupidly gotten back together with women, then we'd break up and do the stupid song and dance again (hey, I was in my early 20's, I was stupid and the poster child for AFNess). I remember one time when ex-gf was trying to reel me in one last time and I said something to the fact that I'm done and deserved better. It was an amazing freeing feeling.

What Rollo posted is so true on the double standards. Standing up for ourselves these days is "sexist" or "machismo" or something stupid.

People have stupidly confused the good parts of masculinity with things like child/spousal abuse. If a man acts like a MAN today, oh, he must beat his wife, right? That's how far its gone.

Very said ... the library AFC has either a lifetime or at least a long time of misery ahead of him -- sadly he doesn't even know it.

 

[stevera004]

Re: Couple things

Originally posted by WestCoaster

Also, great episode of The Simpsons. Homer wants to buy a Winnebago but is skeptical because he has to run it by Marge. Lenny and Carl give him crap saying Marge wears the pants in the family. When Homer goes to buy it, he tells the salesman he has to tell his wife about it. The salesman starts pretenting he's cracking a whip and making a whip sound. Homer said, "Why are you doing that?!" The salesman keeps up the whipping motion and sound, Homer replies: "I'll take it!"

Not a Winnebago ... that was the Mr. Plow episode ... I still remember the song:

"Call Mr. Plow, that's my name! That name again is Mr. Plow."

Ahh ... great show !

Now, back to my self-imposed silence

 

[WestCoaster]

Whoops, mixed up my episodes. He did buy a Winnebago in a different episode, much to Marge's chagrin.

He coaxed the kids into living with him. When they finally decide to move into the Winnebago, they crank up "Welcome to the Jungle" and start dancing ... freaking classic!

Yeah, Mr. Plow is an epic episode.

 

[JonJack]

Originally posted by WestCoaster
What Rollo posted is so true on the double standards. Standing up for ourselves these days is "sexist" or "machismo" or something stupid.

People have stupidly confused the good parts of masculinity with things like child/spousal abuse. If a man acts like a MAN today, oh, he must beat his wife, right? That's how far its gone.

Very said ... the library AFC has either a lifetime or at least a long time of misery ahead of him -- sadly he doesn't even know it.

And it is undoubtedly the sad AFC's fault if his life turns out to be a complete mess.

Y'know, the whole double standards thing doesn't bother me. The thing with all the male-bashing is that it is popular belief. Which basically means that the general population believe in it or are influenced by it. Having the majority gives it the power. But I don't care about all that because I'm not part of that majority and I don't care about anyone that dislikes me because of it.

I can be called a sexist, a masochist, unromantic, unreliable and an unsafe bet for a LTR. So be it. I'm never going to play into the hand of others by even believing for a second that the way I am is somehow wrong or disfunctional. If it's something that has merit, I'm willing to admit my flaws. It only means that I'm willing to take action and make a change because it's meant to improve myself further.

The important thing here is not to fear being in the minority. The important thing is not to fear being alienated. Because if you do fear it, it is clear that you're not fully confident in your beliefs and you would like to be accepted by the majority. If acceptance by the majority is really that important, just play into their hands. It's much easier to do that than to be able to hold on to your unpopular beliefs without feeling lonely and isolated.

The strength of an individual lies in their will. More importantly, the will to do what everyone else fears. For the guys on these boards, it is the will to be forward and honest with girls, knowing very well that most probably you will drive that pvssy away.

For the devoted, it is the will to die for someone or something they believe in.

 

[WestCoaster]

You don't understand, it's a CULTURAL thing in the U.S. and it's getting worse every day.

I don't care if YOU haven't bought into it, neither have I and some here. But the programming of males and the young men coming up in American society is what I care about.

Believe it or not, sometimes a cause is bigger than yourself, like you said being devoted to something. But the U.S. culture is so sick that if you died to end this crap, NO ONE would care.

Try to look outside the lens of your own life. The programming by media/TV/advertising is powerful and because YOU haven't bought into it, doesn't mean it is not powerful and that young men can't be sucked into this corrupt culture.

Courts have already bought into it in case anyone has been asleep the last 30 years. In divorce procedings, men get screwed 90 percent of the time, I've got the figures to back that up.

Think outside yourself for a second. There's personal responsibility and there's also helping society. To end literacy, we need more people volunteering to read to people; to end crime, we need help of the entire community as well as our police; and to end AFCism, we need MEN to stand up not only for themselves but other MEN.

Why is this so hard for others on this self-centered/narcissistic site to see.

This is important folks, and I don't give a flying f-ck if you're a supreme DJ/Player, we need to end male bashing NOW.

 

[STR8UP]

Originally posted by WestCoaster
This is important folks, and I don't give a flying f-ck if you're a supreme DJ/Player, we need to end male bashing NOW.

I agree with much of what you say, but the idea of being a crusader for a bunch of men who don't even want to help themselves just doesn't appeal to me.

The thing is, if you work on making yourself into a well rounded, complete man, this stuff doesn't have as much of an impact on your life.

Yes, I'm as sick as you are of the prevailing attitude that men are always at fault. I caught part of an episode of Dr. Phil today where the man was basically saying how his entire goal in life was to make his woman happy, to basically WORSHIP her. The poor guy was almos in tears when Dr.Phil asked her what exactly he was doing RIGHT and she stumbled and stammered over the answer. The problem was, the way I saw it the woman was a self indulgent biotch who could never be satisfied, and Dr. Phil didn't one time put any blame on the woman for the relationship prblems.

But do you REALLY think you are going to change anything? I don't see a wave of change coming in the next decade of so. Eventually the pendulum is going to swing back the other way, but I doubt it will be anytime soon.

Keep in mind that a good way to negate the effects of all of this BS is to become rich and powerful. The game changes when you no longer have to play by the rules of the masses. Trust me, the view is a whole lot better as you make your way to the top.

 

[ElChoclo]

I concur WestCoaster. But I think it was Aristotle who claimed that men could naturally be divided into the classes of slaves and freemen.

The library chump was possibly one of the "natural slaves". We don't blame society for people being shy for example, so should we be so quick to blame it for people being AFCs. I think part of the answer is that sociopath women target men like library boy and actively seek to recruit them. They know a soft target when they see it.

There should be high volume complaints when a bad advertisement comes out.

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

One thing I don't think I adequitely covered in my last post is the degree to which this dynamic permeates western culture. I used an easy illustration with the T-Shirt message example and WESTCOASTER dropped the truck billboard example, but I think it's important to realize that this attitude goes much deeper than these easily recognizable instances.

I can't begin to tell you how many women I've worked with in different circumstance and different regions who will default to conversation ridculing anything masculine when gathered together and even with men present. It's this micro-level attitude that is a manifestation of a macro-level dynamic that makes it 'appropriate' conversation. Pop-culture essentially gives permission for such debasement. Imagine for a moment a group of 5 women and 2 men where the conversation turns to 'how dumb men are' or 'how men are responsible' for their 3 failed marriages. They all get a good laugh and the men have been socialized to not only take it on the chin, but to shrug their shoulders and 'laugh with' them.

Reverse the roles now. 5 men and 2 women are having casual conversation when the men default to 'how dumb' women are or how women were responsible for their 3 failed marriages. Now we have an entirely scenario. These guys are instant A-Holes; each more detestable than Archie Bunker and the worst 50's era husband stereotype. The women in the group aren't expected to 'take it on the chin', they're expected to fight back violently.

Yet, for my having even pointed out this dynamic I'm now equated with these 'chauvinist' men. It's another example of controling the frame and controling the terminology. The word 'chauvinist', by definition can be equally applied to either gender, but for the last 50 years the term has become synonymous with the masculine by design. There are other terms that become uniquely masculine or feminine in this control. 'Double Standard' for instance, has become a uniquely feminine burden becasue pop culture has conditioned women to own this term.

SInce Carl Jung and the sexual revolution we've seen a constant effort to encourage men to "get in touch with their feminine side" to the point that it makes men who don't subscribe to this socially devalued; and those who think they embody this, to misguidedly interpret this ego investment as some form of sexual attractant. But for all of this, how many times do we see women encouraged to "get in touch with their masculine side?" On the contrary, they're expected to exemplify the most positive aspects of both genders (true androgeny) regardless of how conflicted this is.

I had read on the 'Amoral Wasteland' thread some kid popping off about how his father had told him to "just treat women with respect" and he'd have no trouble at all with women. It made me wonder how many mother were telling their daughters to "treat men with respect" and they's have no trouble either? Far less frequently I'd guess. This kind of uniquely masculine "just be yourself" advice is the slow poison that creates AFCs. How many women have any of us met that have ever stated, much less displayed, the common respect men are expected to have for women?

I once had a girl tell me when I was about 20 y.o. that she would never date a guy like me because I "didn't respect women." At that point my 20 y.o. brain saw a lost cause and I said, "well, I've yet to meet one that deserves my respect." In my AFC haze I felt bad for saying this then, but it was the correct answer. Very few women in western culture bother to concern themselves with altering their mindset (much less their behavior) to better show respect for men. If anything the opposite is in effect.

Popular socialization has taught both genders that respect is something a woman is entitled to automatically and unearned, whereas a man must constantly prove his respectability among both genders.

 

[WestCoaster]

Great point Rollo.

The DJ's here with "I've got mine" crack me up. "I've got the keys to the kingdome that nobody has!" ... Yeah, and that kingdom smells like sh-t and spoiled fish, and it's full of trash -- hey, but you've got the keys!

Amazing how people will put up with mediocrity just because others aren't seeing it, or that's what the market demands, or that's what the public puts up with, and so forth.

I'm not going to carry protest signs downtown, but I am going to call out companies for anti-male advertising (I've been e-mailing some) and the next AFC chump I see get shouted down by his gal, I'm gonna say something.

Remember, those keys to the kingdom you've got just entitled you to unlock to the door to Poop Island.

 

[Alicorn]

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