Vegetarian

[sangheilios]

Vegans not getting enough protein is a myth. All plants have protein, among a diverse spectrum of amino acids. Protein deficiency happens to people who are malnourished overall. No one eating >2,000 calories from plant-based foods will have a protein deficiency. Legumes in particular are high in protein, and either are complete sources on their own or when paired with grains (hence why half the world eats rice and beans).

The vegan vitamin deficiencies however are real. One of the reasons I still enjoy fish and fat free / low fat dairy.

You missed what I was saying. When we cut out vegan protein supplements, the plant based protein sources you will have are very high in either carbohydrates or fats. Beans are a really good example, they have a lot of protein but also are very high in carbohydrates. Nuts and nut butters have a good amount of protein but are also very high in fat. To get the amount of protein you'd need, assumming you are lifting/exercising, would require you to eat a lot of total calories and many of those sources are not ideal.

Something else you should factor in is gut health. On a vegan diet it is very likely that you will be eating a lot of fiber, it may even be to the point where it's too much. Many of these foods are also difficult to digest and can give you some digestive issues. Beans are a very good example, a great food overall but not something you should be eating large quantities of.

Mineral deficiencies are a real thing though. Things like zinc are not as bioavailable in plant based foods as they are in meat, etc. Side note, there are literally no civilizations in history that were built around pure veganism....something to consider.

I feel some of the benefits of the vegan diet movement are real, though not directly related to the diet itself. One, it generally gets people off of processed foods, including low quality processed meats and dairy. It also encourages people to eat more fruits and vegetables, which is something that most westerners lack. In addition to this, people are eating more fiber, which again is something most people are not getting enough of. It's not rocket science, a diet that is higher in fiber, fruits and vegetables and removing processed foods will make one healthier and feel better. However, I do not believe that there is a reason to fully cut out animal products. Fat free greek yogurt is one of the best protein sources you can get and has very little calories. Fish, chicken and good cuts of meat provide a lot of protein and many nutrients that are limited in plant based foods, and these are in relatively small quantities as well.

I think you get the picture.

 

[EyeBRollin]

You missed what I was saying. When we cut out vegan protein supplements, the plant based protein sources you will have are very high in either carbohydrates or fats. Beans are a really good example, they have a lot of protein but also are very high in carbohydrates. Nuts and nut butters have a good amount of protein but are also very high in fat. To get the amount of protein you'd need, assumming you are lifting/exercising, would require you to eat a lot of total calories and many of those sources are not ideal.

Carbohydrates are in fact, ideal from a physiological standpoint. The recommendated daily allowance of protein is 10% of calories. Legumes and vegetables mostly fall somewhere between 15-30% of calories from protein. Hence, why you won’t actually find protein deficiency in a well nourished adult on a vegan diet.

Now, there is some debate on how much protein is needed for elite athletes. They are a separate category, and should be supplementing or just eating animal foods. The average, moderately active adult will likely be fine.

Something else you should factor in is gut health. On a vegan diet it is very likely that you will be eating a lot of fiber, it may even be to the point where it's too much. Many of these foods are also difficult to digest and can give you some digestive issues. Beans are a very good example, a great food overall but not something you should be eating large quantities of.

If water intake is sufficient, and fiber introduced gradually, I haven’t seen any literature citing an upper limit on fiber consumption. Foods that are high in fiber take long to eat and chew and are satiating. If there actually is a fiber limit, I doubt most people could put down amount of food needed to reach it.

Mineral deficiencies are a real thing though. Things like zinc are not as bioavailable in plant based foods as they are in meat, etc. Side note, there are literally no civilizations in history that were built around pure veganism....something to consider.

What was done in the past does not mean it is optimal. Life expectancy wasn’t always 75-80 years, nor did humans have all the needed vitamin supplements.

I feel some of the benefits of the vegan diet movement are real, though not directly related to the diet itself. One, it generally gets people off of processed foods, including low quality processed meats and dairy. It also encourages people to eat more fruits and vegetables, which is something that most westerners lack. In addition to this, people are eating more fiber, which again is something most people are not getting enough of. It's not rocket science, a diet that is higher in fiber, fruits and vegetables and removing processed foods will make one healthier and feel better. However, I do not believe that there is a reason to fully cut out animal products. Fat free greek yogurt is one of the best protein sources you can get and has very little calories. Fish, chicken and good cuts of meat provide a lot of protein and many nutrients that are limited in plant based foods, and these are in relatively small quantities as well.

The same is true of the Keto / low carb / carnivore crew. Eliminating processed foods and sugar is good. Increasing fruit and vegetable intake is good.

However, Keto / low carb / carnivore will probably raise your cholesterol. It’s harder (though not impossible) to maintain healthy Apo-B on those diets. I’d say that’s a big deal when the top killers in the West are heart disease and cancer.

 

[sangheilios]

@EyeBRollin

You should definitely trust me on this, quite a long time ago I tried to make a vegan diet work as an individual who exercised regularly and it was far more than being simply sub optimal.

This is anecdotal but I will share this evidence.

I switched over to a vegetarian diet with occasional seafood, so ate eggs and greek yogurt, and did not notice a single difference compared to when I was eating meat more regularly. However, when I went over to a pure vegan diet I noticed a change very quickly. One, I noticed that my strength dropped by quite a bit and progress was significantly slower. I also noticed that I didn't recover as well between workouts and that my body fat percentage I maintained at was slightly higher than what I cruised at prior to going on a vegan diet. I also noticed that I had a much lower sex drive, wasn't get nocturnal erections as often, etc. I also noticed that I had much more lethargy and my mental health was not good, I had much higher levels of anxiety.

When I discontinued the vegan diet and went to an omnivore diet, one that wasn't even including all that much meat, all of these changes went away. Without effort I lost that bit of extra fat, made fantastic gains in the gym and was physically much more powerful, etc. After this change I immediately recognized that a pure vegan diet is inferior. Looking back, I attribute all of this to probably having some deficiencies that would be nonexistent on an omnivore diet.

I also will add that protein from beans, rice, etc. does not have the same bioavailability as eating dairy, eggs, etc. Let's say I need over 100g of protein as an avid exerciser, do you realize the quantity of these foods you'd need to consume in order to attain this? If you have a can of beans in your house take a quick look, one serving is around 8 grams of protein......let that sink in.

The thing about digestion is that high fiber foods take much longer to digest and may cause some GI issues for certain people.

I totally agree with your comments about keto, carnivore and all of that other nonsense. Those diets are the on the opposite extreme of the diet spectrum, the take home is that extremes are not the right move. With those diets, what person in their right mind thinks eating a bowl of cherries, a sweet potato or oatmeal would be bad for you? LOL

I also agree with your comments about heart disease and cancer but with a caveat. Americans aren't at risk for these diseases by eating greek yogurt, or salmon or chicken or lean cuts of red meat or eggs, etc. They are at risk for these diseases by eating processed meats, concentrated sources of fat (butter, lard, etc.) as well as processed sugars in things like soda, table sugar, junk food cereals, etc. They also do not eat enough fiber and overall have a very low concentration of real fruits and vegetables, apple juice and iceberg lettuce on a Mcdonald's burger don't count.

My diet is mostly made up of this

- shredded wheat or oatmeal
- fresh fruit + a little dried fruit for post workout
- big salad every single day (mushrooms, spinach, tomatoes, onion, avocado, etc.)
- whole potatoes, no butter or cream
- fat free greek yogurt
- nuts, especially walnuts and pecans
- salmon
- chicken
- ground bison
- eggs

Also include omega 3 fish oils and Vitamin D3

I got my cholesterol done back in November and my total was 138. Does someone need to copy my diet exactly, hell no, but that's a pretty good outline of a solid diet.

 

[EyeBRollin]

My diet is mostly made up of this

- shredded wheat or oatmeal
- fresh fruit + a little dried fruit for post workout
- big salad every single day (mushrooms, spinach, tomatoes, onion, avocado, etc.)
- whole potatoes, no butter or cream
- fat free greek yogurt
- nuts, especially walnuts and pecans
- salmon
- chicken
- ground bison
- eggs

Also include omega 3 fish oils and Vitamin D3

I got my cholesterol done back in November and my total was 138. Does someone need to copy my diet exactly, hell no, but that's a pretty good outline of a solid diet.

Ya, I agree with all those points. My diet before was similar to this here, minus the bison. I only had 3 eggs per week maximum. No processed food, fried food, added sugar. No red meat either except special occasions. My cholesterol was 250. Shvt genetics I guess.

 

[sangheilios]

Ya, I agree with all those points. My diet before was similar to this here, minus the bison. I only had 3 eggs per week maximum. No processed food, fried food, added sugar. No red meat either except special occasions. My cholesterol was 250. Shvt genetics I guess.

Where you overweight? What race are you? And yes, genetics plays a huge role but I'm also very active in addition to eating like this, plus no genetic/familial link to heart disease or anything really.

 

[EyeBRollin]

Where you overweight? What race are you? And yes, genetics plays a huge role but I'm also very active in addition to eating like this, plus no genetic/familial link to heart disease or anything really.

Black. Not overweight. BF % is 10-12, has been for the last 15 years. My cholesterol has always been kind of high. Triglycerides and fasting glucose are low though. Go figure

 

[typical]

i suppose that’s a cool hobby, but I don’t have much need for those skills.



What does that have to do with actually physically killing the animal?

Dude, do you really think you’re levitating on some plane and have some kind of monopoly on masculinity because you can kill an animal?

you think I couldn’t? Neolithic cavemen could kill animals, it’s no achievement and we’ve evolved a couple of hundred thousand years since then.

Selecting an animal is fair enough. If you’re concerned the animal is healthy. I’m happy enough to delegate that to someone else. I’m pretty confident if you buy grass fed the beef is good.

why you would want to actually kill it personally is just a bit weird when there’s a professional who can do it for you. If you think tying up a cow and slitting it’s throat is some kind of achievement or something which is supposed to be pleasant for most healthy people I have a big shock.

I can’t imagine going to a farm to buy beef and the farmer handing me a knife and saying “ would you like to kill it?” And saying “why, yes please”

You haven’t answered why you’d actually want to kill the animal.

i think I can answer: “I am insecure about masculinity and I think it’s something to do with hunting and being able to survive in the wild. I feel if I can kill an animal with my bare hands, it makes me more of a man”

Anyone can kill a restrained animal. This is hillbilly logic. Sorry.

i have the same view generally on hunting or fishing. If you NEED to, to survive - sure. Nobody does in this day and age.

I have no idea why for fun, someone would choose finding animals in the wolf minding their own business and then gratuitously shooting them a form of entertainment.

you see a beautiful deer in your sights in a woodland glade with its mother, foraging on a sunlit day. For your own personal enjoyment, you shoot it in the head or absomen with its mother right next to it, while it lies bleeding out and convulsing you feel a sense of pride and accomplishment.

These things should be done with a heavy heart, for survival, not a a fkin party trick or to post on Facebook.It’s a dirty business, the bad end of nature not something to do with earnest endeavour or even worse, to feel a false pride in manhood.

animals feel pain too. While killing them is necessary to want to put yourself into that role is just a form of sadism. It’s not the act itself but to enjoy it and seek it out - deeply troubling.

Ah ha you're one of "those" people. Also I am qualified to be a butcher, I learnt as a teenager. Also when did I ever say I enjoyed killing as a hobby or sport ? It's a life skill that I have. You're reaching there man.

If I wasn't running my own business in sailing I would easily get a job or even own my own chain of butcheries ..... You've given me a brilliant business idea.

In terms of why I go to my local farm that has an abattoir there is so I can utilise the entire animal and none of it goes to waste and I can get the best quality meat without compromise. It also makes for a relaxing drive for the day and my dogs love the fresh air. If not for my own consumption then it gets dried into chewing treats for my dogs. You seem to have a very skewed view of the world and you went on a stupid rant about masculinity and projected your own ego into the conversation.

 

[FlexpertHamilton]

A very large percentage of Indian people are vegan or vegetarian.

There is speculation that their health and longevity is actually due to their heavy use of herbs and spices, especially turmeric.

 

[BackInTheGame78]

There is speculation that their health and longevity is actually due to their heavy use of herbs and spices, especially turmeric.

Not surprising...spices are some of the most anti-inflammatory foods out there. As they use them nearly everyday in the foods they cook, they are getting a constant supply of anti-inflammatory goodness...

What is interesting however is part of the reason they use such strong flavors and amounts of spices was to help hide the taste of spoiled meat, which doesn't last very long in a country that is as hot as it is year round.

 

[Bible_Belt]

There is speculation that their health and longevity is actually due to their heavy use of herbs and spices, especially turmeric.

Regarding turmeric, from what I read, the preponderance of the health benefits likely come from the long and slow cooking of Indian food. Taking turmeric as a supplement unfortunately isn't the same. The traditional cooking style is key.

Also about Indians who are vegetarian mostly due to economics, it was discovered that they unknowingly get their b12 from insect feces on their greens and vegetables. That's why a billion people can seemingly exist without a required nutrient.

 

[Deranged]

A very large percentage of Indian people are vegan or vegetarian.

This is the outcome of British colonization though. Their pre-British colonization dietary tendencies contained a lot of meat. Yes the cuisine was influenced by Dutch, Swedish, Portuguese, French and the Danes, but not to the extent of the Brits who basically convened them to vegetarianism. Look at their modern vegan powered physical pot belly dad bod prowess now (or lack thereof). They used to look like warriors pre 1600's.

 

[Gamisch]

Vegetarian is totally doable and should not be a challenge at all. The vast majority of my animal based proteins are from eggs and fat free greek yogurt. I do eat meat, I alternate a different type for dinner every day but the portions are honestly nothing at all heavy. I like ground bison, chicken thighs and salmon. I'll occasionally have a nice steak or very rarely will have a hot dog, meat lover's pizza, etc.

Vegan on the other hand is not really something I'd encourage. One, it's not at all difficult to develop some nutritional deficiencies and you will have to rely on supplements, particularly B12. Unless you are taking protein powders, your protein sources will either be very high in carbs or high in fat. It's just not a great diet to have overall and you'll struggle to make it work, not just physiologically but in regard to even just enjoying food.

Interesting. I recently heard that all plants and vegetables contain poison as a defense mechanism against bugs and insects. It's driving me crazy sometimes , to learn that almost everything is bad for us.

My old man worked in the freezing works here in New Zealand. I learnt to cull and butcher animals since I can remember. I've also worked part time in a butchery when I was in my teens. I also know how to hunt, build a fire from scratch and light it without a flint, make deadfall traps and make a simple fishing rod and net ..... amongst a tonne of other survival skills.

Nothing wrong with going to your local farm and knowing exactly where your meat comes from and the health of the animal you're consuming. you sound like a woman "ewwww thats gross and disgusting do you have mental issues you psycho?"

My homie is Arab, and his father always buys a whole sheep , gets a place in a corner somewhere and a butcher knife and goes to town with it. As with everything, knowledge might save you a lotta money. Iirc he even picks a living sheep so he can give it the "halal procedure".

Still a interesting discussion. Your skills are ironically frowned upon, but imo these are basis human skills. It's a shame we as men don't learn it as young boys already. . People can't watch a animal getting butchered but they'll LOVE a big mac or some Kentucky fried crap.

 

[Deranged]

i didn’t know we had pictures of them in the 1600s.

I reckon this is just anti British nonsense. The world can’t keep blaming us for giving them nearly every modern invention.

No we certainly didn't. Thankfully photographs aren't the only way to record history. Maybe that's not adequate enough for you either, considering it's impossible to verify ancient written anecdotes.
The way I see it; they were just so damn capable they set the foundation for almost everything modern. It's typical of their arrogance to still create a disadvantage for others that are inferior. The world is far better off with British than without.

 

[Gamisch]

They should have an IQ test to use this forum, Jesus.

why don’t you convert, you can get yourself a child bride in the process. And cut up as many sheep as you like. You might get to behead someone too.

the absolute lunacy of aspiring to be this primitive, this place is an absolute dump.

What's up @Fruitbat, you good bro? Why are you so hostile, I just give a real life example and anecdote. I dont see what my homie's father has to do with my iq or intelligence. Just saying it's more common than you might think.

Stop acting like a angry woman with blue hair. Are you one of those hardcore vegans or something? Normally your reactions are somewhat nuanced and well worded. Go take a breath and calm your t1ts.

 

[Deranged]

Thank you, and arrogance is justified when you can see, as above, some folks are aspiring to perform ritual killings with a knife whereas others are trying to shine the light on ignorance and darkness.

When the British conquered it mainly resulted in the removal of resources and sovereignty.

In the limited examples of Islamic societies conquering non Islamic ones, they created systems so the young men of the conquered victims were forced to cut of their genitals, and become performers and prostitutes. The women were made sex slaves.

As you say; the world should be damn glad it was the British conquering them as it could be a whole lot worse.

No no. Not justified, just expected. Even when you're on top, unless your mental state is infallible (highly unlikely but possible), you will still be susceptible to insecurities and act upon them. This is expected, given human nature.
To elaborate on this, in the context of British colonization of India. At the time, it wasn't enough that they(Brits) colonized but they also had to permanently unstill properties in the Indian people that would weaken them now, and future generations to ensure they would never surpass them and be competition. The Indian people may have never even had this potential, but the Brits still went through with it, like a contingency plan.

 

[EyeBRollin]

Interesting. I recently heard that all plants and vegetables contain poison as a defense mechanism against bugs and insects. It's driving me crazy sometimes , to learn that almost everything is bad for us.

Who told you that? While it certainly is plausible, many species on earth are herbivores. Our own primate and great ape cousins eat mostly plants as well…

 

[Gamisch]

I don’t mind meat eating, but I despise animal cruelty. Or cruelty to women or children. I consider someone who inflicts suffering on those weaker and unable to defend themselves as vermin, and yes, it does somewhat trigger me.

If any sense prevailed this man should be sent to jail, he’s an inhuman fiend who should receive psychiatric care.

Similarly, cultures which promote this barbarism should not be held in high esteem.

Im sorry if that’s offensive, but if you can’t see why taking a knife and “going to town” on an animal isn’t similar tier to a serial killer, we just can’t view the same issue objectively, and will have to agree to disagree

Oké at least you're honest about it. And I appreciate a man who takes a stand.

Thing is, in order for us (humaity) to get meat in the stores and on our plates, somebody has to do the butchering. At the end of the day we are nothing but mammals. Animals that eat other animals, it's just the circle of life.

Who told you that? While it certainly is plausible, many species on earth are herbivores. Our own primate and great ape cousins eat mostly plants as well…

just an example, this wasn't the video I saw but its similar .

 

[sangheilios]

This isn't really the topic of this thread, but I believe that when I'm older lab grown meat will become a regularly available food item at the grocery store. I don't mean some fake meat products like the impossible burger, etc., but literally where they are growing meat from cells that are created in a lab. This would literally be the same premise as lab grown organs, etc. I believe that this is something that will become mainstream for multiple reasons. One, many areas of the developing world simply do not have the ability to raise animals on a mass scale, this is a combination of local climate, geography, agriculture, available water, etc. I also believe that this may become a thing due to environmental concerns, raising cattle for beef requires substantial amounts of water per calorie grown compared to other foods. We also aren't factoring in the feed for these animals and the amount of land that has to be dedicated for the raising of crops that will be their feed, Alfalfa is a good example. If science somehow allowed meat to be grown in lab, where it tastes the same, has the same qualities, nutrition, etc. all of these environmental, agricultural and water and land resource constraints are no longer an issue.

I'm also not even factoring in the ethical side of things. I personally feel that raising and slaughtering animals is not at all an ethical issue, what is an issue though is the factory farming techniques that are often employed. Many of the cheapest meat products you can find at the grocery store are from animals raised in these conditions.

I encourage all of you to buy the cheapest eggs you can get at a local walmart and then go and try to find some pasture raised eggs, they may have these at wal mart as well. Look specifically for pasture raised, not cage free or free range. Crack one of the cheap eggs into a pan and then crack the pasture raised eggs in the pan. You will notice a huge difference between the yolks of these two eggs, the pasture raised ones are a golden orange and the cheaper ones, which are from chickens in cages, are often a very pale snot like clearish yellow.

 

[sangheilios]

[


Sure. My perspective on it is similar to my perspective on abortion. It’s a necessary evil. It’s something which cannot be avoided but it’s something which should be treated with sadness, sorrow and regret. Not something which should be indulged in as a hobby, something to be celebrated as empowering, and certainly not something which should signify liberation or reinforcing of manhood or womanhood. The parallels are quite strong on this.

i totally get that it need to be done if you want to eat meat. My entire point on this is that the average layman seeking our this activity I find disturbing.

I’ve worked on a battery chicken farm and never bought non free range chicken after that, I know it doesn’t yet exist but I would happily accept a doubled cost of meat products provided an extremely humane system of slaughter could be introduce

I’m just a bit aghast at how anyone would want to do it, it’s like grave digging or funeral work. It’s a nasty job and it should be a pro who’s highly paid. In the same way I’d consider someone who wanted to freelance embalm corpses as a fruitcake, I view people who want to do freelance abattoir work as a pork pie short of a picnic.

you may find it amusing to know my wife thinks my attitude to this is a bit pvssy lol. She’s snapped chickens necks and when we had this conversation she said “you know the chickens fresh and it’s good meat of you killed it”. I kind of take the view of I had to kill it I would but I would just rather not have to do it.

It is a curious double standard I suppose but I’ve never understood why one would want to. I find it a bit macabre.

That's not true, there are many egg companies that are from pasture raised chickens, Vital Farms is one on the west coast that has grown tremendously over the last few years. There are also a couple others that I've seen over the years. Bison is a good example, I read an article a while ago that these animals are by law required to be raised on open ranges. I believe the idea is that while these ranchers are raising these animals for meat, they are also breeding them with the intent of raising their numbers and using them for rewilding purposes.

 

[sangheilios]

what isn’t true? You seem to be agreeing with me?

That there aren't eggs you can buy that are from chickens raised on a free pasture.