When did males become females and vice versa?

Heretolearn

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great thread guys!

I agree with joekker that we should all know how to do everything important to us

I agree with girlcrazy that sometimes you have to efficiently get someone else to assist.

The key for me is to never put your life in someone elses hands and expect them to carry you. Be your own person, girl or guy!
 

dakota

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The single most important factor that has been completely overlooked in terms of male female dynamics is the automobile. NO OTHER factor is as important as this one. The car has been the driving force behind all significant changes, especially in the USA.
Example: myth " females are more independent now because ( insert your wrong assumpition here)".

Reality: the advent of the automobile allowed females the ability to socially date, get jobs, an education without parental supervision ( date), or approval ( date, jobs, education).

Furthermore intially it was the males who were exclusivly the drivers so they gained independence from their family first and the female was simply along for the ride.

Social norms has slowly been changed as the female now exerts the independence that the automobile allows. Everything goes back to the automobile.
 
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al77

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Originally posted by dakota
The single most important factor that has been completely overlooked in terms of male female dynamics is the automobile. NO OTHER factor is as important as this one. The car has been the driving force behind all significant changes, especially in the USA.
Example: myth " females are more independent now because ( insert your wrong assumpition here)".

Reality: the advent of the automobile allowed females the ability to socially date, get jobs, an education without parental supervision ( date), or approval ( date, jobs, education).

Furthermore intially it was the males who were exclusivly the drivers so they gained independence from their family first and the female was simply along for the ride.

Social norms has slowly been changed as the female now exerts the independence that the automobile allows. Everything goes back to the automobile.
Cars brings independence, jobs and education to women?
dakota, are you from highschool forum?
It was culture that spoils women, that gives them jobs, education and ability to buy cars. In US it is business culture that spoils women.

Think about other countries. Just one example: Saudi Arabia for sure has a lot of cars, but women are simply are not allowed to drive due to their culture based on religion.
 

al77

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Originally posted by STR8UP

Just got off the phone with my sister. I was informing her of an investment opportunity that looks pretty good to me.
... "I'll talk it over with the hubby. Let me go now....I'm getting driving lessons with our new Vette". What a way to spend half of that windfall there, sis.

Then the other day her kids were asking why their uncle is "rich". And she says, "Well, lets see, never married, no kids, hmmm....." What a bunch of BS.
STR8UP,
That was a very good example. Moreover I notice women hate men who spend & invest wisely.
You can be safe while you are in the field of "It was a huge sale, I got a great deal, 60% off". This is approved by society and women tend aprove it as well.
But if you move further and actually look at the price tag and figure out that 60% off means nothing since the original price is too high anyway, I guarantee most women will get mad, but probably will not show that immediately "Ooohh.. he is so cheap!"

My understanding is women view any man who can handle money well as.. cheap (even if he has millions) or at least not generous (which is practically the same for in women's minds).

They, women, love men who doesn't care about money, who spend like there is no tomorrow. So here we have another typical feature of a "jerk": somebody who spends spends spends is in favor!
 

dakota

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Originally posted by al77
Cars brings independence, jobs and education to women?
dakota, are you from highschool forum?
It was culture that spoils women, that gives them jobs, education and ability to buy cars. In US it is business culture that spoils women.

Think about other countries. Just one example: Saudi Arabia for sure has a lot of cars, but women are simply are not allowed to drive due to their culture based on religion.
Al77,
I do not want to get in a silly arguement. Nor do I have any desire to justify my view based on my own education etc. You are entitled to believe whatever you want, no matter how wrong you are.
I must point out that your example underscores my point exactly. Despite having cars in Saudia Arabia ... with females not being allowed to drive.. well that means they CAN not achieve the independence, jobs and education they might want.
 

al77

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Originally posted by dakota
I must point out that your example underscores my point exactly. Despite having cars in Saudia Arabia ... with females not being allowed to drive.. well that means they CAN not achieve the independence, jobs and education they might want.
And you still cannot see what is the problem with your assumption? Sure the situation there cannot be compared with opportunities women have in US.

How about other quite "automobilized" countries who allow women to drive? Do women in other automobilized countries have similar opportunities? No, we don't even have to look at statistics. It is all different.
The primary factor is having opportunities for women to earn money (and sure have cars). There is a very straighforward correlation: the more opportunities women have to make a lot of money in a country, the more independence, education opportunities etc they have. And the more b*achy women are.

Some countries are trying to balance women's desire to work, for example Germany: they a very good social system so women who have kis don't even need to work. Tell this to US women...
nowdays American women all about work, work, work...

How do cars fit the picture? Women having cars are simply a result of women having more money. And why women have more money? Because the society allowed them to have any jobs that give them tons of money.
 

WestCoaster

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NYC

Millions of women in NYC don't own cars, one of my best friends in the Big Apple makes good cash there and left his car in L.A. with his folks because of no need for one.

Stupid premise.
 

joekerr31

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just wanted to through out some thoughts for folks to consider...

you know, I personally don't believe that American women have it that good.

Sure, they have more career opportunities, but honestly, most of corporate america is still run by white males. there's the token female near the top so that the company looks politically correct, but she's usually very aware that one step out of line and she's gone.

so maybe 1 out of 100 women are truly let into the upper ranks, but they pay a huge price for that. they have to perform their jobs flawlessly, they are really only there to make the company look PC, and because they have to work so hard they usually have horrible personal lives.

meanwhile, there are TONS of women at the lower levels busting their ass with the belief that they will be able to rise through the ranks. but they never really do. at the end of the day rising in the ranks is partly due to talent, but its also due to teamwork and gaining hte trust of those higher in the pack. women just aren't very good at this, and thats partly becuase men at the top don't give them a fair chance, and also because when they are given a fair chance they don't know how to socially handle themselves.

corporate america is run by men, not just CEOs, but VPs and directors, etc...
and men are men, and at best a woman will be able to impress them, but will never truly and fully fit in as part of the pack. that's just how it is.

so what i see happening today is women busting their asses and really going nowhere. sure, they may move up a rung or two, but 95% of them never go further than that.

partly because its a man's world, and partly becuase business IS NOT about emotion. and that's something women just don't get. 95% of them, no matter how hard they try, simple are unable to remain emotionally objective. Once the competition heats up most women crack.

The reality is that I don't care how strong or smart a woman may be, when she comes face to face with a true alpha male, she crumbles instantly. I've seen it over and over in the corporate world. These women will push around these AFC chumps, and actually climb the ladder a bit, until they hit their first alpha male. at that point they quickly realize that they are swimming in deep waters now and start to panic, or break down crying and question what they've done with their lives and why is everyone so mean, blah blah blah...


women are manipulative, NOT tough. the only reason so many women today THINK they are tough is because there so many god damn AFC around who the moment a woman throws a fit curl up into a little ball and beg for her to stop.

so many guys today don't realize that they are naturally stronger and tougher than women.

i can tell you, i've been in meetings with some of the toughest b*tches out there. And every single one of them, EVERY SINGLE ONE GUYS, crumbles the moment you look them square in the eye with a stern alpha male look. the moment they think you might fight back, that's it, they know their ACTING will now have to be backed up with someone - and they know they don't have the testosterone to back it up.

If there's one thing i really wish men would get through their heads it that YOU are the dominant one. when a female acts dominent, thats all it is, ACTING. and she can only get away with whatever you choose to let her get away with. the moment you assert yourself she has two choices

1) stop acting
2) throw a hissy fit (in which case just walk away)

so i think this whole thing about American women having it good is bullsh*t. they are living a lie that is enabled by the AFC mentality of the men in their lives.

J
 

dakota

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Re: NYC

Originally posted by WestCoaster
Millions of women in NYC don't own cars, one of my best friends in the Big Apple makes good cash there and left his car in L.A. with his folks because of no need for one.

Stupid premise.
Ok,
one more time. Exactly my point! Most likely your freind needed a car or car byproduct to initially gain his current level of education and emplyoment. Car byproduct would be any internal combustion engine or its offspring ( car, truck, plane, cab). Just consider... what would be the effect on your current lifestyle if the internal combustion engine magically disappeared. Get to work? Go to school? Go on vacation? Buy products? Live in a large city? There is a myriad of consequences.

In MOST of america a car is needed to obtain wealth and emplyoment. wealth and emplyoment DOES NOT LEAD to cars as transportation ( though it does lead to more expensive cars).


In regards to the initial premise. In 1900, with no cars america was mostly rural. people, for the most part, married locally and lived locally. Men had to go over to the females house of residence with parents there for approval.
The advent of the car allowed " dates" and meetings to take place away from the two parental households. Typically in the early period of youth driving it was the male who did the driving. As males began driving this allowed them greater freedoms of where they could go for education, employment, and social interaction than the females of the era who were still bound to familiy obligations.
A significant shift in america came during WWII, at this time females gained employment and primary driver status. When the american male returned from the war initially females went back to their former role. However, dynamics had changed. Females had experienced greater freedoms and sought them out again.
The importance of the car dynamic was accelerated by general motors post war methodical dismantling of the passenger rail system in the United states. Anyhow, I can go further, but people for the most will believe what they want to. I have no desire to " convince" anyone that I am " right". For every GENERAL statement of an issue it is easy to take SPEFIFIC examples to cast doubt.
 
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Peace and Quiet

If you currently have too many women chasing you, calling you, harassing you, knocking on your door at 2 o'clock in the morning... then I have the simple solution for you.

Just read my free ebook 22 Rules for Massive Success With Women and do the opposite of what I recommend.

This will quickly drive all women away from you.

And you will be able to relax and to live your life in peace and quiet.

al77

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Re: Re: NYC

dakota,

You seem forget about other countries. They also have cars, but their women do not have so many opportunities as American women do. Some of them are not independent at all, but drive cars freely. How would you explain that?

Also...at the very same time cars became avaiable to men, they become available to women. There was no restriction of who can drive a car. Women got an advatange - yes, but men also got it.
So what is the big deal about cars and women?
 

dakota

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Re: Re: Re: NYC

Originally posted by al77
dakota,

You seem forget about other countries. They also have cars, but their women do not have so many opportunities as American women do. Some of them are not independent at all, but drive cars freely. How would you explain that?

Also...at the very same time cars became avaiable to men, they become available to women. There was no restriction of who can drive a car. Women got an advatange - yes, but men also got it.
So what is the big deal about cars and women?
No, I am not forgetting about other countries. Yes, cars are everywhere but nowhere else in the world are they as essential as in america.
Ok, how about this. Since you seem to not grasp the effect transportation has on culture. Take a group of americans and establish rules that do not allow them to use cars for the past 100 years.... what do you have? The old order amish. Now I am not saying that the "lack of car" created the amish. But I am saying that the lack of using cars has allowed them to maintain their way of life much more effectivly than using cars would have.
Notice, there is no " legal restriction" upon using cars for them, they have the " freedom to drive", simply choose not to.

The basic premise is the car is a critical underlying factor in how relationship dynamics between men and women have developed.(As well as the cultural fabric as a whole)
 

Heretolearn

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interesting thread!

I understand both viewpoints about the car issue

Great post joekker about the corporate world.

A girl generally gets one moody meeting before something changes :)

However, will this change in the future? Right now the top is manned by men. Will it and could it shift to women at the very top. If so, I am becoming a house husband!
 

OpenMind

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Originally posted by joekerr31
just wanted to through out some thoughts for folks to consider...

you know, I personally don't believe that American women have it that good.

Sure, they have more career opportunities, but honestly, most of corporate america is still run by white males. there's the token female near the top so that the company looks politically correct, but she's usually very aware that one step out of line and she's gone.

so maybe 1 out of 100 women are truly let into the upper ranks, but they pay a huge price for that. they have to perform their jobs flawlessly, they are really only there to make the company look PC, and because they have to work so hard they usually have horrible personal lives.

meanwhile, there are TONS of women at the lower levels busting their ass with the belief that they will be able to rise through the ranks. but they never really do. at the end of the day rising in the ranks is partly due to talent, but its also due to teamwork and gaining hte trust of those higher in the pack. women just aren't very good at this, and thats partly becuase men at the top don't give them a fair chance, and also because when they are given a fair chance they don't know how to socially handle themselves.

corporate america is run by men, not just CEOs, but VPs and directors, etc...
and men are men, and at best a woman will be able to impress them, but will never truly and fully fit in as part of the pack. that's just how it is.

so what i see happening today is women busting their asses and really going nowhere. sure, they may move up a rung or two, but 95% of them never go further than that.

partly because its a man's world, and partly becuase business IS NOT about emotion. and that's something women just don't get. 95% of them, no matter how hard they try, simple are unable to remain emotionally objective. Once the competition heats up most women crack.

The reality is that I don't care how strong or smart a woman may be, when she comes face to face with a true alpha male, she crumbles instantly. I've seen it over and over in the corporate world. These women will push around these AFC chumps, and actually climb the ladder a bit, until they hit their first alpha male. at that point they quickly realize that they are swimming in deep waters now and start to panic, or break down crying and question what they've done with their lives and why is everyone so mean, blah blah blah...


women are manipulative, NOT tough. the only reason so many women today THINK they are tough is because there so many god damn AFC around who the moment a woman throws a fit curl up into a little ball and beg for her to stop.

so many guys today don't realize that they are naturally stronger and tougher than women.

i can tell you, i've been in meetings with some of the toughest b*tches out there. And every single one of them, EVERY SINGLE ONE GUYS, crumbles the moment you look them square in the eye with a stern alpha male look. the moment they think you might fight back, that's it, they know their ACTING will now have to be backed up with someone - and they know they don't have the testosterone to back it up.

If there's one thing i really wish men would get through their heads it that YOU are the dominant one. when a female acts dominent, thats all it is, ACTING. and she can only get away with whatever you choose to let her get away with. the moment you assert yourself she has two choices

1) stop acting
2) throw a hissy fit (in which case just walk away)

so i think this whole thing about American women having it good is bullsh*t. they are living a lie that is enabled by the AFC mentality of the men in their lives.

J
absolutely brilliant!
 

al77

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Re: Re: Re: Re: NYC

Originally posted by dakota
No, I am not forgetting about other countries. Yes, cars are everywhere but nowhere else in the world are they as essential as in america.
Ok, how about this. Since you seem to not grasp the effect transportation has on culture. Take a group of americans and establish rules that do not allow them to use cars for the past 100 years.... what do you have? The old order amish. Now I am not saying that the "lack of car" created the amish. But I am saying that the lack of using cars has allowed them to maintain their way of life much more effectivly than using cars would have.
Notice, there is no " legal restriction" upon using cars for them, they have the " freedom to drive", simply choose not to.

The basic premise is the car is a critical underlying factor in how relationship dynamics between men and women have developed.(As well as the cultural fabric as a whole)
dakota,

Ok, what would Americans do without cars? They go back to a) developing more railroads as they had it before GM killed it b) people start moving to big cities where public transportation is available. Would these changes change the amout of independece etc that American women have? Of course no.
It is a _cultural_ thing.

I am having hard time getting why you mentioned Amish. No one will go back to teh Amich way of life even if you ban cars in US. Moreover _most_ Amish are not allowed to drive, their religion, their culture prohibits the driving.
(Some of them drive, but they are ovbiously not pure Amish anymore.)
 

al77

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Originally posted by joekerr31
just wanted to through out some thoughts for folks to consider...
you know, I personally don't believe that American women have it that good.

Sure, they have more career opportunities, but honestly, most of corporate america is still run by white males. there's the token female near the top so that the company looks politically correct, but she's usually very aware that one step out of line and she's gone.

they are living a lie that is enabled by the AFC mentality of the men in their lives.

It is sure true about the situation you described.
Although it has to do with a very small percentage of women (as you pointed that out).

I am guessing a more frequent situation is when she is getting like 60-100k doing some computer stuff for example and living in a small suburban town, while most guys around are getting like 2 times less. This is a problem, this cannot be fixed just by not being an AFC. She doesn't want to date down, she wants to date up. So what she does is... fvck around, since she has hard time finding a guy who earns similar money, fits her prince charming image and live in the same small town. Simple there is not many such guys there.
With teh amount of money she earns she simply cannot find a good match.
Note she is not even a workaholic, she just earns relatively a lot of money for a small town she is living in.
 

joekerr31

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Originally posted by yendor28
interesting thread!

I understand both viewpoints about the car issue

Great post joekker about the corporate world.

A girl generally gets one moody meeting before something changes :)

However, will this change in the future? Right now the top is manned by men. Will it and could it shift to women at the very top. If so, I am becoming a house husband!
nope, it will always be men at hte top. ALWAYS.

im not sayign that as a call to action, im saying that as pure and simple fact.

women simply do not have the PACK mentality that is required to get to the top.

to get to the top you have to be trust worthy. its really not that much different than the mob. LOYALTY is the absolute most important quality. and for someone to feel you are loyal, they need to feel that you are one of them.

no matter how hard women try, the group of guys at the top will never let them into the club fully.

the only option are for women to go and run their own businesses and rule over those businesses. but in typical corporate america, do not fool yourselves, Men own it and always will.

J
 

Heretolearn

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Great response, however I was thinking more of a shift of businesses developed by women hence they came on top.

I know it would take a while but imagine if the oil, gas and mining industries were supplanted by some new energy source controlled by companies led by women.

That would be a significant turning point and then may create a domino effect.

This is pure speculation and hyperbole on my behalf but it is interesting to hear the reasons WHY that would not happen (apart from the low probabiity of my far fetched ideas :) )

Is there something else apart from trust and loyalty?
 

joekerr31

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it wouldn't happen because the world is a pre-established hierarchy.

monies shift here and there, but basically the rich stay rich. and 90% of the wealth thats in this world is in the hands of men.

i mean, tons of women have started hugely successful business. its still just a drop in the bucket compared with the overall wealth world wide and who controls it.

short of men handing over all their wealth to women, the status quo will take hundreds of years to break.

the woman's movement gave women the freedom to work and stuf.. great... now what? now they compete in the same system we do. the only difference is its a system run by men.

and let's also be clear on something. most men get screwed by the system also. but the potn is that 90% of the wealth still resides in the hands of rich males.

and even barring my previous arguments, its impossible to stay competitive at the level you need to in order to reach the top if you want to pop out 2-3 kids. its simply not possible. i mean, the guys who control all the wealth completely neglect their families most of the time.

so long story short, it will take centuries for women to make any signficiant dent into the order of things today. i mean, there's yet to be a period in history (as far as im aware) where women were the dominent element of society and men were the submissive.

i have no clue how it is that women even get it into their heads that they can one day own as much of the power in the world as men. its a ludicrous thought.

but who knows. maybe some scientist will figure out a way for men to become pregnant so that women dont have to. that would definitely rock the foundation of my hypethosis.

J
 

Genghis Juan

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Women need men just as much as they always have. The phrases like "women don't NEED men anymore" or "men need to become more useful" are just silly.

Usually the women that repeat these phrases over and over unattached, bitter and usually homely. They say these things to make themselves feel better. The vast majority of people that I've come across that are very insecure and have low self-esteem are women.
 

Peace and Quiet

If you currently have too many women chasing you, calling you, harassing you, knocking on your door at 2 o'clock in the morning... then I have the simple solution for you.

Just read my free ebook 22 Rules for Massive Success With Women and do the opposite of what I recommend.

This will quickly drive all women away from you.

And you will be able to relax and to live your life in peace and quiet.

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