What Advice Would Give

[Sinistar]

My wife's good friend finds herself in a ever more stressful situation. Her friend has been married almost 10yrs now. They are both in their mid 30's, no kids, no substance or gambling problems and no infidelity (which we both believe). My wife's friend is hot (slender, fit and very attractive) and always fun to be around. She's college educated, white collar job and probably earns about $75K year.

Now comes the wrench.

The husband is basically the inventor, junk collector type. They own (are paying on) two houses, neither is anything big or exotic. The one they don't sleep in is not occupied by anyone else, it is basically a storage space. And it is entirely filled with his "stuff".

A typical week for them goes something like this. She goes to work M-F, 8-5. He stays at home surfing the web looking for "deals" on Ebay, Craigslist, etc. Once in awhile he sells something but most often he buys something because it's such a good deal. Hence more stuff is coming in than leaving. If I had to guess, he might show about $10K per year of income. However, given their overall bills, her income is paying both their mortgages and she's covering all health care.

As you can guess, after years of this she's stressed and sees no end in sight. I will add this he is a more possessive type, wondering where she's at, etc. However, he's not full scale - I'd put him at about 6/10 on that scale where most guys are closer to 3-4 with DJ's would be a 1.

What makes it interesting is the sort of reversal here. She's paying for everything. He's at home just doing his thing. Both of their traditional roles are kindof reversed. I'm sure her bio-clock is ticking louder now thus these past few years the situation has become more stressful. And she's learned there is no swaying him or getting him to see things different regarding his career, selling or renting the second home, having kids, etc. She wants to start saving up some emergency money but he goes off telling her how it's a waste of money given the looming inflation, poor interest rates, (blah, blah, blah). Basically, that was a simple example of how he sees and run things.

So if you felt it was important enough to give advice, to whom and what would advice would you give? I know where I stand but I'm curious as to other inputs and thoughts on the matter from the MM guys on the forum.

 

[boxingguy]

My wife's good friend finds herself in a ever more stressful situation. Her friend has been married almost 10yrs now. They are both in their mid 30's, no kids, no substance or gambling problems and no infidelity (which we both believe). My wife's friend is hot (slender, fit and very attractive) and always fun to be around. She's college educated, white collar job and probably earns about $75K year.

Now comes the wrench.

The husband is basically the inventor, junk collector type. They own (are paying on) two houses, neither is anything big or exotic. The one they don't sleep in is not occupied by anyone else, it is basically a storage space. And it is entirely filled with his "stuff".

A typical week for them goes something like this. She goes to work M-F, 8-5. He stays at home surfing the web looking for "deals" on Ebay, Craigslist, etc. Once in awhile he sells something but most often he buys something because it's such a good deal. Hence more stuff is coming in than leaving. If I had to guess, he might show about $10K per year of income. However, given their overall bills, her income is paying both their mortgages and she's covering all health care.

As you can guess, after years of this she's stressed and sees no end in sight. I will add this he is a more possessive type, wondering where she's at, etc. However, he's not full scale - I'd put him at about 6/10 on that scale where most guys are closer to 3-4 with DJ's would be a 1.

What makes it interesting is the sort of reversal here. She's paying for everything. He's at home just doing his thing. Both of their traditional roles are kindof reversed. I'm sure her bio-clock is ticking louder now thus these past few years the situation has become more stressful. And she's learned there is no swaying him or getting him to see things different regarding his career, selling or renting the second home, having kids, etc. She wants to start saving up some emergency money but he goes off telling her how it's a waste of money given the looming inflation, poor interest rates, (blah, blah, blah). Basically, that was a simple example of how he sees and run things.

So if you felt it was important enough to give advice, to whom and what would advice would you give? I know where I stand but I'm curious as to other inputs and thoughts on the matter from the MM guys on the forum.

He's OCD. He's got obsessive compulsive disorder. He's trying to fill a void in his life and the collecting junk is a temporary way to fill it. He needs professional help. No joke. Just like a drug addict or alcoholic gets theirs his constant buying and storing of things is a temp fix. He needs to seek treatment but will probably not and deny he has a problem. He DEFINATLEY has OCD.

 

[DJDamage]

So if you felt it was important enough to give advice, to whom and what would advice would you give? I know where I stand but I'm curious as to other inputs and thoughts on the matter from the MM guys on the forum.

I wouldn't interfere in the marriages of others especially since all I heard was "her side" of the story and not his.

You are the one that is going to get blamed if your advice backfired and your wife's friend quality of life goes down as a result.

 

[Sinistar]

If she wants to save money, she can do so easily in a protected manner by investing in gold.

It's inflation proof so the husband has no argument ther.

Hey, that's not bad!

She needs to take charge and start cutting expenses everywhere, if that impacts him then she should tell him to get a job.

The first half of your response is good medicine as he has no reason right now to have to earn more money, he keeps getting fed, laid and money/time to acquire more stuff. The second half is more difficult. As I understand it, she has asked him to take a job more times than she can recall. He just believes in his "stuff" and that he's going to eventually invent something and make them rich. In a way this is the meat of the question. What should a woman do when the guy isn't pulling his end of the bargain. The old fashioned marriage folks say for better or worse. Maybe the anti-marriage people will find this amusing as the roles have been switched Or, how long does a person endure stress before giving up on a marriage. Or better yet, if she got a lawyer and got divorced maybe he'd get alimony!

I would also get that junk out of the spare house and start renting it out, that can be a great source of additional income.

This is one of the biggest stressors (you can see it in both of them when out together and the topic comes up because everyone one each side is always asking). He just can't process this request and the logic of it. To him the "stuff" in the house is probably worth more than the house. And, with nothing financially at state (ie her salary covering all bills) he probably senses no real urgency or stake in selling it. My guess is that suggesting this is like telling an Alcoholic that they'd have more money if they stopped drinking. Although logical and correct, there is some other kind of barrier keeping them from actually realizing it.

What I find interesting - she's hot. She could easily find a DJ or AFC who's got money and would completely reverse what she's experienced for the last 10 years. Now, if I thought this guy was alpha I'd give him the credit. But, within 15min you know he's not.

 

[jophil28]

What I find interesting - she's hot. She could easily find a DJ or AFC who's got money and would completely reverse what she's experienced for the last 10 years. Now, if I thought this guy was alpha I'd give him the credit. But, within 15min you know he's not.

Obviously she is a woman who takes her marriage vows seriously and will not cut and run if or when a BBD comes along. And believe me, if she has worked as a professional in a corporate environment for a few years she has had a temptation or two offered her.

Sinistar, how do you envisage delivering some sage advice. To him ? To her in private? To them as a couple?

 

[piranha45]

If he's not a DJ but she's still treating him like a DJ, then she must be biologically defective. Coupled with his own biological/cultural defectiveness, they just sound like two defective people in an unexpectedly sound relationship. Why bother trying to "rescue" either of them? They don't need it.

 

[Mr. Me]

What you've described is a road to divorce. Sooner or later, odds dictate that's where they'll end up. She'll stay long enough to build enough resentment to make her decision final without regret. She's already going through the "I've told him to get a job many times" stage and she'll get to the "I tried everything but nothing worked" stage eventually.

He's the one neglecting her, acting controlling, and not keeping up his end of the relationship. Really, if she wants to keep the marriage going, the only thing she can do is give him incentive to change and be more attentive. And she'd need to do that by withdrawing herself and otherwise shaking things up some. Act as if something else is going on in her life. Go out with her GFs and put on a new perfume. Change her patterns. That's the only advice I'd give her. Talking to him isn't going to work any better then it already has.

Him, OTOH, I have the feeling any advice you may give will be summarily dismissed.

But when she leaves him, he'll come crying to you.

 

[jophil28]

They are headed for the divorce court eventually or at least a brakeup to shake him up...
He is making the mistake of thinking that he can do what he WANTS rather that what he needs to do.

 

[backbreaker]

'm that same guy. I'd probably jump off a bridge before I had to put on a suit and work for someone else 9 to 5. the only different is that I was/am somewhat successful at what I do and he ovbiously isn't or he hasn't found his niche yet.

I have no love for women/men who pretend like they are suprised at who their partner is. you knew this guy was a serial entrapernuer when you were fvcking him incollege. it didn't just start. it never just starts.

she didn't find it objectionble then. it's like people who marry people with bad credit, then complain becuas they can't afford **** or buy ****.

my old oneitis that broght me here, has the ****tiest credit i have ever seen, se emailed me about 2 week ago telling me how she was and how they can't buy the house they (her and her new husband) want becuase she can't put hernam on the papers her credit is so bad.

there is more to marriage than fvcking and talking. youare one with this person. she wanted more stablity. if she wanted more stability she should have married someone that had more stable ambitions. you can't blamethe guy for being him.

there is nothing wrong with going on ebay trying to find good deals. hedoes not nee to "grow up". the problem is that what he is bringing to the tale s not what she wants at this time. and that' her problem, not his.

that's my opinion.

 

[Sinistar]

I wouldn't interfere in the marriages of others especially since all I heard was "her side" of the story and not his.

I'm not big on interfering and most likely won't. However, the last part quoted above is ironic in a way as we have thousands of posts (yes, primarily from guys) and we never hear "the other side" yet we give advice. Is it different somehow because we haven't heard the guys side in this case? Not that it's a big deal, but just curious.

You are the one that is going to get blamed if your advice backfired and your wife's friend quality of life goes down as a result.

If I were to get blamed so be it. I'll live. It would just be advice. Usually people don't take it (or take it much later). My guess is that both would be pretty p1ssy but in the end at least one (who knows who though) would be happier.

If he's not a DJ but she's still treating him like a DJ, then she must be biologically defective. Coupled with his own biological/cultural defectiveness, they just sound like two defective people in an unexpectedly sound relationship. Why bother trying to "rescue" either of them? They don't need it.

Obviously, if she was a take no sh!t person she would have moved on by seeing as how she wants change and he will never change.

You are right to the later part, they really do not need rescuing or saving. That is actually their job. I suspect at some point in the next year or so she will have had enough and come asking for advice - possibly sooner - who knows. Rather than parrot one of the two extremes I started wondering what a fellow DJ would advise.

Obviously she is a woman who takes her marriage vows seriously and will not cut and run if or when a BBD comes along. And believe me, if she has worked as a professional in a corporate environment for a few years she has had a temptation or two offered her.

My guess is that it's a combination of two things, first she does take the marriage vows seriously and I'm sure she has been approached and propositioned way more than once. However, he's also moderately possessive so I think she's one a short leash thus less social time on her own afterwork. The other thing to consider is that someone who is in a relationship with stressors like this - and does nothing - might just want it or need (as another poster described). It's hard to tell which it is in this case. I do know one thing though, this not some woman under the spell of a DJ.

Sinistar, how do you envisage delivering some sage advice. To him ? To her in private? To them as a couple?

Well, it is my belief that walking in or intervening (without being asked for advice or help) is not the right thing to do unless its something really, really serious (think mega substance or gambling problems or violence). I know someone who has intervened before in these lesser cases. In the end the person intervening can look pretty stupid as the other party thinks to themselves "what the fawk is this person doing here in my private business".

Actually, any advice I give will probably be indirect as it is my wife who's primarily been on the receiving end of the more stressed out calls and visits. Thankfully these events are not that frequent, but they have clearly been increasing in magnitude. So then, my wife in turn wonders what I think. And knowing women (or at least my wife) she is just as likely to factor in something I've said as what she's been feeling / thinking herself.

What you've described is a road to divorce. Sooner or later, odds dictate that's where they'll end up. She'll stay long enough to build enough resentment to make her decision final without regret. She's already going through the "I've told him to get a job many times" stage and she'll get to the "I tried everything but nothing worked" stage eventually.

He's the one neglecting her, acting controlling, and not keeping up his end of the relationship. Really, if she wants to keep the marriage going, the only thing she can do is give him incentive to change and be more attentive. And she'd need to do that by withdrawing herself and otherwise shaking things up some. Act as if something else is going on in her life. Go out with her GFs and put on a new perfume. Change her patterns. That's the only advice I'd give her. Talking to him isn't going to work any better then it already has.

Him, OTOH, I have the feeling any advice you may give will be summarily dismissed.

But when she leaves him, he'll come crying to you.

A few posters have mentioned this will probably end in divorce. I actually believe this will happen too. What always chaps me is when you know it's gonna happen, why waste another 7yrs dragging it out. You can almost see it now. As her bio clock ticks past midnight she will have finally had enough and end it. That means she'll end up leaving, never having kids and at best a decent relationship with another guy who maybe has a family. Meanwhile, he'll just remain the "stuff" guy since he has no real reason to take more responsibilities such as earning a fair share of the money. Then, when she leaves him he'll finally get the slap on his face he needed (of finally invent something big), shed all the stuff, make decent $$$, meet a great chick with a couple of kids and cuckold happily ever after. So why waste all this time being unhappy.

What I really find ironic is the reversal of themes we see here every day. In this case, the woman has the career, is the primary provider, isn't happy and puts up with it. It's like she's the AFC guy. And he's sorta like a woman, not really accomplishing much, home all the time, costing more than he's making and being controlling and manipulative.

In theory, if they do get divorced and it gets ugly he could come out pretty good. he'll probably get one house and possibly eveb some alimony as she has been earning so much more, providing health benefits, etc.

Back to the advice question. If I were a counselor, I probably wouldn't be licensed long. If these guys came in with this problem they'd both be shocked. The first thing I would do is tell her she needs to move on. She is clearly expressing a need for a guy who is the traditional provider (like it or not) and hubby just isn't and never will be this person. I would tell her to try and split things as evenly and as amicably as possible as she will soon have a life which is less stressful.

Now to the hubby, I think he'd need to be pointed here after he finds out he's gonna be on his own. He gets the "guys to need to make things" part of being a guy. But he doesn't get the "guys need to provide" part of being a guy. Doing 1 without doing 2 is going to trainwreck every relationship. I think he should experience some quality "alone" time so he can figure out #2 out of necessity because after all he doesn't need to ever "grow up" but when he's on his own he's going to have to pay bills, pay rent. Given just how profitable his current business is I sure hope necessity would give him that nudge he needs to break through.

Oh yeah, and to the topic of her starting to pull back a bit on spending, etc. I just don't think it will work. Heck, maybe some of her friends have told her to have an affair to get him jealous and then threaten to leave if he doesn't start pulling his weight. Funny thing is, that might be all it takes. I do have to give her credit though, she has been crying on a friend's shoulders but she has never played a single game with money or guys or anything like that. Of course she's talked to him about but he just acquires more sh!t, finds more excuses and reasons not to pull his weight, etc. Anytime people start playing games in LTR's you know it's not going to last. People are too damned good at keeping score and getting even.

 

[jophil28]

He gets the "guys to need to make things" part of being a guy. But he doesn't get the "guys need to provide" part of being a guy. Doing 1 without doing 2 is going to trainwreck every relationship.

Hey Sinistar, I think that he is not doing the providing part because she is essential doing that for them both.
He is indulging his beloved "inventor" side because he can. She works corporate street, she earns decent money and pays the bills which allows him to act like a self indulgent child with a parttime hobby which occasionally pays for some gas and groceries.
IF she wants him to stop acting like a big kid she has to first stop acting like the overly responsible parent and remove his freedom to do as he pleases.

That means that she has to start rocking the boat.

 

[slaog]

'm that same guy. I'd probably jump off a bridge before I had to put on a suit and work for someone else 9 to 5. the only different is that I was/am somewhat successful at what I do and he ovbiously isn't or he hasn't found his niche yet.

I have no love for women/men who pretend like they are suprised at who their partner is. you knew this guy was a serial entrapernuer when you were fvcking him incollege. it didn't just start. it never just starts.

she didn't find it objectionble then. it's like people who marry people with bad credit, then complain becuas they can't afford **** or buy ****.

my old oneitis that broght me here, has the ****tiest credit i have ever seen, se emailed me about 2 week ago telling me how she was and how they can't buy the house they (her and her new husband) want becuase she can't put hernam on the papers her credit is so bad.

there is more to marriage than fvcking and talking. youare one with this person. she wanted more stablity. if she wanted more stability she should have married someone that had more stable ambitions. you can't blamethe guy for being him.

there is nothing wrong with going on ebay trying to find good deals. hedoes not nee to "grow up". the problem is that what he is bringing to the tale s not what she wants at this time. and that' her problem, not his.

that's my opinion.

I'm of the same opinion. She knew what he was like before she married him so she can't complain now. Also as has been mentioned we're just hearing her side of the story. The guy could also be doing DIY jobs on the houses and helping out other ways.


If shes making about $75,000 a year then its not like they are badly stuck for money either. Maybe with her progressing in her career she might now feel that her value has risen and his value has stayed the same so now she feels out of his league. It might also be making him more jealous.

 

[guru1000]

If he does not act in the capacity of a Man, which is to provide and provision, then she should walk away from this marriage.

It works two ways gentlemen. If you want a traditional Woman (doesn't appear she is), be a Man.

 

[grinder]

You or your wife can't meaningfully intervene with any advice unless it is specifically requested. Then you lay it on the line and your responsibility ends there with giving advice. Now as friends you should be supportive without taking sides. I'm not following exactly why this warrants so many words, time, and energy on your part. It should not.

 

[Sinistar]

You or your wife can't meaningfully intervene with any advice unless it is specifically requested. Then you lay it on the line and your responsibility ends there with giving advice. Now as friends you should be supportive without taking sides. I'm not following exactly why this warrants so many words, time, and energy on your part. It should not.

As I said in the last reply, I have no intention of proactively intervening - he / she / both would have to ask us for advice first. However, I'm sure she'll be getting together my wife again sometime and will hear how it's progressed and I'm sure she'll ask her advice. My wife listens to what I say (go figure) so I hate to just spout out "she should leave him" because, for all we know she'll think it's good advice (which it probably is) and she might deliver it to her friend when overall, there could be better options. If they did request direct help, believe me I always put it all out there.

I think the reason I posted and some others have responded is that it represents a different case than we are used to here. Usually it's the AFC coming for help. Obviously, we never hear the woman's side whether he's AFC or Alpha. What sort of fascinates me about this is whether this guy is just doing his thing and should be encouraged (typically by inaction) to continue to do his thing versus the more expected, traditional view of a man when it comes to providing.

A few people have weighed in on the fact she knew what he was like before they got married. This is something my wife probably would never think of as women tend to be more emotional and in the moment. But it can not be denied - he was like this earlier, probably always was. She probably believed in him at first and/or didn't think he'd push it this long before having to back down and work for the man.

Back to the topic of rocking the boat. Something tells me it will get rocked eventually. But I'm not one for games, which I think her using financial or emotional or physical manipulation / punishment would be. She's an adult. He's and adult. If she really "wanted to" she would state her needs and be willing walk if they aren't met. Upon hearing it, he can decide whether to give up one thing for another thing.

Here's what I think. They both married just a bit too early. Neither one met enough people to know what doesn't work for them. She took the more conventional role, finished college, got that job and works 9-5. He's the type who will claim or try and get you to believe that he's really smart. Much like the occasional technician who claims he could be the engineer but thinks the physics classes are a waste of time (when really, he just couldn't pass them so he finds a rationalization / justification instead).

Now enter the modern world. If he were to take a real job, it would never match her level of income or position. More importantly, he would see all those jobs as beneath him now. Almost as if he now thinks he can't afford to take a different path now. Combine that with a women who is a bit too passive, enables, is to some degree codependent and is probably ultimately most worried what others would think of her if she finally decides to bail.

Perhaps he needs a bit more necessity (like having to be on his own) to finally mother his invention.

 

[Julian]

put him on that show "Hoarders"

 

[Sinistar]

put him on that show "Hoarders"

LOL this is a real show We never watch TV anymore so I thought you were kidding. I just went to the website and saw clips of an episode where some woman has two houses full of sh!t, the hubby left her and now is hooked up with another guy.

I think I'll mention this to my wife and if she wants to tell her friend about it so be it. They guy will never admit to or think he hoards. But the other party would at least understand how bad it can be.

You know, I can almost understand a woman hoarding. Emotional shopping, things have give them feelings and mean something beyond just financial value. With no alpha guy around they'll just keep going and going.

But a guy going doing this crap. Sick. People have to go and disrepect all their awesome open spaces buy filling it up. They think for some reason and old box full of sh!t from 10yrs ago still might "come in handy". Definitely a disease. It's bad enough when a woman starts doing it but if she's got an alpha guy around, at least she's got a chance. When it's a guy, forget it.

Thanks for the tip dude. I just might have to watch this show!