"Waiting" as DJ

[Colossus]

This is an open forum and I think we need to have the status quo challenged at times. Not everything preached in the manosphere is healthy.

I heartily disagree with the "3 date rule". I used to subscribe to this policy, but it really doesn't accomplish anything other than self-selecting women who will drop panties for a guy they've hung out with 3 times. Of course it selects for high interest, but if you are a mature DJ you are looking for more than just high interest. There is such a negative stigma here about waiting for sex. It's weak, it's AFC, it's too Christian, et al. But what are those criticisms based on?? AFCs who play the waiting game in hopes that they will get some. If you are NOT an AFC, and you are waiting on your terms...it's a whole different ballgame. I don't think there is a magic number of dates or weeks you should wait before sex, but generally I believe the longer the better. It allows you to make clearer decisions regarding her character and background, and assess red flags without the irrational bias of your d!ck.

The obvious caveat here as I said is you need to be the one leading the wait, not her. If she agrees, which any decent woman will, then great. But if she is "making you wait" in an indirect effort to raise her own value or just as a pvssy power play, then you have already lost, because she has something you want and is in complete control. Now conversely, if you deliberately wait 1, 2, or even 3 or more months to lay her (assuming she is passing your other tests), you are creating an iron frame for any future relationship, because you are going about it on your terms while you decide if she is worth the investment. AND, she'll likely see higher value in you because of this if she has a good moral constitution. Of course during this time you should be building some tension by touching her, kissing her, and basically planting the seed that when sex does happen with you it will be amazing.

You cannot go wrong with this approach. I do think it's more of a "mature" DJ approach, because you need to be seeking an LTR first of all, and you need a lot of self-control to pull it off.

There are some obvious questions:

"Wont she see me as sexually weak or effeminate because I'm not escalating every date?" Maybe, but it depends on how you carry yourself. You can convey sexuality without sex. And if she does, do you really want to be with a GIRL who is going to judge you for not screwing her right away?? That's a ho where I come from.

"What if she initiates the sex?" Well, if you give in, you still come out on top, because SHE wanted you so bad that she got aggressive and initiated it. If you somehow manage to NOT give in, well....you are a stronger man than I, lol.

"How long is too long?" That's up to you. I'd say 'too long' is when she starts to doubt that you are ever going to make a move. But I have never, EVER met a girl who objected to waiting for a while.


Try this with your plates. Give yourself a time frame if it makes it easier---say 30 days, or 60 days. If a girl has made it 60 days with you she has probably passed many of your initial screens, so what have you lost? Nothing. You have gained knowledge of her. So what your willy didn't get wet for a month or two. You'll live. Think of it as an exercise in mental fortitude.

 

[Findog]

I agree with just about all of this. There are some women that it is just about impossible to get them to have sex with you by the third date, no matter how alpha you are. These are the kinds of women that make you wait because they don't want to communicate the idea that they are sluts that gave it up too easily. They have been taught by their moms and girlfriends that if a guy is worth his salt he will be willing to abide by her mating schedule. You have to have incredibly tight game to pull a lay within three dates with them, and most guys are not at that level, and I include myself in that. Looking back at my last six notches, all of them gave it up by date #4. My last serious relationship, it was about six weeks from first date to lay.

It's really up to you on how long you want to hang in there and try and make something happen. If I perceive a woman as having LTR potential, I don't mind waiting six or so dates till the bang. If I perceive a woman as not having LTR potential, then I'm out if the bang doesn't happen soon enough.

 

[Findog]

Wow, that's a terrific post. The only thing is you don't want to be waiting for waiting's sake. However if you are truly in frame, and her interest rises, she will abide and you will know. I've had some lame flings because it was almost expected that we have sex on the third date, even though MY interest was lower than hers (in other words, I just wanted a lay). I think if I were single I'd be much more patient today.

I also think there's something to be said for not being a slave to your sex drive. I really enjoy sex, I think most guys do or else they wouldn't be on this site. But if you are this rigid about a 3-date rule because you are afraid of being chumped on and having your time wasted, you'll probably miss out on a lot of opportunities. In the grand scheme of things, is it so terrible to wait another 2-3 dates if you think the girl is worth it? If you're spinning plates and focusing on your mission, sex with women will be a natural byproduct of that. Sometimes we develop tunnel vision. A lot of guys use manosphere teachings incorrectly to make sex with women their mission, instead of having that as a natural consequence to being in control of their lives.

 

[st_99]

it sounds like more "rules" to me, the exact thing you are against only you're doing the opposite.

you've gone from 3 dates to 3 months. both are wrong and silly imo.

 

[Boilermaker]

I disagree with just about all of that.

I think the main premise lies here:

If you are not an AFC, you are waiting on your own terms.

The majority of us approach new women with the full intention of having sex with them.

I can't think of a single reason as to why any man would want to LEAD the waiting game when he decided he's attracted to the girl and would want to have sex with her eventually.

I can imagine there can be complications due to religious background, health issues, kids, trust issues and so on - but they are rightfully exceptions and do not apply to the majority.

If I perceive a woman as having LTR potential, I don't mind waiting ...

Well that's a different point entirely. Not minding waiting is OK - but you realize that it's a concession, not a decision that's made on your terms.

You are basically saying that if she's more of a big fish than I usually catch; I can cling to it a little more than I usually do to others.

That's fine - the point remains that you WANT to have sex with her, and you CAN'T, and you are being held in a position on HER terms.

 

[Findog]

Well that's a different point entirely. Not minding waiting is OK - but you realize that it's a concession, not a decision that's made on your terms.

You are basically saying that if she's more of a big fish than I usually catch; I can cling to it a little more than I usually do to others.

That's fine - the point remains that you WANT to have sex with her, and you CAN'T, and you are being held in a position on HER terms.

Maybe. I could say the point is that I can have sex with her on her mating schedule if my sexual market value is equal to hers. Only if my sexual market value is decisively higher than hers can I probably leverage it to happen on my schedule.

I think the fact of the matter is that when it comes to roughly equal sexual market value, women plainly have more options and relationships typically exist on their terms. They have more leverage. If you don't want to date too far down and want to punch your weight, I don't see how you can avoid making this concession if the woman is philosophically opposed to having sex "too soon," however long that is according to her criteria. A male "7" and a female "7" aren't really that equal. Women can easily date up more than men can. The same dynamic exists if you're a male "5" dealing with a female "5" or a male "8" dealing with a female "8." I think most male-female interactions can be understood through the lens of sexual market value. So many women crow about how "independent" they are and how they won't take any sh*t from a man, but if Pitt or Clooney asked for their hand in marriage that would all go out the window.

I don't think it matters how alpha you are if your SMV is roughly the same. Ice-T is alpha as all get out and this happens:

http://www.examiner.com/article/ice-t-disrespected-by-coco-ice-t-and-coco-photos-go-viral

 

[Colossus]

it sounds like more "rules" to me, the exact thing you are against only you're doing the opposite.

you've gone from 3 dates to 3 months. both are wrong and silly imo.

Read more carefully.

I don't think there is a magic number of dates or weeks you should wait before sex, but generally I believe the longer the better.

I understand not everyone is going to agree with this approach, and that's fine. I expect to see a lot of "alpha-isms" thrown around. I've just personally found this to be more effective in terms of frame and my own well-being than getting her panties off as quickly as possible. I've lived both roles. Screwing women quickly and indiscriminately hasn't made me a better man. Being more discerning in where I lay my wood has.

 

[backbreaker]

this is one of those things that in real life, requires some common sense and some experience in the field to be able to gauge on a case by case basis.

with my wife it took about.. right at a month but that was my doing, i could have had sex wtih her within a week of meeting her if i really wanted to.

i don't consider waiting waiting, i consider it setting the hook. I'm not a child sitting at the dinner table waiting for "dinner" so to speak, in my experience sex is much better/more intense when she has to work for it. When she ahs to convince me that she is worth ****ing, the sex is much better and more enjoyable.

I never **** on the first date i refuse to. Lord knows what the girl might have or what type of ex she might have who knows

but as a rule of thumb, if sex isn't clearly on the table outside of a month, then it's probably time for me to do something else. At a month, i really don't care what your rationale is as a woman at that point.

generally by the end of the 2nd date i know where i stand

 

[st_99]

another problem with this strategy is that desireable women presumably are going on dates with more than one guy as they too are shopping around. While you're waiting 2 or 3 months with your mental fortitude experiment she's already boned one of these guys, gets attached (as healthy girls do) and they are off having a nice relationship while you've officially been forgotten about.

 

[Fatal Jay]

Well Christians actually had it right

When you with hold from sex, you see the real intentions of people come out everytime

If sex is involved it adds a lot of deception and stress to the situation

 

[zekko]

I don't think Colossus is saying you should wait three months to have sex. He's saying there shouldn't be a "three date rule", unless that's something you really want to do yourself.

I'm pretty much against all these hard and fast rules, so I'm going to agree with him. Seduction should be more of an art, and it should be allowed to flex and breathe depending on the individuals and the situation involved. Instead of coming up with a strict number and then applying it across the board.

 

[Fatal Jay]

But how sick would it be if the guy was the one with holding from sex, but yet making all the right movies in other aspects

that would probably blow the girls mind

 

[The Duke]

But how sick would it be if the guy was the one with holding from sex, but yet making all the right movies in other aspects

that would probably blow the girls mind

I tried it once, the girl finally flipped out and got insecure. She wanted to know what was wrong with her, and when I said nothing then she said something must be wrong with me. haha

 

[( . )( . )]

1. Ok I admit it. I like my personal rules though, it gives me a sense of order and accomplishment, "sh!t or get off the pot" as they. I love the 3 date rule. Personally I have never waited past 2 but it's there. I loved it when I first found game and I love it now.

2. Why are we waiting again? I'm a man I'm horny now. This is my reality not hers, she steps into my world or she doesn't.

Of course it selects for high interest, but if you are a mature DJ you are looking for more than just high interest.

Not me, I really am selecting for high interest, if it's not there neither am I.

AND, she'll likely see higher value in you because of this if she has a good moral constitution.

Not buying that either. Even girls with "good moral constitution"and yes I do know they exist (from traditional alpha with a dash of beta father upbringing), can appreciate higher status males and are well aware if they don't play ball by his rules they will miss the boat. It makes no difference either way is what I'm saying. But implying prolonged waiting will trigger her morality meter is nonsense. Women are a blank slate as far as morals are concerned, men and only men are the gatekeepers of morality, women are empty vessels to be filled.

 

[Burroughs]

Waiting is for people without clout

If you are a screenwriter and you have to wait days and days for a call from your agent you have no clout

If you are a novelist on the slush pile you have no clout

If a girl doesn't want to snatch you up immediately and take you off the market you have no clout.

Attraction can't be negotiated.

 

[Scaramouche]

Dear Colossus,
Sorry totally disagree with you,seems to cut across the whole DJ philosophy...I suppose if we take this point of view in context with spinning plates then it is acceptable......I am sure this was not your point of view two years ago and I wonder was there some vision on the Road to Damascus that created this mindchange?

 

[BeDJ]

Men date to look for sex, women date to find a relationship with the best suitor. Of course, this doesn't include the sl*ts, drunken ONS, etc. Women have plenty more options than men do. When women have sex, they have deemed their partner to be worthy. The man is given more value after the deed is done because the woman needs to justify why she gave it up, even if the sex came naturally.

Women are well aware of the double standard, men who have more sex are praised, in contrast, women are disparaged. It is the man's job to escalate her physically and emotionally to the notion that he is the best suitor. Withholding sex is the woman's only strategy to finding the best possible suitor. The three date rule exists because by then, women have already made their decision. Hell, most of the time, they will decide if you are the man they desire after the first date. The man's job is to build comfort on the following dates. Once she finds comfort, sex happens naturally.

 

[Jitterbug]

If there's no significant progress towards sexytime in the first 3 dates (i.e physical escalation beyond making out), I'm out. Else, I can be patient. After all, that's what plate spinning is for. You entertain other options while waiting for one to progress to sexytime. I'm not waiting for months though. My language of love is physical. If she isn't putting out, adios.

If the girl spells out her so-called rule of making a guy wait X amount of time, it's both a boner killer and a clear negotiation for desire, which simply is a waste of time. I'll pass.

 

[scrouds]

Sounds like really effective church game. Make her wait, based on your own moral imperative.

Eventually you will succumb to the torrid sex demon temptress she is and bang her with wonton abandon.

 

[Colossus]

....I am sure this was not your point of view two years ago and I wonder was there some vision on the Road to Damascus that created this mindchange?

Lol yes Scara, you could say that. Perhaps I was mistaken in trying to translate my own moral epiphany into rational language for the forum. I've been much happier with this approach, but to each his own.