Who Knows?

[Buddha_Mind]

I honestly have come to the conclusion that not-a-single-man-on-the-planet has this woman-shi.t figured out. I'd be suspect to say that in all of the time of humane existence, it has remained a mystery. Perhaps even it is the biggest universal joke that there is -- let's create two distinct but ever so lightly-different genders and watch the insanity unfold. Maybe evolutionary processes have an affinity for humor (or maybe there's a god and he's just a sick and crazy fuk).

We can go into all the various psychological models of alpha-beta-omega, we can talk about manly behavior (often synonymous with being unsympathetic and harsh or ego-driven), we can talk about escalating kino, responding less to texts, light insults to women, "training them" to avoid defiance, all sorts of scientific-like/sociology-like strategies and ideas and theories...

But you know what? They'll be some random case study that could break each one of these rules...man I was such an AFC back in the day and my GF at the time gave me head every night...often also mid-day as a fair-well-see-you-later...and afterwards I'd spill my guts (after spilling my nuts) to her about some anxiety over some test or something and she'd just smile. And then we'd have sex when I got back.

Who Knows?

We can even talk about "not needing anyone", or "the one who needs the relationship the least has the most power", but in the end I truly wonder if humanity will ever-get-by-without-each-other. If we're all carrying this mentality it sure seems like a nice prying to any potential human cohesion, doesn't it?

Let us all view the world and other people as things we'll never need for anything.

Sounds like a good American mentality to me. And how self-sufficient our nation is. We don't need anybody.

If America was a DJ, what would it's take be on its relationship to China[that slvt]?

Sometimes this Stuff Seems Heartless.

"If you need others less than they can never hurt you"
[Sounds like a conclusion found only after being burned badly (perhaps many times) after human investment].

Life itself -- beyond the perspective of women -- can sometimes seem a foggy haze enough as it is. I'm not sure how much we can "figure out" about women...it may just be an infinite chasm with so much variety that any trend you create is inevitably broken by some other example...

Perhaps all of this woman theorizing and practicing is helping us...we are making progress and "figuring things out"...or maybe we are learning to attract only women who fit the psychological mold we are reshaping...or maybe even, we are adopting ideas that contribute to failures in other arenas with them [women] as they are all unique.

Is this forum any different than a copy of Cosmopolitan or Seventeen magazine geared towards frustrated males?

Are we building an "us" against "them" mentality of the sexes...filling our minds with laws and frameworks that upon subjective experience, that will likely be challenged?

I wonder if those people in the world who are fortunate enough to have healthy relationships of their own choosing use these tactics...or perhaps they would mock them...Who Knows?! Likely, those folks do not frequent this place.

We come here to gain something by expressing our personal experiences, or by reading and digesting others's experiences, or gaining "how-to"-like advice. But maybe it's all an enigma anyways. Maybe nobody is ever supposed to get it.

I'm just going to start bringing an abundance mentality to this game and let all else fall apart.

 

[J. Darko]

Is this forum any different than a copy of Cosmopolitan or Seventeen magazine geared towards frustrated males?

No. This forum is like a girly magazine.

 

[Slickster]

I honestly have come to the conclusion that not-a-single-man-on-the-planet has this woman-shi.t figured out. I'd be suspect to say that in all of the time of humane existence, it has remained a mystery.

I think there are plenty of men who have it figured out just fine. Several of them hang around here too.

Nobody has it perfect though and it always takes effort because a woman is an ever changing creature based on daily hormonal shifts. That's why we love them right?

At the root of it all it is VERY simple.

Women want and need attention. It drives everything.

They communicate this to us in so many different ways. Some obvious and some not so. Learn how they communicate this to you.

Almost all problems with women come down to attention. Not enough, too much, wrong timing, wrong place, misguided, better attention from someone else, etc.

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

All you're doing here is perpetuating the myth of the feminine mystique (i.e. women are unknowable, random, capricious, ambiguous, etc.) What you think is arbitrary behavior is actually very calculated behavior, with specific, latent purposes. And like any other behaviorism, inferences, motivations and predictable outcomes can be drawn judging from past performances.

Perhaps the single most useful tool women have possessed for centuries is their unknowablity. I made that word up, but it's applicable; women for hundreds of years have cultivated this sense of being unknowable, random or in worse case fickle or ambiguous. This is the feminine mystique and it goes hand in hand with the feminine prerogative - a woman always reserves the right to change her mind. While a Man must never be anything less than forthright and resolute - say what you mean, mean what you say - women are rewarded and reinforced for being elusive and dare I say, seemingly irrational. In fact, if done with the right art, it's this elusiveness that makes her more desirable. However, to pull this off she must be (or seem to be) unknowable, and encourage men to believe so.

How many times have you been asked by a friend, "so, did ya get lucky with Kristy last night?" We don't think much of this passing question, but it's framed in such a way that men autonomously perpetuate the myth of this mystique. It's not luck that gets you laid. I understand that circumstance and being the right guy at the right time most certainly plays a part, but that's not what I'm driving at here. However, if we feel as though we got lucky, we won the lottery, or walked away with the PRIZE, it doesn't help us to understand what it is we did correctly in a given instance. Not only that it perpetuates women as the prize-givers. You were lucky to have gotten sex with her so it must be something rare and valuable indeed.

Because of this, most men don't question the process or the motives involved in intergender relations; they're just happy to have had the experience. When mixed with sexual deprivation, the luck element makes the sex that much more absorbing. It's this luck precognition for men and fostered by women that leads to the scarcity mentality and often (but not exclusively) ONEitis in men. It serve the feminine if men willingly adopt the luck mindset with regards to their intimacy. Sexuality is a woman's first, best agency and any social mechanism that contributes to the value of it will always be encouraged.

On this forum we strive to breakdown confusion and common problems by observing behavior, and we all know that women are human beings with the same basic motivations that men are subject to with some variation in their reasoning and methodologies. The point being that women are every bit as subject to being as mundane as men are, but the difference is that men don't enjoy a masculine mystique. With rare exceptions, we don't generally cultivate this sense of mystery because we're not rewarded for it as women are - and honestly, we haven't needed to. But for a woman, if she can cultivate this mystique, her attentions become a reward unto themselves for the guy who is lucky enough to tame her. Rest assured, when you think a woman is crazy, she's crazy like a fox; she's crazy with a reason. Women are every bit as calculating as men, in fact more so I'd argue because they have the mystique to hide a multitude of sins. They're not irrational, they're calculated - you just have to develop an ability to read a woman's actions and behaviors and see the plan behind them.

 

[squirrels]

Stop trying to emulate in software (brain) what the hardware (body/emotions/gut feeling) has been programmed to do.

 

[Warrior74]

Magnets, How do they work?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvmvxAcT_Yc

Real Talk Son

 

[Buddha_Mind]

There are some good perspectives here.

I would argue that women are not predictable from an objectionable point of view as something like gravity or intermolecular forces (hydrogen bonding) or electromagnetism are (thanks for the link warrior, was very helpful).

The above are objective things that we can evaluate with the scientific method over and over and claim the same results. Can we truly do the same with Male/Female or their interaction given the spectrum of human variance? Are these theories not failable?

I question if people are so predictable as we'd like to think, by comparison to working magnets or the forming of water; as they [people] can change a great deal; especially in light of new information and ideas. Women too.

Who knows how old civilization is? Or life? Or Earth?

All of these arenas are based on theories, which have been steadily changing in light of new evidence, especially this past century. I would venture to say it is also likely our current understandings are lacking and these theories will continue to change as we gather new evidence and make new discoveries.

Is the same to be said about the world of the female? That, we may have our theories now, but cannot gain new experiences which cause these theories to keep changing?

I have recently been experiencing some confusion and frustration--there is no doubt that is a catalyst too for this post. But I would be interested in clarification. I do understand what you are saying RT about learning to "pick up" on a woman's signals [good and bad], which to the uninformed male might go unnoticed, and in doing so we are able to keep control of the ship. We are able to see the signals and respond. If someone was working at a telegram office back in the day, and didn't know the signals, they might miss the message. I understand what you are saying in that regard.

I do understand that women do things that can present confusion, but many are, beneath the surface, dialed tactics just like our own. Or distress signals. Or attraction signals. I understand too some of it may be subconscious.

I also understand your comments, sspade, on the fact that many people believe it was by "an aligning of the stars" that they met [women often enjoy this more than the average man]...there is truth in background work as you mentioned [setting up dates, taking a frame, ect] that is not given credit to that "lining up".

But I would also say there is something to be said about *random chance*, afterall, science (the same mechanism which describes your magnetism and water) believes it is by this same method we were created, our genome built, ect. There are random occurrences in life of the unexpected that can take life on a different path. I am sure there is some of this in relationship also and we should be weary of strict frameworks.

 

[Midnight_Oil]

Human behavior is surprisingly predictable; if you observe without prejudice you can predict it fairly easily. ESPECIALLY when it comes to behavior toward the opposite sex.

The problem is that to a man, it is difficult to observe objectively when our passions and emotions are involved.

The thing I can't get past is the psychology/predictability of human behavior. It must be my superiority complex because the whole thought of being able to predict or shape the behavior of women makes them nothing more than machines to me. I'm a mechanically inclined guy. I know how things work and fit together; I know if I do X to a machine or turn a bolt, I know the results.

If I can do the same with women, I think they lack any sort of intelligence. Somehow, I think I'm beyond being human.

 

[countermart]

Yes, but a mechanical perspective is useful from some perspectives and to reply to the OP.

I think you are missing a basic point here. A lot of the DJ “tactics” if you like, actually work. It is not necessary to understand things or people. It is only necessary to know how to do things that work. For instance you may not know how an engine works or care, but you can still drive a car to get you to where you want to go. Some cars are better than other cars, and some cars are just straight out broken.

This does not change the fact that you knowing how to drive a car, is the correct way to drive a car. If a car has a broken fuel line there is no point in saying, “There must be something wrong with my driving technique, and therefore I need to change it?” No amount of changing your driving technique is going to change the fact that the fuel line is broken.

There is a lot of, “I must be doing something wrong” here, and not enough of I am dealing with the wrong type, or a broken car. In such cases the changes may be only minor designed specifically to the car itself. She’s a column shift girl, or she’s an automatic lol.

A lot of guys here have either driven a lot of cars, or taken one for a very long drive. When they tell you watch out if you insist on driving like that you are going to end up in a ditch half dead, you should listen to them.

Many women’s actions are entirely calculating, and at the same time women are commonly irrational, simply because they are more driven by emotion than us. To add to the paradox, for many things women actually do not know what they want, they want you to lead them. Remember they backwards rationalise. Do not get caught up trying to rationally figure out something that is commonly (not always) irrational.

The abundance mentality is interesting. I was thinking about it at a crowded pub the other night. I find it very amusing that so many girls walk by you and deliberately brush their breasts against you,... one, two ...three,...and four...this is getting ridiculous I thought. But I also thought that there was not one that I actually wanted. In fact there was hardly a girl there that I wanted, I could see through their make-up, their insecurities. I don’t want a girl that brushes her breasts against me if I haven’t even met her, it reeks of desperation. I was chatting to a girl, and later to a guy who said, “She is so fantastic, I am just not good enough for her”. I said, “You know it’s strange but I feel she is not good enough for me.” Like many things there is an abundance, but there is an abundance of the ones you don’t want.

Countermart

 

[Buddha_Mind]

If women were as predictable and "knowable" as you high-posting-high-green-karma-holders tout, why the f*ck do so many of you spend HOURS trawling this forum for any bit of juicy info towards anything?

Surely, the scientist reads his periodicals, but so too he does not use the beaker to lean against as a crutch, nor does he act as though what is written is all that there IS.

I see a lot of bitter BS around here...a lot values that I do not share...in fact sometimes the only things I find relevant to this place is shared broken hearts...

Many just use this place as a "boys club" to piss and moan...

I don't know if the key to your relationship success will ever be found at a place like this.

There is a reason many of the beginners of this forum are no longer here.

Life is a ***** women and work and well beyond. There are ups and downs. There are some horrible human beings and there are some very gracious ones. Women and men.

Discussion to infinity with crumbled hearts and fragments of bitterness aren't going to help find the good ones.

My time here is done.

 

[Jitterbug]

I don't know if the key to your relationship success will ever be found at a place like this.

The key is here, but there's still lots of work to be done once you've opened the door. It's not like you walk through the door then can sit back on the magic couch and women will line up to blow you from now till you're dead.

There is a reason many of the beginners of this forum are no longer here.

That's because they thought they'd find a magic trick here that'd transform their lives in 24h. Instead, they found that it requires a lot of work.

My time here is done.

Not the first time you've angrily whined about the same things and declared that you'd quit this place.

I could give you some analogies to other fields (& forums) where I've seen the exact same complaints - just with the word "women" exchanged with something else - such as business/finance and strength & fitness, but the point will be lost, so I won't bother.

Figuring out the How is easy. Practicing it is hard and not everyone can be a master.

To add to Rollo's excellent post, the feminine mystique is also a very cultural thing and dependent on historical periods. Not all men in history or from every culture were bothered by the supposed mystery of women. Most didn't give a sh1t, they had better things to worry about.

 

[Buddha_Mind]

Not the first time you've angrily whined about the same things and declared that you'd quit this place.

What is a person supposed to think every time they login to a place [to seek to improve], and instead find countless more examples of people contributing wonton shallow advice and more horror stories. I can't help but get pissed.

I definitely agree that practice is the hardest part. Putting yourself out there time and time again definitely is a wearing process. There is no easy way other than this. It can be very painful to fall.

I am just not sure that relationships are all as dark as this forum can often shade them. This site surprisingly gets a pretty strong flow of traffic -- mostly young males -- are we sensationalizing some things that are just part of basic life-growth? Most people in their early twenties have been hurt already -- it's easy for us all to group up and come up with these ideologies -- but perhaps its not so different than the ways in which other groups with extreme viewpoints form (and stick together and ostracize people with contrasting thoughts).

But how much reading or thinking in this way is too much and at what point does it even become disabling?

Regarding the mysterious nature of women: a rabbit is a rabbit and many rabbits, from Ohio to California likely enjoy vegetables. It's not that a white rabbit in Illinois won't care for the same carrot as the grey rabbit in Washington -- I bet they will both enjoy the stimulus. I recognize women are humans and respond to a certain set of psychological and biological stimulation.

But sometimes the rigid framework to which this site suggests, I believe, is faulted, by the very dynamics of human beings and their variation in past experiences and their unique personal histories.

And yes our time period and culture is a huge reason for half of these issues. Man back in the day your marriage is setup, its half for political/social reasons, maybe half for financial survival..."love" was probably a lesser facet at all....there are still places that operate this way.

The individuality hyper-state of the US and the very personalized world of career choices that all genders have access to, ect, really changes things. Back in the day, if your woman didn't want to marry you, but you wanted her, her dad was for it, well, her feelings didn't mean much. Today women have been liberated with "choice", "individuality", ect. This is not necessarily bad but it has changed the entire context and meaning of marriage, although I am pretty confident humans desire relationships, many of them value monogamous ones, and that is likely why even though marriage has shifted there will still be some people who opt for a 1:1 sort of relationship.

I also really think in some ways there are just some things that are "meant to be" and others that are not -- you can work and read and do every fvcking thing you can to ensure success, but some things are just not meant to flow in the ways that we wish them to.

 

[L B]

Hey Buddha_Mind. How many years does a monk mediate to seek enlightenment? The act of sitting there for minutes or hours at a time is simple enough, but how many can understand the complexity of it and apply his understanding of it to reach enlightenment? Not too many I am afraid. It takes decades of dedication that many will not be willing to give up.

As for the dating game: how long does it take for a guy to find a style that works for him and be somewhat successful? If he's lucky and caught on early (a natural) then not too long. But for the rest of us, it takes a long time and many painful lessons. And to be successful at it, we will have to apply what we learn over and over again and go through many trial and error to eventually find a dating style that fits us. How many will get discouraged during that process and give up and settle for less and marry the first thing that gives him any attention? Many.

As for reading the forum and finding negative things...that's your problem. Blame it on selective attention. People find what they seek. When I first discovered the forum, all I found were tips to improve myself. There were flame wars and guys trashing on women, I didn't notice them at all. I was spent a lot of time on the bible and the tips section. I focused on me and improving my game. I skip past any thread that wastes my time and only focus on the ones that will improve my knowledge of the game.

One last thing: stop looking to the past or other cultures to escape your reality. Be resourceful with what you have (use the tools at your disposal) to play the dating game. I can say the past sucks because people stink because they bath once a month or arrange marriage sucks because I could have married me a fatty and can't do sh!t about it.

 

[Buddha_Mind]

LB -- I am not religious, I definitely do not believe enlightenment is a real place! I understand what you are saying -- time and diligence and continued effort is the only way try to get better -- and even then, some may not.

I agree that we choose what we focus on -- I could learn to focus on the positive aspects of self-change, and just simply having fun with women rather than become entrenched in deep shi.t threads about more negative examples. That's like going online and focusing on all of the murders and rapes...I should be focusing on the new discoveries and recent adventures.

 

[Jitterbug]

Buddha_Mind,

I've been here for a while, lurking for a year and a half and applying its advices before I signed up. I started out to find ways to attract women. Now I'm here mostly to read about the various traps & miseries women can bring to a man's life, so I can avoid them.

Over time, I've learned that this site, like women, is like a mirror. You see your own state of mind, your strengths and weaknesses (usually the latter) in it. This site is different from other "Community" sites in that since it has no company behind it selling stuff, it contains many contradicting ideas coming from people's personal experiences. Therefore, depending on what's going on in your own head, you will see the ideas that reflect what you want to see, and won't see the rest. This site does not have a rigid structure, there is nobody leading it and dictating The Way of So-Suave. Any rigidity you see that you feel people here are forced to follow is all in your head. The site is neither positive or negative by nature, those feelings are entirely your own responsibility.

Your musings aren't the first, and won't be the last, of the same type. Many people have done so before you. Pook wrote about our natural desire for a relationship, yes, even a monogamous one. He also wrote about the mystery of women - the Sphinx's Riddle - i.e there is no riddle, there is no mystery. It is men's own imaginations that get projected onto women, for women are like a mirror that reflects ourselves back to us. The more we are attracted to a woman, the stronger our feelings are for her, the more accurately she reflects our strengths and weaknesses (usually the latter, as I've found).

You are around my age, and if I'm not mistaken, of a similar background. Young men our age (in this modern world) are about to enter the most important years of our life, when we reach our best years and peak in many things men are judged by - social status, career, wealth, relationship & family. It is natural that you will go deep inside yourself and examine where you are at, where you want to be and what you can do to get there - in this case, relationship & family.

I spent pretty much the whole of 2010 thinking about those things. I think it is a necessary step towards maturity, and I've come out of that much better off. I suggest try keeping your emotions out of that process, it really helps you to see things clearly and not get lost in your own thoughts.

This site - and the experiences shared by people on it - is a very useful tool, if you know how to use it.

 

[Jamo]

But sometimes the rigid framework to which this site suggests, I believe, is faulted, by the very dynamics of human beings and their variation in past experiences and their unique personal histories.

I would consider this "rigid" framework as training wheels (or boilerplate) to build up your confidence. Women will respond to this. Obviously you will need to improvise (as your comfort/understanding grows) as it is true human beings are complex and you have to take into account their personal histories - but again this applies to more towards LTRs. I would think that the basic framework is very effective as a "door opener" and in the short term as it addresses the very basic issues in the male/female relationship.

However there are philosophies (such as in Bhuddism) that state that existence is cyclical, therefore personalities also repeat. There are no truly unique individual personalities - only variations. This sort of makes sense as human behavior is quite predictable.

 

[Buddha_Mind]

I don't expect my musings to be some profound earth-shattering thing. I don't claim for them to be the first nor the last.

There are no Golden Chalices in life for anything.
There is no enlightenment.
SoSuave is an Arrow if anything. Don't let it become the Idol of Worship.

I disagree that there is no structure within this website -- it may lack a figurehead, but strong social pressure causes certain conformations. In the masses that reply, and by those who are deemed with having reputation, there is a molding of ideology through shear social commentary and response.

Yes, negative and positive are relative. But don't be fooled that some wonton advice by someone you've never met could have real negative effects in your life. ****.ing around women can have its natural flowing back of consequences.

I am not sure all are mirrors. I've met some very mean and terrible people. If anything though, we can definitely learn from our emotional responses, and this can definitely indicate things about ourselves or our judgments or perceptions.

One thing I will say really, is that as human beings we don't have to deny our emotions. We should definitely monitor them. We don't have to wear them on our sleeve -- and we ought to think of the end-goal and not let passing whims ultimately trump our end-goal.

But it's not AFC to feel love and goodness. I imagine if you are a good person it is because someone once loved you. Find someone who has never been loved and tell me their mental quality. I hope to god that if someone chooses to marry and to have children, that they feel a deep sense of love for that person and the mission they are on -- for there will be sacrifice and unexpected challenges.

 

[Colossus]

Buddah Mind:

I've had many of the same ponderings as you, and I think it's totally natural at this stage in life. Rollo and Jitterbug hit some really good points, in their own way. Like Jitterbug I've spent the better part of the last year trying to make sense of matters like this in my head. And, as is often the case with an enigma, the "mystique" only lies in your mind. The genius of the riddle is that there is no riddle....it's an illusion of the mind. I know that sounds really nebulous and cliche, so I'll simplify it: Stop trying to figure women out. Stop trying to figure relationships out. When you do this, the biases and scars and influences you have in your mind will be out of the equation, and things will make themselves clear sooner or later.

Women want you to believe in their "mystique" because it is advantageous for them. It's not much different than when a man had a woman buffaloed with his charm--it helps him get the outcome he wants. Same with women--they are calculating, but not in the systematic, scientific way that men are. They intuitively behave in certain ways that will help bring them the outcome they want. They would like us to believe it's a "mystery". It isnt. What they do makes perfect sense in their own minds, just not always to us. A lot of guys take a dark turn here and view male-female relationships as adversarial; a battle to be won. Well if you view things this way that's what your life will be, a never-ending war.

We live in a world of hurt. By that i mean that everybody on this planet acts out of their own hurt and pain, in some capacity. In many ways we mirror what was done to us, and we try to seek what we did not get from people who cannot give it. This is the cycle of humanity, the cycle of hurt. That guy who who killed those people in Tuscon? He was acting out of his own pain, wherever it came from. People like to call him a Monster, a Psychopath; but they have no idea what was going on in his head. I guarantee you he was hurting more than anyone ever knew, and anger is the evidence of pain. In no way does that excuse what he did, nor make it any less tragic, but anybody is capable of anything, and if you dont believe that you are deluding yourself.

I guess the point I am making here is that 'women' are no more to be figured out than 'men' are to be figured out. PEOPLE--their scars, pain, motivations, and desires--are to be figured out. Women just take things in a different direction than we do, and we cant act all baffled when they do. People are much like trees, in that a tree is composed of ALL the rings of its years, not just what you see. Past events and behavior will always be the most reliable way to truly know what someone is about, and why they do what they do.

 

[Buddha_Mind]

I appreciate this response and the others -- thanks for taking the time to contribute your perspectives.

 

[Slickster]

If women were as predictable and "knowable" as you high-posting-high-green-karma-holders tout, why the f*ck do so many of you spend HOURS trawling this forum for any bit of juicy info towards anything?

I'm not trying to brag here BM and I'm by no means perfect but I do feel that I have an excellent grasp on the topic of "women". Attraction, rapport, connections, dating, relationships, and sex are all my strong suits. I've never been an expert PUA but when it comes to getting girls I've had a lot of success. My friends come to me all the time with their woman problems and issues. I've lost count long ago the number of guys I've helped "see the light". I come here to help my brothers in any way I can. That being said I still learn stuff here all the time. It also helps me stay focused when I get lazy or complacent in life.

I see a lot of bitter BS around here...a lot values that I do not share...in fact sometimes the only things I find relevant to this place is shared broken hearts...

Yep, there are a lot of negative people here. Are you one of them? I don't agree with a lot of attitudes here either. I just press on, ignoring the bs and preaching my own positive message. I know what works from experience and I want to pass it on. Occasionally I get a nice private message that says "thank you." If I can help one person then it feels worthwhile.

Many just use this place as a "boys club" to piss and moan...

Yes, it's lame.

I don't know if the key to your relationship success will ever be found at a place like this.

The key to relationship success IS here! I'm living proof.

There is a reason many of the beginners of this forum are no longer here.

They are quitters.

Discussion to infinity with crumbled hearts and fragments of bitterness aren't going to help find the good ones.

Yes, I agree. Why get hung up on it? Push forward. See the positive.

My time here is done.

So you are a quitter like so many before you....