What is this "taxation is theft" meme I read from american users on twitter?

[Pierce Manhammer]

Libertarian socialism: because nothing says 'I love freedom' like dreaming of a world where everyone agrees to share their toys. It's like wanting to run free in a field of flowers, but making sure the field is collectively owned and everyone has equal access to flower sniffing. A beautiful ideal, marred only by the pesky need for humans to, well, be humans.

 

[Pierce Manhammer]

Hard pass. What a timesuck.

I'm throwing away all my papers and crossing into Jacumba, CA illegally for a massive payday and superior benefits. It's a lot faster and easier than having to uselessly deploy with your presh 1st Fairytale Woke Joke Div soyboys to stupid, far-off places for months on end. True (modern day) story. Call me an Uncle Juan for all IGAF.

Are you a combat veteran? Didnt think so.

 

[Millard Fillmore]

If you take money from someone without asking, that's theft. Ergo taxation is theft.

Now you can make the argument that by participating in democracy, the governed have consented to this. Obviously not all who are taxed participate.

Note that a lot of tax increases and new taxes came about to pay for expensive government wars. This year twenty percent of your taxes go to the defense budget. But yeah, roads and tunnels right? Lol.

 

[AttackFormation]

Libertarian socialism: because nothing says 'I love freedom' like dreaming of a world where everyone agrees to share their toys. It's like wanting to run free in a field of flowers, but making sure the field is collectively owned and everyone has equal access to flower sniffing. A beautiful ideal, marred only by the pesky need for humans to, well, be humans.

Historically, every major anarchist/libertarian socialist movement was caught between the bolsheviks/communists on one hand and conservatives/fascists on the other and crushed by them. Namely the CNT-FAI in Revolutionary Spain, Makhnovia in Ukraine, and KPAM in Manchuria.

 

[Pandora]

It originates as an ideological meme from right-libertarianism. In USA they would just call it libertarianism, because Murray Rothbard and his pals captured that word from anarchists (libertarian socialists) that it originated from.

Their argument is that a government threatens you with force if you dont pay your taxes, so all taxation is theft. It's easy to show that argument is nonsensical with their ideology's own logic, because the government doesnt force them to stay there, so if they dont like it they can just move. Just like they would tell a tenant or worker to do. If they dont want to do that, then under their logic that means they "prefer" the current government, so their complaint is hypocritical. If theyre technically free to move but say they lack the means to do it, for example because there is no more land on Earth to create their country, or they lack equipment. Then they affirm the validity of positive freedom, but their ideology is supposed to reject that and adhere to negative freedom, so it would again disprove their ideology.

I doubt the typical enjoyer of that meme thinks that far about it though. And many people likely just mean that the government is wasteful, but "much taxation is wasteful" is a completely different point than "taxation is theft".

What if the mafia came to your home and forced you to pay taxes for protection and some services. They say that if you refuse you are free to leave. If you stay does that mean that you prefer the mafia?

Just an honest question. You do seem to know alot about the history of the current libertarian movement so thats cool.

 

[Pandora]

"taxation is theft" is a meme because of the amount of public spending that is thrown away on worthless trash.

Argentina is a great example of this. Now that Milei is in power, they've gone from a fiscal deficit to a surplus in a matter of months by tearing out a bunch of expenditure on worthless garbage like the ministry of Diversity Equity and Inclusion and the ministry of women. They found that a full half of the community kitchens that helped to feed the poor didn't even exist, and that those kitchens that did exist were over-declaring their needs TEN FOLD and then spending that money on the lowest quality food they could find when they're supposed to buy high quality food. Where does all the surplus go? Right into the pockets corrupt government officials and their friends.

There is no problem with taxation when the money is spent responsibly, but the US government spends money like a low-IQ moron. Racking up debt for short-term gains with no regard for the long-term disaster that is being built.

Yeh ive heard some interesting things about Argentinas new libertarian president. I will have to research more.

I agree with you bro. No one would complain if our overlords were atleast benevolent. Atleast they can make us comfortable. Instead they spend money on pet wars and wasteful govt projects.

 

[AttackFormation]

What if the mafia came to your home and forced you to pay taxes for protection and some services. They say that if you refuse you are free to leave. If you stay does that mean that you prefer the mafia?

Just an honest question. You do seem to know alot about the history of the current libertarian movement so thats cool.

The difference is that the mafia is outside the law, whereas right libertarians argue strongly for private property rights. So under their logic, you could see the country as the private property of a government. Just like right libertarians say a corporate piece of land is a private property of that corporation and you have to obey their laws on it. Therefore under their own logic, the government cant be invading your property rights as long as it acts within the official law, because you are a tenant/citizen of the government's property (the land/country).

If they dispute that in some way then they are disputing the validity of private property, which they cant do because it's a cornerstone of their ideology. So such an example actually proves the tyranny of living under a regime of completely privatised properties and institutions, and negative freedom, when you think about it.

 

[EyeBRollin]

The issue with taxes is that it is taken by the threat of violence. The other issue with taxes is that corruption and mispending will ultimately take over.

No, this is a fallacy. Corruption is a separate issue. We cant say anarchy is a better model because people will “ultimately just break laws.”

It is possible to come together in small groups of 150 to 200 to build houses and roads etc. This is what we have been doing since before we formed the nation state ( for millions of years).

Do the Amish need taxes? No. They pool their labor together. Do the Aboriginal tribes need taxes? No. They all come together and help each other.

This taxes thing is just an outgrowth of the agricultural revolultion which led to kingdoms and nation states. Its a scam.

Then do it. Go to another land and build a more prosperous society with 200 people.

We should be grateful that our overlords bless us with the bare minimum. We should be grateful that medical bills are the # 1 cause of bankruptcy in the USA. We should also be grateful that we have some of the worst infrastructure of any industrialized nation.

What you are describing is a slave mentality. The rulers should be grateful that WE let them stay in power. This is our money. Not theirs. You dont have to be grateful for shyt when you are paying for it.

No, humility and outlook are worldview choices. We are blessed to live in America. You are free to disagree and can take it for granted if you so please.

It’s amazing that you are complaining about having bad health care and infrastructure, yet saying we shouldn’t be forced to pay taxes in the same post. Can’t make this shvt up!

 

[Pandora]

The difference is that the mafia is outside the law, whereas right libertarians argue strongly for private property rights. So under their logic, you could see the country as the private property of a government. Just like right libertarians say a corporate piece of land is a private property of that corporation and you have to obey their laws on it. Therefore under their own logic, the government cant be invading your property rights as long as it acts within the official law, because you are a tenant/citizen of the government's property (the land/country).

If they dispute that in some way then they are disputing the validity of private property, which they cant do because it's a cornerstone of their ideology. So such an example actually proves the tyranny of living under a regime of completely privatised properties and institutions, and negative freedom, when you think about it.

Force is the basis of property rights. Wouldnt it be safe to argue that goverments are also outside the law? Who determines who owns what property? Before the USA govt was established there were native populations on the land. Heck before any govt was established ever they had to kick off/ murder the native populations.

I am along the lines of tribal societies who believed that you cant own land. Mother earth is for everyone. I believe the we messed up when we transitioned from a nomadic lifestyle to an agricultural lifestyle. Land ownership is impossible in the more nomadic lifestyle.

 

[Pandora]

It’s amazing that you are complaining about having bad health care and infrastructure, yet saying we shouldn’t be forced to pay taxes in the same post. Can’t make this shvt up!

You think taxing people more will make healthcare in America better? Lol....yeh good luck with that. Just throw more tax dollars at a problem. That should fix it.

Federal taxes are a scam. Local taxes do much more good. Federal taxes mostly go to corruption.

Im blessed to live in America you say? Yeh a country were the average person cant come up with $500 cash in case of emergency. A country where you have to work more hours than the Japenese. A country where women dont even want to have families with the men. Im so blessed. Thank you for reminding me.

 

[Pierce Manhammer]

Do what anyone that feels the way you do:

1. lead the change
Or
2. Vote with your feet and move to a place you consider better

 

[Pandora]

Do what anyone that feels the way you do:

1. lead the change
Or
2. Vote with your feet and move to a place you consider better

This is true. Me ranting aint gonna do anything. Complaining makes me feel like im making a difference but im not. Im too cowardly to do #1 so I will prob just end up doing option #2.

I always feel guilty when I hear the terms " home of the brave" in the anthem. Lately Americans have been anything but brave.

 

[EyeBRollin]

You think taxing people more will make healthcare in America better? Lol....yeh good luck with that. Just throw more tax dollars at a problem. That should fix it.

Not even a hypothesis; it is proven. America spends the most in the developed world on health care for below average life expectancy. I know US health care system a joke. That’s why we should have single payer. Higher taxes are a more effective use of health care spending than the current model of private companies stealing your premiums while refusing to pay for coverage. At least the government has an incentive to negotiate on the patients behalf.

Federal taxes are a scam. Local taxes do much more good. Federal taxes mostly go to corruption.

You don’t actually believe this. Federal taxes pay for the military (the country’s biggest job program), highways, and redistributing money from the wealthy states to poor states.

Im blessed to live in America you say? Yeh a country were the average person cant come up with $500 cash in case of emergency. A country where you have to work more hours than the Japenese. A country where women dont even want to have families with the men. Im so blessed. Thank you for reminding me.

At this point it just mindless ranting. Vote with your feet. Start that society of 200 people that you think is better than paying taxes.

 

[Millard Fillmore]

No, this is a fallacy.

No, he is correct. If you don't pay your taxes, eventually you will be subdued by threat of force. This is a fact of enforcing any law in a democratic society, the "majority" enforces its will through the threat of violence by the state.

I don't have an alternative solution, just calling it like it is.

 

[EyeBRollin]

No, he is correct. If you don't pay your taxes, eventually you will be subdued by threat of force. This is a fact of enforcing any law in a democratic society, the "majority" enforces its will through the threat of violence by the state.

It is not force, you have the choice to leave. Many do. Living in such countries, are agreeing to contribute to society. If taxes are voluntary the whole thing doesn’t work.

 

[Millard Fillmore]

If taxes are voluntary the whole thing doesn’t work.

"This thing of ours."

 

[Millard Fillmore]

It is not force, you have the choice to leave. Many do. Living in such countries, are agreeing to contribute to society. If taxes are voluntary the whole thing doesn’t work.

I'm simply talking about staying and choosing not to pay taxes. Laws are ultimately enforced by bayonet. As far as I know compulsory taxation exists in every country.

 

[Dr.Suave]

5 pages. Cool. I always remember this scene from Parks and Recreation:

“This is your lunch,” Ron says to Lauren as he empties her lunchbox onto the table.
“Now, you should be able to do whatever you want to with this, right?”
Lauren nods.
“… But here I come, the government,” Ron says, picking up her sandwich and chomping into it. “And I get to take 40% of your lunch,” he says as he shoves a handful of her chips into his mouth and washes it all down with a slurp from her juice box.
“And that, Lauren, is how taxes work,” Ron concludes.

 

[EyeBRollin]

5 pages. Cool. I always remember this scene from Parks and Recreation:

“This is your lunch,” Ron says to Lauren as he empties her lunchbox onto the table.
“Now, you should be able to do whatever you want to with this, right?”
Lauren nods.
“… But here I come, the government,” Ron says, picking up her sandwich and chomping into it. “And I get to take 40% of your lunch,” he says as he shoves a handful of her chips into his mouth and washes it all down with a slurp from her juice box.
“And that, Lauren, is how taxes work,” Ron concludes.

It is an incredibly silly and disingenuous analogy. Lauren didn’t grow or hunt for her food. Someone else did it for her. She bought the groceries in the market. More accurate would be, “this is my cut for building the infrastructure- the water that allowed that food to be grown, the roads that allowed it to be delivered to the market, and that you drove your soccer mom wagon vehicle on go buy.”

 

[AttackFormation]

It is an incredibly silly and disingenuous analogy. Lauren didn’t grow or hunt for her food. Someone else did it for her. She bought the groceries in the market. More accurate would be, “this is my cut for building the infrastructure- the water that allowed that food to be grown, the roads that allowed it to be delivered to the market, and that you drove your soccer mom wagon vehicle on go buy.”

I doubt the kind of person who really believes that analogy has the brain capacity to understand what youre saying, honestly.