What's your oppinion on DocLove? Is he right as he thinks he is?

Blue Phoenix

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"David deangelo fabricates his own mailbags";

"Doc is a moron";

" "..." is just there for the money";

Come on guys, all these comments are pretty degradating.

This is the same as saying teachers just teaches for the money! It's not like that. Of course they're that for the money (we all work with something so we can make money).

But just because you're teaching someone it doesnt mean you're a mercenery. WHO would work for free?

Anyway, and believe or not, people usually value things they pay for, and free things are taken as inferior or not good!

Both Doc and David give good info, especially David.
 

Giovanni Casanova

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Doc Love is full of sh*t more than he's right about things.
 
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Re: Re: Re: Re: What's your oppinion on DocLove? Is he right as he thinks he is?

Originally posted by squirrels
It's a weak approach to begin with.
which would be strength or strong approach then ?
 

Bonhomme

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Doc and David

I strongly agree both ways regarding Doc. While I may find many aspects of his style rather amusing (perhaps he is being tongue-in-cheek with the license plate, poodle, and all that -- at least I hope so), a lot of his info is good for deprogramming the worst obsessive sort of AFC behaviors. BUT -- as Gio points out -- some of his stuff is way off the mark. He's as overly hung-up on "challenge" as David DeAngelo is on "****y and funny."

My take on DeAngelo is that his info is great, except for one great, big caveat: not everyone can pull off ****y and funny! If it comes naturally, by all means run with it, but forced attempts at C+F are just dorky, and as such worse than useless. One can be a hell of a mack scarcely saying a word. If a gal's interested enough, it's easy to draw her out, get her talking abouit herself, and develop a bit of rapport. Get the non-verbal aspects down, and you'll have gals talking about the weather to you to keep you engaged in converstion with them.
 

ToughGuy

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He is uncomparable!!

Doc love is uncomparable!!

Not even David doesn't have that much depth.

Tuffy
 

Giovanni Casanova

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Re: He is uncomparable!!

Originally posted by ToughGuy
Doc love is uncomparable!!

Not even David doesn't have that much depth.
Hahahahahahahaha!

That's right.
 

Surfboard

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Doc Love is full of sh*t more than he's right about things.
Gio,

What are the things that you disagree with about Doc Love?

It's funny how some of you guys say how great this site is, but at the same time you complain about Doc Love.

NEWSFLASH!!!

Doc Love/Anti-Dump and Allen's articles are the foundation of this forum. I'd say about 90% of the things preached here come straight out of Doc Love's book.

Sure there's a couple of things I disagree with, but to say that Doc Love is full of shyt more than he's right is a big joke. :rolleyes:
 

AlwaysExcel

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Surfboard, you're right that some of the advice on here, especially anti-dump's, sounds a lot like Doc Love. Well, I view that advice as pretty limited as well. Numbers mean shyt unless you've developed sufficient interest AND rapport. But Doc Love teaches to only spend about 20 minutes with the girl to create challenge. Then when the girl flakes, he says that she wasn't sufficiently interested in you so it's good you aren't wasting your time with her. BullShyt.

Interest can be stimulated. It's not a numbers game. DL relies only on the girl's physical attraction to you. Girls give and get numbers from attractive guys all the time. What sets you apart? Why should they remember another 5-20 minute encounter??

DL doesn't teach ways to convey your personality in an attractive manner. He just says to keep it light and funny so you DON'T TURN HER OFF. A lot of dudes need more specific advice than that, especially advice on how that light and funny stuff can stimulate attraction rather than preserve attraction. I used to avoid telling funny stories about my life because that would be "anti-mystery" and "revealing too much."

Also, attraction is not all there is to it. Rapport is important too. Revealing very little about yourself is shady and breaks rapport. I used to be so paranoid about building rapport and kept girls at an arms length in order to be more mysterious. Totally backfired.

You can create challenge in other ways than limiting your time with her. Challenge and mystery do not have to depend so much on phone game and limited dates. I see way too many people stressing out about this minor crap.

Doc Love and co don't even teach about same night lays. Spending 1-7 hours with a girl when you first meet her and then fvcking her does not mean that you screwed up and failed to be a challenge. Likewise, giving a girl kino is not anti-challenge.

Also, being defensive and trying to keep the girls from using you is weak and insecure. What's important is not trying to buy her affection, doing what you want, leading not following. Sure you can spin DL advice as saying what I said BUT that lame ass combative misogynist ultra serious tone and language DL and a lot of folks on here use expresses just how weak and defensive this advice really is. A girl shouldn't phase you. Hating women shows how much pain they cause you. Being suspicious of women shows that they still CAN phase you and you're trying to protect against this.

Who cares if a woman is hanging out with you only for her entertainment??? That doesn't reflect on you. It reflects on the fact that you haven't yet conveyed yourself properly. Use her attention and stimulus seeking ways as an opportunity to turn her and fvck the shyt out of her.

Ok, so probably DL type advice is all about finding a monogamous LTR. Screen the shyt out of her if you are going to invest yourself into her. Find that perfect girl who won't shyt on you. Well, I just don't see people as being that permanent. Morals, attraction, interests, personalities, etc etc shift and change with time and with specific pressures/stimuli. Even DL admits that you have to maintain IL throughout the relationship. So why the big emphasis on screening for users etc? Maybe, the fact that "a good girl" means less work on your part? I'll think about that. But making emotional moral judgements about a woman's "character" is not realistic or useful imho.

I personally screen girls for those I can have a good time with. If they begin to stop giving me a good time, I start to lose interest. I have a better time with girls with whom I have common interests. Also, different girls offer different things. One girl might like to dance to the same music as me and is really sexy, yet she's on anti-depressants. If I was screening her for the perfect mate, I'd have to next her. Since I don't screen for the perfect mate, I can enjoy the good things about her and not get sucked into the bad areas. Enjoy people for who they are, don't try to find the perfect people. For me, trying to find one person with the full package is unnecessary.

So I'm coming from a completely different viewpoint but I have tried the DL world view and think it's unrealistic.
 
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For years I tried the Doc love approach on women and hasn't worked at all ... i've had relationships with women for more than a year and a half, asking me to marry her... just using my common sense
Before I went into the last relationship I had, she was interested in a guy she was working with and I was with a GF, it all started as a friendship .... with time I broke with my GF and she was no longer interested in her workmate... but the relationship was still there, course we two ended as a couple.
why did I spend this 99 USD on his system anyways?
 

BGMan

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Originally posted by Giovanni Casanova
Doc Love is a moron. But a broken watch is still right twice a day.

The occasions that he is actually right about something are overshadowed by all of the times that he is not just wrong, but HOPELESSLY, CLUELESSLY, FATALLY WRONG. He is a shyster first and foremost, and he makes his money off of guys who are clueless and lost. He preys on that vulnerability. He sets up his concession stand in the middle of the desert and sells salt water to travellers dying of thirst.
Really? How is he so hopelessly, cluelessly, and fatally wrong? I really would like you to explain.

Originally posted by AlwaysExcel
Then when the girl flakes, he says that she wasn't sufficiently interested in you so it's good you aren't wasting your time with her. BullShyt.
Why is that "BullShyt"? If she ain't feelin' you, you're probably wasting your time. Duh.

Originally posted by AlwaysExcel
DL doesn't teach ways to convey your personality in an attractive manner. He just says to keep it light and funny so you DON'T TURN HER OFF. A lot of dudes need more specific advice than that, especially advice on how that light and funny stuff can stimulate attraction rather than preserve attraction. I used to avoid telling funny stories about my life because that would be "anti-mystery" and "revealing too much."
Agreed. That is THE BIG hole in his "System". To use his own terminology, he uses generalities, and not specifics when it comes to HOW to talk to a girl. I suppose he's expecting you to call him and pay through the nose to learn more. He DOES seem to have a bit of the sleazy salesman persona.

Originally posted by AlwaysExcel
Also, attraction is not all there is to it. Rapport is important too. Revealing very little about yourself is shady and breaks rapport. I used to be so paranoid about building rapport and kept girls at an arms length in order to be more mysterious. Totally backfired.
You have something there, I'll admit.

Originally posted by AlwaysExcel
You can create challenge in other ways than limiting your time with her. Challenge and mystery do not have to depend so much on phone game and limited dates. I see way too many people stressing out about this minor crap.
I really don't have a lot of time for dates anyway, so I'm covered. :)

Originally posted by AlwaysExcel
Doc Love and co don't even teach about same night lays. Spending 1-7 hours with a girl when you first meet her and then fvcking her does not mean that you screwed up and failed to be a challenge. Likewise, giving a girl kino is not anti-challenge.
I find kino works only if you make it look accidental. Otherwise, yes, it DOES turn her off. And I'm not interested in ONS'es anyway since, frankly, they're immoral.

Originally posted by AlwaysExcel
Also, being defensive and trying to keep the girls from using you is weak and insecure. What's important is not trying to buy her affection, doing what you want, leading not following. Sure you can spin DL advice as saying what I said BUT that lame ass combative misogynist ultra serious tone and language DL and a lot of folks on here use expresses just how weak and defensive this advice really is. A girl shouldn't phase you. Hating women shows how much pain they cause you. Being suspicious of women shows that they still CAN phase you and you're trying to protect against this.

Who cares if a woman is hanging out with you only for her entertainment??? That doesn't reflect on you. It reflects on the fact that you haven't yet conveyed yourself properly. Use her attention and stimulus seeking ways as an opportunity to turn her and fvck the shyt out of her.

Ok, so probably DL type advice is all about finding a monogamous LTR. Screen the shyt out of her if you are going to invest yourself into her. Find that perfect girl who won't shyt on you. Well, I just don't see people as being that permanent. Morals, attraction, interests, personalities, etc etc shift and change with time and with specific pressures/stimuli. Even DL admits that you have to maintain IL throughout the relationship. So why the big emphasis on screening for users etc? Maybe, the fact that "a good girl" means less work on your part? I'll think about that. But making emotional moral judgements about a woman's "character" is not realistic or useful imho.
Yes, there are problems and weaknesses with it, and it tends to make a guy more inclined to NEXT girls quickly. And he does come across as a bit misogynistic, and he's not married either, which should tell us something. But if you're just looking for one-night-stands, fvck buddies, STR's, or whatever, then yes I think Doc Love isn't as useful as other techniques (or making your own!).

But then you have people like GC who criticize Doc Love without saying why. People need to talk about WHY there are weaknesses in Doc Love's method rather than just say things like "oh yeah, Doc Love is lame, he's a loser, etc. etc." which is just plain counterproductive. Reason being, I haven't really found anything better.

As far as I'm concerned, his concepts on female Interest Level seem to be borne out by reality totally. There is no situation that I know of in which low Interest Level has been turned around. Oh sure, I know of cases where it appears to happen and the girl and guy use each other for fvck buddies, but get back together and stay together? Nah.

BGMan
 
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Ricky

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"Also, attraction is not all there is to it. Rapport is important too. Revealing very little about yourself is shady and breaks rapport. I used to be so paranoid about building rapport and kept girls at an arms length in order to be more mysterious. Totally backfired. "

This is very interesting. I held a girl at arms length recently for the first couple of dates and she called me out on it.
 

Ricky

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Doc Love talks alot about once interest level drops there is no going back.

I think that this is true in most cases, but I don't like to hear it regardless.

I can't tell you how many times I have had a girl with high interest in me and it quickly fades.

Seems like I do well meeting them and going out for a while but after a while it is all lost.

But the good part about that is, the girls who lose interest in me are also the ones I have lost some interest in and alot of times I am just reluctant to call it quits as soon as they are.
 

AlwaysExcel

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Originally posted by AlwaysExcel
Then when the girl flakes, he says that she wasn't sufficiently interested in you so it's good you aren't wasting your time with her. BullShyt.

Originally posted by BGMan
Why is that "BullShyt"? If she ain't feelin' you, you're probably wasting your time. Duh.

BGMan
BGman, it's BS because lack of sufficient interest is not permanent. Doc Love wants you to go interact for a limited amount of time and "be light and funny." As far as I understand him, three things contribute to her interest level: her physical attraction to you, the challenge created from spending a limited amount of time with her, and you not doing anything to tank her IL.

When an attractive girl gets approached by lots of attractive strangers, physical attraction doesn't matter as much. It's necessary but not sufficient. So attraction has to be increased in other ways, like conveying a cool personality. Sure, a high IL from physical attraction is cool, but that doesn't happen often ime.

If there isn't sufficient attraction, then there is no challenge, regardless of how unavailable you are. She's not wondering about why you haven't called. This sounds similar to DL but it's not. Sufficient attraction depends on your skill, not your looks.

All I'm saying is that 20 minutes may not be enough to convey a cool personality. If a girl is not attracted enough by your looks and the small amount of time she spent with you, this does not mean that her IL is set in stone below 49% or whatever. A flake doesn't have to mean that she thinks you're repulsive. It could mean that she hasn't seen how cool you are yet. "Sufficient attraction" is something that can be stimulated.

DL may have some alright principles but his system isn't tight and doesn't properly explain how everything works together. That's why I think he's just lifting a few seduction principles and then writing about them with no personal experience.
 

BGMan

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How I understand it, first you must pass her physical attraction test. Not always; ugly creeps like Dennis Rodman and Seal don't apparently need it to snag hot women (or as Doc would put it, the physical attraction test applies "unless you play in a band"). The thing about being "light and funny" is Doc's way of saying that you need to, as you put it, "convey a cool personality". Being your own cool, funny, happy self.

But I'll admit that Doc Love's "System" is simply common sense written in a manner best for Doc Love himself, and that different guys need to formulate their own systems. This is what I myself seem to be doing now. I'm using Doc Love as a foundation, but tweaking and altering where experience teaches me.

Like I said, he still has problems, and although he may understand himself, it may take others a while to figure out what to do in real life. For instance.

After a bad experience I had (2nd page of Barbillus' post on Ganji games), I pretty much became a Doc Love disciple. I am able to see exactly how I screwed up in retrospect; but also that some things can only be explained by some girls dating you with no interest in staying with you, or whatever. Then there are girls who flirt with you even though, again, she wouldn't actually date you if you were the last man on earth.

After I got burned, I resolved only to ask for girls' phone numbers if they displayed "obvious signs of high interest", since I figured that these girls would be the most likely to get into an LTR with me. Unfortunately, I seemed to be getting only false alarms -- mainly insincere flirts (a.k.a. "attention wh0res"), and married/taken women who were totally comfortable around men. I couldn't figure out what I'm doing wrong. (Yeah, I'm a slow learner.) I asked a woman for advice (no, she's quite reliable) and she told me that my big problem was that girls with high IL aren't necessarily those who show high IL, and that a lot of girls are shy. Doc Love, on the other hand, doesn't believe in female shyness, but he did say that a guy should ask a girl for her # even if she doesn't appear to be interested, and my going "hardcore" was a serious miscalculation on my part. I got more dates when I asked for #s, and no dates when I didn't. Duh. I didn't get an LTR because either I didn't do the dates properly, or I lost interest in her.

Different girls react in different ways. Some giggle at every bloomin' thing you say which isn't totally dead serious. Others, on the other hand, can't be pleased; even if you say something that most girls would find hilarious, these particular ones are pretty much moribund in the humor department. As I see it, after they have a sufficient chance to analyze your personality, the ones who laugh a lot are probably more likely to have an IL above 50% in you than those who don't.

But I found that even this isn't totally accurate. I'm a chemistry lab TA this semester, and I'm grading papers for about 30 different girls (~70% female enrollment in the labs). It's a lab for me in a different way, although I'm not allowed to ask for #s until I'm no longer their TA. Strangely enough, those who laugh more at what I say are, again, NOT necessarily those with actual high IL. Just last Friday, the last lab before the Thanksgiving break, this serious 9 whom I thought couldn't care less about me since she didn't laugh nearly as much as the others actually seems very deeply interested after all, and her friend who is much more fun to play around with seemed to be simply a mere flirty party girl.

Another instance. There's a diner/bar I frequent every so often which has several different attractive waitresses. (Hooters quality, almost.) A couple of months ago, I chatted one up a gorgeous blonde taller than me; my buddies (including one girl) were claiming that she was into me, but when I asked for the #, she said that she couldn't because she was involved with someone else. Although my friends were highly impressed that I actually did that ("BGMan has ballz the size of Texas!") After a few weeks, she apparently asked one of my buddies where I have been for the last couple of weeks. I go in there on Thursdays, and she was there too on two occasions, but she hasn't gone up and talked to me, which led me to suspect that the guy who told me this was playing me for a fool. Duh. Girls are passive, she's wanting me to go up and talk to her, and she's very attractive anyway, which means I can't be a wuss. Although, a few of the OTHER waitresses there seem to display a strange warmth to me. (Kitty Kats Kompete)

Although HERE, Doc Love would say that because I asked for her # and she didn't give it, she has low interest.

BGMan
 

Ricky

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My impression from Doc Love is that he has you give up too soon.

I think I am persistent like alot of our fellow DJ's. Yes I'm highly emotional and get pissed alot but that's only because I want to win at all costs.

I think alot of competitive guys like me work their ass on in their careers and expect a good return in their social life as well. That's why we get a bit frustrated when we encounter resistance.
 

BGMan

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My feeling is that there are times when you should throw in the towel since there are definitely things a girl would do only if she doesn't really want to be with you, and here there is little I can argue with Doc Love.

The only wild card I see is when another guy is in the picture. Girls don't know what they want and might turn down giving their # to a guy because they're already taken, but decide later that they didn't really want to do that after all. But this is not inconsistent with Doc Love, since Doc Love doesn't satisfactorily explain how to deal with girls who wouldn't give you their # because they were actually taken, but you still appeal to them. When they figure out that their IL in their boyfriend isn't as high as they thought (and it can take a little while) they then decide that they like you after all.

Doc Love advises at this point to wait for the woman to approach. Problem is... you guessed it. Most women are passive and want the MAN to approach. Which is why I figure that in the case of this blonde at the diner I mentioned, I have an opening to try again since after all a few months have passed -- and even when I was talking to her the first time she had told me herself that she wasn't planning on staying with him long term (after she turned down giving me her #, I jokingly asked her, "so when are you two getting married?", she answered, "I have no plans for that.").

BGMan
 

Surfboard

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Numbers mean shyt unless you've developed sufficient interest AND rapport. But Doc Love teaches to only spend about 20 minutes with the girl to create challenge. Then when the girl flakes, he says that she wasn't sufficiently interested in you so it's good you aren't wasting your time with her.
AlwaysExcel,

I agree with you on this. This advice would be good for the guy with above average looks, but not for an average looking one.

DL relies only on the girl's physical attraction to you.
I agree with the Doc on this one. As BGMan just mentioned, you MUST pass her Physical Attraction test, or you'll never be anything more than a friend. Even the more respectable girls that have passed through this site have said the same thing.

Also, attraction is not all there is to it. Rapport is important too. Revealing very little about yourself is shady and breaks rapport.
I agree with you on this. The only time I play the mystery thing is when I know that the answer to her question will only scare her away.

Doc Love and co don't even teach about same night lays.
That's true. He mentions that in the introduction part of his book.

I personally screen girls for those I can have a good time with. If they begin to stop giving me a good time, I start to lose interest. I have a better time with girls with whom I have common interests. Also, different girls offer different things. One girl might like to dance to the same music as me and is really sexy, yet she's on anti-depressants. If I was screening her for the perfect mate, I'd have to next her. Since I don't screen for the perfect mate, I can enjoy the good things about her and not get sucked into the bad areas. Enjoy people for who they are, don't try to find the perfect people. For me, trying to find one person with the full package is unnecessary.
The main purpose of Doc Love's advice is (as he says) to keep you out of divorce court. If you ignore her bad qualities and don't take warning to the red flags she's throwing at you now, then you're setting yourself up for trouble somewhere down the line. When that happens, then you'll understand what the Doc was trying to tell you.

If you're not looking to get married anytime soon, then this book is not for you. ;)
 

Tha Realnezz

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Yes,he is correct on most issues.

I don't like the fact that he-or-they(?) have created some sort of marketing scheme with this "Don Juan" nonsense on the message board.

I'm not a hustle-knocker(lol) but I think it's obvious people are being used.

It's almost cult-like with the semantics and theories.
 

AlwaysExcel

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About physical attraction, I'm merely parroting David D and TD here. Passing the physical attraction test simply means that you must be fvckable. But being fvckable does not mean that she wants to fvck you or will go on dates with you, pursue you, etc. Lots of guys are fvckable but women don't fvck them all. So you have to be fvckable and THEN stimulate the woman to actually want to fvck you.

Some guys are physically attractive enough that they are both fvckable AND their looks stimulate women to want to fvck them. Doc Love is weak because he uses these guys and guys with high status as false examples of passing the physical attraction test. "A woman wouldn't flake on James Bond! So if a woman flakes on you, that means she wasn't sufficiently attracted to you" Flimsy logic. See how Doc Love relies too much on the power of looks? An average guy will get UGs chasing him, wanting to fvck, when he uses Doc's system.

A sidenote*** BGman, your experiences are very interesting to me. Thank you for sharing them. I think being fvckable vs. her wanting to fvck you, applies to flirtyness and IOIs as well. A girl can flirt with lots of guys, have fun, and never try to fvck them. Also, she could have lots of guys she wants to fvck but have so many options that only a few dudes seperate themselves from the crowd or a few dudes find themselves in the right situation (or create that right situation).
 

Blue Phoenix

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Doc Love is weak because he uses these guys and guys with high status as false examples of passing the physical attraction test. "A woman wouldn't flake on James Bond! So if a woman flakes on you, that means she wasn't sufficiently attracted to you" Flimsy logic. See how Doc Love relies too much on the power of looks?
Now you knockouted Doc Love!

Always excel Vs Doc love

1 x 0

This post is very good, but I think DL will close this post because those good arguments are showing the system's flaws!!! :eek:
 
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