unconditional love

Desdinova

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Wouldn't this be a condition? Try abusing your dog, never feeding it, keeping it in a cage 24/7, and shunning it from your "pack," and it will not love you anymore.
This comes back to my earlier statement that love is a two way street. If the other party doesn't love you, it doesn't exist. Also, it's not love if the owner is abusing the animal.

So, unconditional love is impossible?!?!
It's really looking like that is the case from this discussion. Could "unconditional love" be the same idea as "perfection" in that it could never truly exist?

People, I think we (or at least I) have discovered another bull5hit idea fed to us by society.
 

WestCoaster

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De-programming, un-learning, whatever. It's taken me a good five years to unlearn this sappy romantic, American culture stuff, and I'm still not completely de-programmed. I still have some AFC cells in me.

Terms to un-learn: unconditional love (complete, utter, B.S.), Soul Mate (more complete, utter B.S.) and there are more.

Something I got wise on: A woman could tell you she loves you one day and in less than a week either be cheating or not mean what she said, or be completely indifferent to you.

Nothing, and I mean nothing is rock solid with women ... except their erratic behavior.
 

Bad_Lil'Pixie

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Rollo Tomassi said:
Love necessitates conditions be met in order for the state to exist; it is therefore a conditional state.
No one can really say what love is. A person may say, I can only "love" an individual that *insert condition here*, but that is more of preference then a condition.

Love does not occur until the lovers begin to "blend" or bond with one another, then and only then can love reach an unconditional level. Preferences are met at this point, sometimes they are changed or even dismissed.

So many factors play in this too, upbringing, outside influences, and personal strengths and efforts. A person that was raised in an abusive home or a home that did not show respect to one another may never be willing to elevate to this level. A person that has been deeply betrayed and hurt, may not be willing to risk it again and reach to this level.

I have heard that love is never having to say you are sorry. Not for me, I think it is all about admitting and acknowleging when I have done wrong. What about you??

I have heard love can conquer ALL! Can it??

1 John 4:16 states God is love...Is He??

There are a gazzillon more "love" guotes, one maybe two may reflect what is in your heart and mine.

Rather or not you can love unconditionally is based on your own personal definition and preference in how you choose to love.
 

Rollo Tomassi

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Desdinova said:
It's really looking like that is the case from this discussion. Could "unconditional love" be the same idea as "perfection" in that it could never truly exist?

People, I think we (or at least I) have discovered another bull5hit idea fed to us by society.
Heheh,..now permit me to twist your head further,...

The IDEA that love 'could' be unconditional does exist (ergo the title of this thread), otherwise we'd have no concept of it. Realizing it is the trick, but as a concept it does exist. Gotta love existentialism,..:nervous:

Of course unicorns and Santa Claus also exist as concepts,..
 

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Bad_Lil'Pixie said:
Rather or not you can love unconditionally is based on your own personal definition and preference in how you choose to love.
I find it fascinating how women will still cling to romantic ideas and demand them even after being proved wrong or being unrealistic. Take for example chivalry. "Why didn't you open the door for me?"
"Why didn't you stay in the car so I could?"
"What are you talking about? No, I meant the restaurant door."
 

Rollo Tomassi

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Bad_Lil'Pixie said:
No one can really say what love is.
Ahhh, and if we keep it nebulous, subjective and esoteric no one ever will.
 

Desdinova

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The IDEA that love 'could' be unconditional does exist
That actually didn't twist anything. It's like how on paper, giving a woman something pretty should make her happy. On paper, a relationship can be based on romance. On paper, a spice can make meat taste much better. The paper can prove that eating spice alone is delicious.

In real life, romance is nothing but a spice to make a relationship better. Nobody wants to eat a plate of oregano with a little chunk of meat on top. In real life, too much spice tastes like crap.

What works in real life is what matters.
 

Bad_Lil'Pixie

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Ok, gentlemen, respectfully I ask: What is love?

You each had no problem stating my ideas of love are too tainted with fluff, I "cling to romantic ideas" and am keeping it "nebulous, subjective and esoteric". Well, I will take esoteric, I do believe it an unfolding mystery, but subjective??, that is just a nasty thought in and of itself.

You each implied the it CAN be defined, but neither of you offered to define it. So here is your chance. Give us this worldly definition of love that is applicable to us all.
 

Captain AFC

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My view point on it is that love CAN be unconditional. We're just lumping the kinds of "love" into one title, when it would be much easier if we had a better word for such a concept. But we don't.

For instance, someone else already mentioned that you can love someone despite turning them into prison. You can love your brother despite his evil deeds. we are constantly called to love our neighbor, etc. etc. Love has nothing to do with "sex," which is what I think gets us all mucked up in the process. We think sex is the only thing that makes it "love," or at least the love we're talking about, or tight family bond.

Or, we usually quantify love as the opposite of hate. It's not the opposite of anything. It just is.

I can hate and love unconditionally at the same time. I can hate the things a person has done, hate the things they stand for, etc., but still love them. Love has nothing to do with "nice" or "acceptance." That isn't love. Kindness... sure. All the other fuzzy stuff? Sure... to a degree. But love is not the opposite of war, or the opposite of conflict.

A parent loves their child while beating them at teh same time when they are young. Are we to honestly say that we only hit children because we're purging the bad blood in our bodies? I can't agree with that sentiment at all.

Are humans unconditional in their loving? Rarely, if ever. Which doesn't really bother me at all. But I still stand by my stance that love is NOT exclusively sex, or blood family relations, or tight freindships.
 

Bad_Lil'Pixie

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Vulpine said:
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/love

:yawn:

I personally like the tennis definition of love myself: zero

I have to tell on myself. When I read your reply I first clicked on the photo of your fully stocked bar. LOL! Sadly, some would say that is what love is all about.

Please don't take me wrong, I do love your perspectives and insights, even if they are not to my beliefs or understanding, they are very valuable just the same.

*winks* Pix
 

A-Unit

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Re:

There is but ONE love, and everything else is a perversion of it. In a social sense, the definition has been warped, so when women or parent's say "I Love you Do this," it's not love, which has caused a great many people harm, and to also RESENT love. This is a sad state.

One can say they LOVE humanity, with a positive emotion and expectation, want nothing, expect nothing and get nothing, and be OK with that, and feel as if we're one complete total connected unit.

You can still LOVE X's, but not feel affection or interest in them as partners. I've never had a person, an X I could say I held a deep hatred or even dislike for. I wished them all the best, whether I ended it or they did. The only person harmed by labeling people as love or unloved is you. And that's a perversion of the definition.

There's but one definition of love, and it can't be defined. I think some of what Jesus/God has gotten at is a good idea, though not the Christian/Catholic one, the untainted idea. I can say I love all members of Sosuave, whether some chuckle head takes it gay or not, and be totally pissed at them for a dumb post, but not have it effect my whole long-term outlook on them.

But again, everybody is wired up using, commercializing everything, they need results now, that everybody in their life must provide them something; positive emotion, favors, benies, women, wingman status, whatever. It's so lame.

We either come together as a species, or die as one, it doesn't matter. But today, we allow definitions to separate us, and yet, when you hang with someone who is defined differently, you probably enjoy them and their company and their momentary impact on your life.

Love isn't anything a person can do, and it certainly doesn't begin when you start marriage. If you love EVERYONE, including yourself, then the rosey glasses come off when you enter a relationship, and see it just as that, a relationship, a partnership, to create a life together, and maybe kids. But when it's LOVE, UNCONDITIONAL LOVE, it's like this woman or man is your LOTTERY ticket. I'm going through that with a friend who is divorcing. In fact, they were friends of mine, they got together, and I have the woman seeing it as the end of the world, and the man seeing it as freedom. He saw the marriage as a relationship, not his only source of love as so many like to confuse it. She wasn't his wellspring of love, so he's in fact OK ending it, since they don't have a good outlook together, or similar wants. Yet she's near suicidal because of this misguided belief that LOVE can only exist in one source.

It exists in all sources, if you understand that. All humans have the potential for love, but maybe only a few WANT a relationship to develop with you. And unconditional love doesn't mean I let you drink yourself dumb, or gain excessive weight, or smoke to death, or drink and drive. Quite the opposite. You're not a door mat. And the music industry propragates this idea further than it should go. Nick Lahey and his whiney song don't help end the image of a knight in shining armor. Maybe if you're a girl with LOTS of bad luck and poor choices, a great guy comes along and is better than anyone before fine. But for a guy who's dated alot, most girls end up close to the same in body, looks, attitude, craziness, etc. It's the personality that changes it, and even then, no one is infallible.

--------------------

In fact, it IS NOT love when you only love one or two people. It's the opposite of love, it's more infatuation, or affection, because of some conscious or subconscious conditioning and comonality. How can it be love if you only confer certain benefits on a girl so long as she does things for you and acts a certain way toward you? Then you can take it away, and in that sense, it was just infatuation, or affection, or preferential treatment, not love.

And family, even then, a son/daughter or father/mother can do horrible, horrible things, and still love them, but not be near them. And maybe you don't wish the worst on them, but you can't be around them. That is love, too. But anything that has a beginning and ending IS not love. And developing that underlying RESPECT, BROTHERLYNESS, COMMONALITY, and GENERAL LOVE/ACCEPTANCE of humanity is a part of feeling oneness, of never feeling alone, because you don't know where a friend might come from. Because you don't know other people, and it's better to extend a helping hand, than a fist, or cast aspersions.

ONLY love is unconditional. It is NON Love if it has a condition. You can love a gf, but expect her to not cheat. And even if she does, you don't have to cease loving her, you just cease dating her. For many, that's a hard reach, and maybe even hard to grasp mentally, but that's the real poison of Earth right now. Everything is conditional, and commercialized. Alot of books don't speak on the positivity of being a oneness, at least as accepting each other as different, not necessarily molding as one.

When we're mad, we should really be mad at ourselves for placing labels and expectations on other's. I can't count the amount of times fight started because a GF or someone else EXPECTED, maybe didn't say it, but expected something, some benefit because you play a certain ROLE in their life. And then, the coup de gras, they say they love you. So do it! Please. Love has no expectation or condition.

You want a favor? Fine. But don't dangle love out there like it's bait and have someone do it because it's love. A mother doesn't just slave because of love. She loves her family and does what she has to do, but that doesn't mean you mooch amd bankrupt her or your family. Love doesn't give you that priviledge. A great book on this awakening is "Awareness." He covers some of the concepts I've spoken of very well and very vividly. And they're all true.

What is perceived as love isn't. It's sad. But love exists, this moment, it isn't developed. Interest is. Commonality. A relationship. But love is fundamental to life, it's the undercurrent. But most don't feel that on a surface level.



A-Unit
 

Desdinova

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For instance, someone else already mentioned that you can love someone despite turning them into prison. You can love your brother despite his evil deeds. we are constantly called to love our neighbor,
Yes, but what about the other person? Again, I see love as a two way street. If a guy "loves" a girl who doesn't love him back, what do you call that? I usually call it infatuation, not love.

I've also come to conclude that love is pretty much the same in every situation. It happens between two people. The "type" of love changes when you throw sex into the mix.

I see "love" as just a word that describes positive actions, reactions, and feelings between two people. That's all it really is.

For all these reasons, that's why you'll see me put the word LOVE in quotation marks, since there is no universal definition.
 

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Captain AFC said:
My view point on it is that love CAN be unconditional. We're just lumping the kinds of "love" into one title, when it would be much easier if we had a better word for such a concept. But we don't.
Captain AFC wants to argue about how long an average unicorn's horn is.


Pixie:

I unconditionaly love my bar. Sometimes it makes me (and several guests) puke, but I still love it. :crackup: Friday is ladies night, so, you're invited. Don't bother wearing a shirt.

To all:

Opinions are opinions, no offense, everyone here is right and entitled to their own beliefs. If you want to believe in the tooth fairy, by all means, wake up and believe... whatever you want to believe.

Saying you have "unconditional love" for someone or something is like saying you have a gallon of rainbows.
 

Desdinova

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You can love a gf, but expect her to not cheat. And even if she does, you don't have to cease loving her, you just cease dating her. For many, that's a hard reach, and maybe even hard to grasp mentally, but that's the real poison of Earth right now. Everything is conditional, and commercialized.
Perhaps it's still a society-warped version of "love" in my head, but couldn't this view be somewhat hazardous to your personal evolution? If I still "loved" my ex, I would have taken her back into my life. Or is that something different, like "forgiveness"?

Is it really a good idea to "love" someone who has done you wrong? Is it healthy for a child abuse victim to love his abuser, but hate what he has done?
 

DarkLight

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Rollo Tomassi said:
Love necessitates conditions be met in order for the state to exist; it is therefore a conditional state.
Disagree.
(and so would Jesus, and the countless realized other saints/buddhas/enlightened beings of humanity)

On the contrary to your statement. Love is the only uncaused condition there is. It is the energy of space itself. The source of all creation, from which things rise and fall. What other energy could give itself so eternally...?

Thus... unconditional love, can and does exist. It is your soul, your spirit.

The issue I find here, is that the classic western mind (from which the majority of us have been brought up in) has no frame of reference, to such a reality. We break down "love" into neuro-physiological processes. Forgetting that those in themselves are the divine manifestations of conciousness into form as life itself.

We have no understanding, or taste of the buddhas or enlightened beings throughout our legacy of humanity. Such beings have chosen such an other-wordly response, by opening up and channeling the substance of god(unconditional love) to life (in all its "sh!tty" conditions whatever they may be). These men/women have opted to recieve life from the level of its source. And have therefore realized themselves to be more than ever dreamed. Something of the beyond themself. A true man. A true woman. In their wholly infinite magnitude. While what I say might sound entirely too "romantic" and "idealized", that is exactly what I'm talking about when I say the majority of us have no reference to recieve such perspectives, without labelling it as such.

Another issue I've gleamed through this thread is the perspective on "unconditional love" is somehow erroneously linked to an-OTHER.

Such an attitude when embraced in its totality is literally a sole(soul) choice. I would go so far as to say that when an attitude of this limitlessness is chosen, there is no other choice so in-lign with SELF (true self that is).

Other words/qualities (like acceptance or gratitude) that would lead to the same reality, definitely do exist, and therefore are of equal status. But... their direction (albeit non-linear) is still one and the same.

Imagine someone dying on the battlefield, or in the streets... from the hands of another man. What would you label the response, when the man dying forgives, and blesses the other in the compassion of his dying heart?

Now certainly if such a scenario is possible (which we all know it is)... one could forgive and continue to love those who inflicted lesser acts upon us.

NOW... let me clarify my stance, before you twist your understanding of what I'm talking about into a position of weakness. In no way is the position of "unconditional love" a position of supplication. You have no agenda other than being and giving who you are... for no other purpose than, that itself. There is no aim to get manipulate women to get the panties. The panties come to you, from such a Godly stance.

Vulpine wrote-
"If you would give unconditional love to a woman, that would make you her pet or her kid, surely not her equal."

You are right and your are wrong (imo). You are wrong in that... you wouldn't be a pet or a kid... that is ridiculous. Such a powerful response, and its levels of energy would not allow such a subordinate position. And beyond that, the quality your giving to her, would be channeling through you... thus would not, nor could not allow itself to be forsaken in the process. For how, if you loved something "unconditionally" would you allow the instrument to be broken or damaged!?

Now you are right in that you would be "surely not her equal." No you would be radiating as a sun, burning all the potential of your soul's infinite reality. While she would still be living from a limited fear controlled reality deluded wordly reality. Poor in her restrained resources and confused as such. The comparison quite simply would be... that of a GOD to a woman. (just for the AFC's in here looking to twist, I will make the disclaimer: the opposite is true too... lol, GODDESS to man).

I would encourage all of you to simply think about this... what is a man without heart?

Now wouldn't the continuous opening and expansion of that heart lead to the revelation of the spirit of man?!

Unconditional love to all!
Peace and.........................................
 

Vulpine

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Ok, the topic is just getting further and further into a gray/grey/gris/pantone 435U area.

I purposefully and intentionally tried to not involve spirituality and religion because we've alread established that the concept is real. Now we are going to be arguing which is heavier, a pound of rainbows, a centigram of rainbows, a gallon of rainbows, or a unicorn.

If you are going to involve religion, let me point out that even God himself did not and does not display unconditional love for humans. Adam and Eve, Noah, Satan and Hell... So if pets don't love unconditionally, and God doesn't love unconditionally, do you think a human can could or should? <- rhetorical question

"Unconditional Love" is a concept. Just like the mathematical expression "infinity" (the lazy 8). What we are arguing is "Is infinity real?" The concept is very tangible and very deep and romantic, but it gets it's own set off symbols instead of a digit because it is so inexpressable: An elipse (...), the lazy 8, a line above the last expressed number. Pi is the same way. Does Pi exist? Sure, the concept is sound. What's the number to express it? You can write digits your entire life and die not fully expressing unconditional love... er, Pi.
 

DarkLight

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Desdinova said:
Perhaps it's still a society-warped version of "love" in my head, but couldn't this view be somewhat hazardous to your personal evolution? If I still "loved" my ex, I would have taken her back into my life. Or is that something different, like "forgiveness"?

Is it really a good idea to "love" someone who has done you wrong? Is it healthy for a child abuse victim to love his abuser, but hate what he has done?
In my personal opinion, and for benefitting you... I think you hit the nail right on the head!

Perhaps you do have a societal-warped version of "love" in your head. And your expressing the EXACT concern that such a view would be worried about... "hazardous to your personal evolution." On the contrary... it would be the key to your personal evolution.

No other energy is as benevolent as love is. It is the source, the formless energy of existance itself. The energy of your heart/spirit/soul. God is love... thus allow the channeling of god into your life in the form of unconditional love. Such an opening would transform and allow yourself to realize your infinite potential as a man, a GOD.

This is personal evolution.

In regards to the day-to-day level of application. IDK if you would necessarily have taken your ex back, in such a light. But surely you would still feel the care in your heart for her soul.

One thing that needs to be CLEARLY UNDERSTOOD here is... such a response/attitude towards life... is not an opening to personal perish. Maybe for the ego, but certainly not for your heart/spirit... the core of being a man.

I can prove it to you in this regard... you as an evolving person have become more of your potential to the degree that you open your heart... correct?

This is just the lever to the flood-gates of truly kicking the damn doors open, and sky-rocketing into godliness. A terrifying thing really. But... the direction we've all been crawling in anyways... and as life dictates... the only direction possible to move (from the ultimate sense).

I think A-Unit clarified this perspective fantastically in what you quoted...
"You can love a gf, but expect her to not cheat. And even if she does, you don't have to cease loving her, you just cease dating her. For many, that's a hard reach, and maybe even hard to grasp mentally, but that's the real poison of Earth right now. Everything is conditional, and commercialized."

Such an opening is all-powerful... not weak and deluded, as the mind's entrained commercial version of "love" would see it.

In regards to your second question... I absolutely think it is important for a person to love (in the true sense now) a person who has done them wrong. There are lessons in the situations that we attract to ourselves. Sometimes deeply painful lessons, yet lessons all the same. If we do not open our heart's to the person and scenario in question... how will we have the faculties to clearly see/feel/experience the learning therin!?

And in such cases of a child being abused, where its just the terribly unfortunate scenario of another... rather than our own mind's confusion attracting such atrocities. I still feel its crucial for the child to open their heart in love, for the sake of healing the energy (in all its forms: pain, anger, sadness) so it no longer is a weight, influencing and dictating their lives from there on out. Energetically if they don't... the effects of not processing such harmful feelings, etc... can be a cancerous reaction, in all forms.

There is treasures of intelligence/wisdom in everything... no matter how horrible. We all know the lessons that our past heartbreaks brought us... in the form of illuminating our AFC ways. A terrible reality to experience, feel and go through... damn, what priceless gems of awareness. The value therin brought us into such networks of exploration (such as this) to realize the errors of our ways... and better our personal evolution into being the men we want and know ourselves to truly be.

With that said...
 

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Vulpine said:
Ok, the topic is just getting further and further into a gray/grey/gris/pantone 435U area.

I purposefully and intentionally tried to not involve spirituality and religion because we've alread established that the concept is real. Now we are going to be arguing which is heavier, a pound of rainbows, a centigram of rainbows, a gallon of rainbows, or a unicorn.

If you are going to involve religion, let me point out that even God himself did not and does not display unconditional love for humans. Adam and Eve, Noah, Satan and Hell... So if pets don't love unconditionally, and God doesn't love unconditionally, do you think a human can could or should? <- rhetorical question

"Unconditional Love" is a concept. Just like the mathematical expression "infinity" (the lazy 8). What we are arguing is "Is infinity real?" The concept is very tangible and very deep and romantic, but it gets it's own set off symbols instead of a digit because it is so inexpressable: An elipse (...), the lazy 8, a line above the last expressed number. Pi is the same way. Does Pi exist? Sure, the concept is sound. What's the number to express it? You can write digits your entire life and die not fully expressing unconditional love... er, Pi.
Pantone 435U, pound of rainbows... lol, too funny.

I was waiting for such. But really... what the hell did you expect, in a thread titled "unconditional love" and excluding religion, and such spiritual perspectives? lol

let me answer some of your questions real quick.

Unconditional love a concept?
Only if you haven't yet actualized and realized it as a reality.

God himself did not and does not display unconditional love for humans
-Only if your talking about the comic book version, thats been past down and worshipped blindly through the centuries. Otherwise... your wrong. Thus life's endless orgasm in all its myriad forms. Sorry if you can't see it, but I guess thats what the vision of merely seeing "unconditional love" as a concept yields.

If you want a number as a symbol to convince your logical left hemisphere of the potential reality of infinity... I'd simply answer "0" (Zero)

It meets all the perameters of infinity. And funny enough the concept of zero was born in the east. The birthplace of understanding that all form (numbers) are born from formlessness (zero). Thus... the finite are born from and defined in relation to infinity. So yes... infinity does exist, and can clearly be represented by the symbol zero... 0.

All my posts were to synthesize an inevitably spiritual topic "unconditional love" into the benefits of realizing the value in its role in becoming a MAN. A true Don Juan.

Don't let the fact that we're floating in infinite vacuous space... sound esoteric. Its the reality outside your window, listening to 50-cent, doin 75 on the freeway.

Hope something of what I said was of value to someone.
Peace...................
 

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Actually, religion ties conditionality into love more than anything else on earth.

If you don't love Jesus, Budda, whoever, with all your soul and might, you're banned to eternal hell.

If that's not a condition, I don't know what is!
 
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