What's the proper way to enforce boundaries?

[Peaks&Valleys]

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different results.

It's clear from the responses that much of the anti-boundary crew simply do not understand our argument.

The fact their central objection is that we are forcing our girlfriends not to see other men shows this.

They are literally attacking an argument that no-one here is making and that's if they can keep themselves away from the juvenile insults (a sign that you have lost the argument by the way fellas).

El Payaso, if you haven't communicated your expectations to her then I suggest giving her the benefit of the doubt and subsequently having that conversation.

Then once all ambiguity is removed if she slips up again you can confidently and ruthlessly pull the trigger knowing ignorance is no longer an excuse.

The problem is most men who adopt the initial stance of what the boundary crew preach don't have the balls to follow through if she does not meet their expectations.

Sorry, bro. The "anti-boundary crew" understands your argument 100%. And most of us have since day 1. If you would read through some of the threads, then YOU would understand this.

 

[zekko]

Sorry, bro. The "anti-boundary crew" understands your argument 100%.

I think he means Sooly doesn't understand it, which he probably doesn't because he keeps posting the same drivel over and over. For the most part, I don't read his posts because, well, they don't make any sense. And they're repetitive as hell.

Sooly is an odd duck. Most of the anti-boundary crew think that objecting to your girlfriend seeing other men is insecure. Sooly won't tolerate his girlfriend seeing other men, so in that he's really closer to the pro-boundary side (which is my side, because I won't tolerate it either). But he thinks that as long as you never, never, ever discuss it with her, you're okay. But if you bring it up, then you're insecure.

 

[Darth]

I think if you even have to ask a girl not to see other men, that's an insult to the girl, because you're making the assumption that she's low-grade.

Of course, if she is IS low-grade and you're still interested, that's unfamiliar territory for me and I have no comment.

 

[zekko]

I think if you even have to ask a girl not to see other men, that's an insult to the girl, because you're making the assumption that she's low-grade.

Remember though, we're talking about supposed male "friends" here, or what some here might call AFC orbiters. It's not as cut and dry as you might think.

I think in general, the younger the girl, the more likely she is to want to have male friends. This may even be completely innocent in itself. However, it sets a bad precedent where if she is ever curious about some dude, all she has to do is say he is a "friend" and you can't say anything about it (according to the feminine sympathizers anyway).

 

[sylvester the cat]

Most of the anti-boundary crew think that objecting to your girlfriend seeing other men is insecure.

Sooly won't tolerate his girlfriend seeing other men, so in that he's really closer to the pro-boundary side (which is my side, because I won't tolerate it either). But he thinks that as long as you never, never, ever discuss it with her, you're okay. But if you bring it up, then you're insecure.

Let us agree that if you object to something it is because you are not happy with it.

You are not happy with it because it doesn't make you feel secure. It makes you feel insecure. In and of itself not a bad thing - just a state of mind reminding YOU of your own personal boundaries and limitations.

With this in mind:


The anti-boundary crew think that verbally expressing their objections/insecurities to their girlfriend seeing other men will make them appear insecure/unattractive to their girlfriend. They are afraid she will not find them attractive and thus not adhere to their boundaries and leave them because they are afraid of being alone. It is this deeper, underlying fear/insecurity that overrides their fear of appearing insecure.

The pro-boundary crew not realizing that their objections are in fact also their insecurities have no qualms verbally expressing them and appearing insecure because they are secure enough in themselves to risk losing the girl if she does not adhere to their boundaries. They do not fear being alone.

Conclusion:

Those who appear Alpha on the outside are more likely to be Beta on the inside.

 

[Peaks&Valleys]

I think if you even have to ask a girl not to see other men, that's an insult to the girl, because you're making the assumption that she's low-grade.

Exactly! Why would you ever be with a woman that needed boundaries, and therefore is perceived to be low grade? And what does that say to her: "I think you might cheat on me if you have the chance, but I'm still willing to get into a relationship with you." It's all around unhealthy to have to verbally set those boundaries. Where's the "trust"?? Can't trust her? Then why are you getting into an relationship with her??

Let us agree that if you object to something it is because you are not happy with it.

You are not happy with it because it doesn't make you feel secure. It makes you feel insecure. In and of itself not a bad thing - just a state of mind reminding YOU of your own personal boundaries and limitations.

Good synopsis.

The anti-boundary crew think that verbally expressing your objections/insecurities to your girlfriend seeing other men will make them appear insecure/unattractive to their girlfriend.

But this^ is a direct contradiction to what you just said.

They are afraid she will not adhere to their boundaries and will leave them because they are afraid of being alone. It is this deeper, underlying fear/insecurity that overrides their fear of appearing insecure.

And so is this^. And it couldn't be further from the truth.

I am not afraid to be alone at all. That is one of the reasons adds to my "state of mind" of not having to set boundaries. I can walk away at any time if she gets out of line. I don't need "rules" for myself or for her to let me know when it's okay for me to leave her.

 

[sylvester the cat]

But this^ is a direct contradiction to what you just said.


And so is this^. And it couldn't be further from the truth.
.

How is it a contradiction?

 

[Soolaimon]

I think he means Sooly doesn't understand it, which he probably doesn't because he keeps posting the same drivel over and over. For the most part, I don't read his posts because, well, they don't make any sense. And they're repetitive as hell.

Sooly is an odd duck. Most of the anti-boundary crew think that objecting to your girlfriend seeing other men is insecure. Sooly won't tolerate his girlfriend seeing other men, so in that he's really closer to the pro-boundary side (which is my side, because I won't tolerate it either). But he thinks that as long as you never, never, ever discuss it with her, you're okay. But if you bring it up, then you're insecure.

You're the one posting the same drivel with the boundary crew.

All you guys live in a world of black and white fantasy.

You guys all think men who set boundaries are strong men of authority. Men who don't set boundaries are all weak.

That's the black and white world you live in and you drone on and on about it.

It doesn't occur to you guys that boundary setters can be insecure weak men who are scared to death of their woman hanging out with other men even when she has no intentions of doing so.

It doesn't occur to you that some men who seek authority are really betas trying to have a fake power trip.

Just cause you don't set a boundary doesn't mean you tolerate your woman hanging out with other men.

That's the black and white world of the boundary crew. Thinking everything in life is the same.

I feel that women should already know what is acceptable for a relationship.

I don't need to waste my time teaching, training, enforcing rules like father.

If they don't show me through their actions that they understand what an exclusive relationship means they don't get a relationship from me.

There are too many low quality disrespectful women who won't care about your boundaries you set.

They will agree to them at the start and will break them with ease when they want to.

If you guys had real experience knowing women you would all understand this .

I've hooked up with taken girls and they didn't care about any boundaries their boyfriends set earlier with them.

When their interest was low they cheated on them with me.

For some reason you guys can't understand that.

You think if you set boundaries she will always follow them no matter what respecting you.

That is not true cause she will break them when she wants.

When women are showing you through their own actions that they don't need other men that is a woman who gets it and doesn't need to have a boundary.

You guys can't understand that either.

Boundaries aren't everything. You need to have value and attraction from her or your boundaries won't work.

When you have value and a respectful woman you don't need a boundary.

You guys don't understand that either.

 

[Peaks&Valleys]

The constant worry by your camp is this fear of appearing insecure.

Stop being a slave to what she may think of you and instead come to realize your intrinsic value to her.

Always with the same arguments.

One last time: I'm not "insecure" when I go into a relationship. In my adult life, I've never felt the need that I had to keep a woman away from other men. Ever. So why would I ever tell a woman she can't hang out with other men?

The reason we point out that it's insecure behavior, is just that, we're pointing it out. We're pointing out how we feel she will perceive it. She might not think so right then, but some time down the road, she will view it that way. Again, just pointing that out to you. It's NOT necessarily the REASON we don't verbally set boundaries. For the most part, we don't set them because we don't need or want to set them. It's not part of our belief system, or like sylvester said: mindset.

But let's break it down further:

Let us agree that if you object to something it is because you are not happy with it.

You are not happy with it because it doesn't make you feel secure. It makes you feel insecure. In and of itself not a bad thing - just a state of mind reminding YOU of your own personal boundaries and limitations.

I feel secure when I go into relationships, and I feel setting boundaries is insecure, so if I were to set them, it would make me feel insecure. Just like I interpreted this statement to say.

Which I thought was spot on, and explained why I inherently don't set them.

However, then you go and say this:

The anti-boundary crew think that verbally expressing their objections/insecurities to their girlfriend seeing other men will make them appear insecure/unattractive to their girlfriend.

Two different things. Feeling vs. Appearing. However, they could work together, but having a foundation of Feeling a certain way, is better than having a foundation based off of Appearing.

No? Yeah? Making sense?

Inner game vs. Outer game

Inner game: I feel secure, therefore I will naturally appear secure.

Outer game: I appear secure, but that does not mean I will necessarily feel secure.

Outer game can work, and it's a starting point for some, but inner game is much much better.

Outer game--->scripted techniques that can be easily thwarted.

Inner game--->Good on the fly, can handle anything that comes their way. i.e. Natural.

 

[Peaks&Valleys]

Ironic as I was actually referencing your comment when making that point.

The fact you summarised the argument as "forcing your gf to stop seeing other men" (see one of your above posts) means you really dont understand. Read over your own posts , understand what it is you're actually trying to say and the argument we're actually making and then come back.

I'm all for critical analysis. Put forward a response that actually addresses the position and then take it from there.

Did you miss what I said here:

Sorry, bro. The "anti-boundary crew" understands your argument 100%. And most of us have since day 1.

 

[In2theGame]

Ah the good ol boundaries thread....

I can tell you right now from my personal experience with countless Girls/Women... Letting them know "Hey if you think im going to let that male friend sh*t slide, you got another thing comin" I am definitely on the boundaries side. My ex girlfriend when i met her, I told her straight out "If you want guy friends, thats fine with me but i dont want a relationship with you and we can be friends" She refused to let me go and didnt even think about crossing me. If i felt i didnt like something... She was going to fvcking know it. One night i was on her bed... a Guy friend she knows calls her phone and she looked over at me and said it was her guy friend. I immediately got up putting my jeans on and she went ballistic asking what i am doing and where i am going. i told her "Didnt i tell you that if any guy friends come contacting you, i was out the fvcking door?" She got on her knees literally and begged me to stay. After that incident guy friends were all gone. As the years went on.. I had loosen up on letting her do whatever she wanted, you know... aloof because i thought she loved me so of course i wasnt insecure or anything.. Long story short.. she was gone with another dude. Was it just this case? Nope....

After her i went on a puzzy craze. meeting and dated so many hot women and my approach to them was all the same with guy friends. You got guy friends and talk with them... get the fvck out of here with that. These were HB8,9's so you would think they would all be turned off by this? NO. Straight from their mouths they would tell me they really love how i "put them in their place" or "Your very manly when you tell me what to do". This is with a sh*t load of women. When you let your Women go hang out with guy friends it sends a message to her that "hmmm, He doesnt mind me hanging with John.... Why isnt he putting me in my place?" because he doesnt want to come off as insecure or controlling lol What a croc of sh*t. Women love a man to steps up to the plate and tell them "this is how its going to go down". Dont be fooled either by the ones who claim they are so independent and confident... When the right guy comes through, they will bend for him in more ways than one. Anyway... To each his own. If it makes you feel good to let your chick do what she wants then thats cool but from my experience its just a very bad way to go.

 

[Heisenberg]

So, you guys planning on losing your virginity soon or...?

 

[sylvester the cat]

I feel secure when I go into relationships, and I feel setting boundaries is insecure, so if I were to set them, it would make me feel insecure. Just like I interpreted this statement to say.
.

Yes but the fact remains both the anti-boundaries and the pro-boundaries object to and thus feel insecure about their women seeing other guys.

The anti crew choose not to show this insecurity whereas the pro crew choose to show this insecurity but for different reasons.

The anti crew are afraid that by showing their insecurity they will appear less attractive and lose the girl's respect whereas the pro crew do not fear this possible loss of respect.

Would not a man with strong inner and thus outer game NOT object/feel insecure about his girl seeing other men perhaps?

Of course you have to take into account there are some girls who would respect a man for setting boundaries whilst some would perceive a man to be weak if he did not so this argument isn't really a clear cut case.

 

[sylvester the cat]

If you object to something then you are not happy about it. You are not happy because you are not secure.

 

[sylvester the cat]

Interesting logic...but where is the objection? I simply lay out my expectations and if the girl doesn't like them she is free to withdraw her attempt at exclusivity.

Would it be insecure if we said we didn't commit to women who do heroine?

You are laying out your expectations in accordance with what makes you happy/secure, no?

I certainly would not be secure committing to a heroine addict for obvious reasons.

 

[TheException]

That's where you're wrong.

I can only speak for myself, but it's not insecurity. Pre-redpill I was an insecure guy so know what that feels like.

For me, it's the assurance of not wasting my commitment on a sub-par woman and in general women who court the attention of men while in a relationship and put themselves into questionable situation like one on one dates with a guy -call it "studying", "going for drinks, whatever - then they are more likely to be low quality.

You can frame it in whatever "fancy" way you like.

Bottom line: You fear women will act inappropriate with other males, were she to be in their presence without you.

The issue is, instead of overcoming this fear and realizing that the majority of the time she IS NOT cheating on you.....you instead seek to prevent the environment in which cheating can occur. The end result is a woman that may(or may not) respect this in the beginning of the relationship, simply because interest is so high. But eventually the more and more insecure you appear with this, the woman loses attraction

i.e.

My ex girlfriend when i met her, I told her straight out "If you want guy friends, thats fine with me but i dont want a relationship with you and we can be friends" She refused to let me go and didnt even think about crossing me. If i felt i didnt like something... She was going to fvcking know it. One night i was on her bed... a Guy friend she knows calls her phone and she looked over at me and said it was her guy friend. I immediately got up putting my jeans on and she went ballistic asking what i am doing and where i am going. i told her "Didnt i tell you that if any guy friends come contacting you, i was out the fvcking door?" She got on her knees literally and begged me to stay. After that incident guy friends were all gone. As the years went on.. I had loosen up on letting her do whatever she wanted, you know... aloof because i thought she loved me so of course i wasnt insecure or anything.. Long story short.. she was gone with another dude. Was it just this case? Nope....

You really think his behavior is the gold standard of what to do? His girl loses attraction....and cheats. And it was not "just this case".

Unfortunately for In2theGame he has his trench so far dug into this boundary thing, that I doubt he will ever get out. He misunderstands the dynamic at play(as do many many others).

But I am curious on another aspect of this....

How old are your girlfriends Danger and Zekko? Now I am fully aware any age you give me could be fabricated in order to discredit the point I'm about to make so I will take your answers with a grain of salt...

If they are close in age to yourselves, it explains a lot why "boundaries work for you". You guys are 40-50 years old. Your girlfriends are "hitting the wall" or have already done so. Their value has dramatically decreased since they were 25. They don't have the ability to pick and choose mates as they once did. They cannot afford to be "picky" or else they run the risk of going their entire lives single.

So where you claim "boundaries work, look at me". I say "Ya.....things are a bit different when the girl is a smoking hot 20 yr old." It's great that it works for your current situation, but for the majority of guys here looking to snag sexy 20 yr olds, your constant advocacy for boundaries(ban on all other men) does more harm than good.

30-40 yr old woman: Doesn't have enough value to reject your boundaries and look for another mate. She is post wall or atleast fast approaching and it's either you and your boundary or the 30 yr old nerd who has no idea how to "lay the pipe" but has a "safe" job.

20 yr old woman: Attractive enough and is still at the peak of her value, that instead of ignoring your insecurities and chalking it up to "your past experiences" she will ditch you for a more attractive male without boundaries.

This whole age point I am trying to make is literally one of the smallest issues with setting boundaries....but interesting food for thought nonetheless. And if your only rebuttal is "hey look, I told you he is scared the woman will find him less attractive".....you failed to understand the point.

 

[sylvester the cat]

Yes. And not being happy committing to a heroine addict does not make you an insecure person - they simply do not meet your standards of a good girlfriend.

This is the exact philosophy of the boundary crew. You just proved our point.

Your standards are a direct reflection of your insecurities. You might not feel insecure today but If you dated a heroine addict you would feel insecure as per your standards and hence why you have standards. No bad thing in itself. Just saying.

 

[Between_The_Lines]

Say you're exclusive with a girl. You've been together for a year and the relationship has carried on swimmingly. Not a single problem since the day you two met. She just gets it. The two of you are on a date at a restaurant one night, and she begins to text a friend. This upsets you, and she takes notice. What does the anti-boundary crew do in this situation? Do they dump her right there on the spot, because setting boundaries is "pointless" and texting during dinner is reprehensible enough that the relationship must be terminated immediately? Or do they draw a bou...

Any behavior the anti-boundary crowd finds disagreeable but not worth ending the relationship over, puts them in a bind - either allow the bad behavior to carry on and stack up, dump her for something petty like texting at dinner (because you have a point to make over at sosuave that you're anti-boundary 'til the day you die), or communicate your displeasure (overtly or covertly, with words or with a scowl) and welcome to the boundary crew you renegade you.

 

[TheException]

And yet Exception your girl is the one "studying" with another guy and currently denying you sex no?

When you repeat what Danger says like a little puppet, why would I take you serious?

Your girlfriend was/is moving in with another man and you sit here and try to lecture me because my girlfriend studied for a test with a guy from class.

I don't care if "well it's London so that's just what people do". I'm more concerned with the lack of critical thinking ability. Can you just not contradict yourself?

People who believe they're right don't automatically resort to insults in order to win an argument.

And here you sit....read your quote above....then this one. Insulting, deflecting, projecting, fabricating. :crackup:

Again....you want to be taken serious and not end up in the likes of PlayHerMan, Danger, and PPRF? Use the brain son.

 

[sylvester the cat]

Now you're simply arguing semantics. If I don't want to date a heroine addict, thief, devil worshiper or a women who wants to date her "orbiters" at the same time as me, this does not make me insecure by my definition of the word (i.e not self confident or assured).




And yet Exception your girl is the one "studying" with another guy and currently denying you sex no?

I have never had this, nor has Danger or zekko and yet surely our girlfriends should have lost attraction for us by now? Do you not see the irony.

You still don't understand the argument and until it's clear you at least understand our point it is useless debating with you.

Communicating boundaries is not about preventing her from hanging out with other men. Take a look at my below post again (bolded for emphasis) and try to actually read what is being said.



Exception, I am not promoting my position as gospel, but when you sit here and try to suggest that anyone who disagrees with your position is insecure, you give yourself away. People who believe they're right don't automatically resort to insults in order to win an argument.





PS - my girlfriend is a hot 21 year old who swallows and has no issue with my boundaries. In fact she agrees with them. That's when I knew I had a girl who was on the same page as me. Ah but that doesn't fit into your distorted view of the world. Oops!

not wanting to date a heroine addict does not make you an insecure man, you are right. But if you did date one you would then be insecure. A heroine addict would bring this out in you. You are not immune to insecurity unless you can relinquish your standards without fear.

Semantics are the only thing that bridges the 'real' world and our consciousnsess.