This sh**'s getting old (pun intended)

[BaronOfHair]

I'm gonna preface this by saying that I'm quite drunk... I'm good friends with the bartenders and staff, and have social proof; I skipped the line, and my drinks were free.

I'm betting you spend a lot of your time sauced and brooding over things you're unsatisfied with

 

[MatureDJ]

I'm gonna preface this by saying that I'm quite drunk.

Now that that's out of the way, I just got back from a night out and I'm absolutely losing my mind about the ridiculousness of these women...

I am 6ft tall, 220 lbs, and I'm ripped to shreds. I have all my hair, I have all my teeth - I even had a girl ask me tonight if my teeth were real or if they were veneers. I'm good friends with the bartenders and staff, and have social proof; I skipped the line, and my drinks were free.

Yet still, I'm running into the same problem:

"Do you go here?"
"Where do you go?"
"Oh, you're graduated?"
"Why are you here?"

It's all that f***ing matters.

I went up to a couple of girls tonight...

The first of which seemed interested, but left early with her friend. She was asking why I was there and didn't believe I was as old as I was. Needless to say, nothing happened there. She left a full hour before closing. I'm doubtful anything will become of that.

The second girl was eyeing ME up, so she waved me over and I went and talked to her for a bit. Same story; she found out I was older and thought I was cute, but wasn't interested.

So I went and talked to another girl. Turns out she's friends with girl number 2, and saw us talking, and decided she wasn't interested because I was hitting on her friend. She didn't mind that I was older, but didn't like being second fiddle to her friend, who, by the way, I told her was hitting on ME.

That brings us to girl number 3 - a gorgeous girl hanging out with her friends by the bar. Didn't mind the age, and I think we hit it off, but she wasn't prepared to leave with me that night. Rather, she wanted me to take her out tomorrow night. I suggested drinks at this nearby spot at around 10. She asked if we could go at 6, and then 8. I told her I wanted to be how she ended the night, not a pregame to how she started it. She asked whether that was her decision, to which I responded, "Yeah, and it's my decision whether to take you". She thinks 10 is late, so we'll see if that becomes a thing or not.

The most likely scenario is I'll end up going out there with no girl tomorrow night, which is fine. But man, this is starting to piss me off - I'm doing better than my competition in every way except for the number on my DOB in my driver's license. I don't understand why this is such a massive roadblock.

It's my birthday on Sunday, I'll be going out in Philly Saturday night with some friends, and most likely going back out here again on Friday night. I'd like to get laid, ideally with someone new, but I did not anticipate my age being such an issue.

I don't really know what type of solutions I'd expect to read, this is more of a rant on the ridiculousness of a number on my driver's license being what's getting in the way of me and these women - and it's starting to really piss me off. In a month, most of these patrons will be graduated and Delaware will go back to being the ghost town it's always been - dry spells and all.

Looking to avoid that.

Anyway, thanks for tuning into my rant. Have a good night.

And you're ranting about going for drinks at 6 instead of 8? I have had some gals not even want to pencil me in the evening (only afternoon).

 

[MatureDJ]

If the problem actually is age, why not go for women closer to your age?

Cliquey, young, socially-conscious women are practically owned by their cliques and in some cases rotate through the men in them! There’s no penetrating the clique!

Another option is to build a relationship with a woman so this exhausting, jestermaxxing process isn’t needed.

Considering you’re a handsome, muscular man (220# shredded at 6’ is enormous), you might do well on apps.

Your age isn’t ”just a number on your license,” in the same way your income isn’t just a number on a screen.

I first learned about this at age 14, when there were 12 year old gals cycling through me & my friends.

 

[BillyPilgrim]

OP this is simple. Lie about your age. Take off 5 years to establish yourself as "older" but not "too old". Bang your plates silly and come clean about your age during the afterglow of sex during small talk. Tell her/them your war stories (as outlined above) and explain it was necessary. Embellish them to make them funny. Then bang her silly again. See if they don't let it slide.

 

[Travel memoir21]

You need to make answer this question, 'How would a sophisticated older, gentleman picks up women'? It definitely aint going to immature college bars that's for sure. Now if you were to say heading on out even places like Airports bar lounges or lounging around in family resto bars in certain Hotels? Then Yes. You need a change of venue my friend.

 

[characternote]

Are you against lying about your age out of interest?
I notice you didn't respond to me or the other 2 or 3 people who suggested doing so. I'm just curious. I guess some people wouldn't feel comfortable lying like that

I managed to bang a mega hot SEVENTEEN year old a year or so back and it's such a great memory as she was just so hot and young and it would never ever have been possible without me massively lying about my age. I pretty much always do it lol

 

[Gamisch]

On paper you are a "prize", but you don't see yourself like that. You never will see yourself as a prize until you work on your mindset. Being all of that doesn't guarantee anything as you know, so why are you failing? Hint: Its not women



You see the pattern? In your mind you are all of that, so they must be dripping wet for you right? And when they don't there is conflict with reality vs your narcissistic fantasy, all of them can see right through you, making you look fake and extremely unattractive.



Its not fine, your whole goal in life is puzzy, wrong approach.


Since you are all of that, it has to be another external factor that you can't get girls right? Now is your birthday?
You are not doing better than anyone else, in fact you are doing worse because you are so "attractive" but are going home with no puzzy, just like a fat slob who masturbate all day, you two are the same at the end of the day.


The only solution is in your mind, not in external factors. But you won't get it, until the pain gets too much and you do something about it.


Flash news: It is not


Why not? Your masculinity is so fragile that if you spend a couple of months with no puzzy you are gonna become gay? Or your ego just can't understand that you should be swimming in puzzy but you are not?


This is a cautionary example, how ego can fvck up everything. You can turn yourself into the most attractive guy on earth, but if you mind doesn't think that, you are fvcked.

Look (@OP), NJ isn't always the most subtle one when it comes to shyte like this but we can't deny he has a point.

I say this because lately I've been going through something similar. Imo the elephant in the room amongst us " Don Juans" is the fact we are TOO hyper focused on women and p00sy.

And yet, sometimes life has his /her funny ways of humbling us. I geuss ,just like me, that getting women never been an issue for you like it is for the average Joe. But that doesn't mean your entire life it will be a smooth ride when it comes to (getting) women.

Women have a sixth sense for men like you( and me and many members here). It basically comes down to the need for validation from strangers, oftentimes very shallow validation that's very one-sided.

I geuss if you change your mindset and focus LESS on women that these dynamics will change into your favor again.

Ask yourself if there is ANYTHING else right now that needs your 100% focus and attention rather than getting involved with the chaotic and fickle minds and hearts of these "baddies". For me that's my kids, my financial health / my business and my family. Never forget: women will ALWAYS be there, but sometimes we're focusing WAY too much on getting that ego boost through women. Because that's what it's all about: the ego.
___________________________________________
And do NOT lie about your age. A real man doesn't have to lie about ANYTHING . You'll learn how messed up it is once you actually find a nice woman and you constantly have to:
- hide your ID card% driver license
- calculate your new date of birth
- watch what you say about what generation you're from
- and eventually you might need to get rid of a good woman because you've been lying about something as fundamental as your age.

A Real man doesn't lie because we are PROUD of who we are and what we've been through.

Tell them you're 23

Read my last segment

 

[Barrister]

OP,

@SW15 already nailed this for you. You are choosing a very difficult target range age wise for a guy who is over 25. These girls are living in a bubble and automatically are going to only want to interact with people their own age both socially and romantically. You may pull one here or there but overall this is going to be a losing battle more often than not.

You either need to accept that if you truly enjoy the hunt that much and get a way better attitude OR you need to switch it up altogether (recommended).

 

[Gamisch]

OP,

@SW15 already nailed this for you. You are choosing a very difficult target range age wise for a guy who is over 25. These girls are living in a bubble and automatically are going to only want to interact with people their own age both socially and romantically. You may pull one here or there but overall this is going to be a losing battle more often than not.

You either need to accept that if you truly enjoy the hunt that much and get a way better attitude OR you need to switch it up altogether (recommended).

What's good Barrister.

I don't necessarily think he CAN'T pull a 21 - 23 y.o. Especially if we go by his stats. Imo 20 something y.o women are more than willing to date men between 20 and 50 depending on their specific needs. Basically I don't think women are that much focused on dating within their own age, because we all know that the modern 20 something y.o male doesn't have that much to offer besides looks( something OP apparently also provides).

Imo the issue is that the dating game is changing rapidly in front of our eyes like the mobile phone took over the landline. A 23 y.o woman in 2025 isn't the same as a 23 y.o woman from let's say a decade ago. As f-ed up as it may be, but the fact is that women around that age have a HUGE abundance of available men and most will definitely find ways to milk those abilities to the max. Basically men and women nowadays are living in completely different dimensions and if you're are active in the dating game for more than 10 years youll slowly but surely notice the shift.

Even pro ballers, rich men and celebrities starting to notice this!!

 

[Barrister]

What's good Barrister.

I don't necessarily think he CAN'T pull a 21 - 23 y.o. Especially if we go by his stats. Imo 20 something y.o women are more than willing to date men between 20 and 50 depending on their specific needs. Basically I don't think women are that much focused on dating within their own age, because we all know that the modern 20 something y.o male doesn't have that much to offer besides looks( something OP apparently also provides).

Imo the issue is that the dating game is changing rapidly in front of our eyes like the mobile phone took over the landline. A 23 y.o woman in 2025 isn't the same as a 23 y.o woman from let's say a decade ago. As f-ed up as it may be, but the fact is that women around that age have a HUGE abundance of available men and most will definitely find ways to milk those abilities to the max. Basically men and women nowadays are living in completely different dimensions and if you're are active in the dating game for more than 10 years youll slowly but surely notice the shift.

Even pro ballers, rich men and celebrities starting to notice this!!

He certainly CAN pull in this situation. The issue is the success rate which is going to be very low at best. And he’s clearly frustrated judging by his post. He’d be better served going somewhere different than a college bar with college girls who think their world is the campus and immediate surrounding area.

 

[CornbreadFed]

People telling op to lie about his age do not live in reality. He clearly looks older because women are questioning him. If he looked younger then this wouldn’t be an issue.

 

[BPH]

One way to prove if your theory is true, which is your age, maybe lie about it and see if you are more successful. It is great for research.

There were a lot of good replies and pieces of advice being given, and the last 2 days have been quite busy so I want to start here.

This is actually an interesting idea, just to see if it's what makes the difference, because I think it will. In response to @sevbucmash and @characternote and @BillyPilgrim whoever else suggested I lie about my age - I don't want to.

If they have a problem with my age, it's their problem and their preference. I don't want to end up in bed with a woman and have her feel like I lied to her and throw out a r**e allegation because she regrets the situation. That might sound like a reach, but I've heard plenty of horror stories from others about the lengths to which the women in their lives have gone to lie.

There was a college bar district in my town that I tried to pickup girls at in my early 30's. I never had any success. I just couldn't penetrate their social groups and I wasn't part of their cliques.

Now take the same age, non-college girls at bars that weren't known as college bars and I didn't have any issues.

As @SW15 pointed out, you will have better luck in non-college bars.

I bet it doesn't have anything to do with anything else other than you aren't in the college kid club. Some of these guys go overbiars and get way too deep in the weeds because they lack experience. It's not that complicated.

I agree, I'm just working with what I've got available. Decent alternatives are all 40-60 minutes away.

Brother, I'm not bashing you, I tell you because I know what you're feeling, like a splinter in your mind, that is making you confused. I was in that place some time ago, I know what I'm saying.


Everyone in the forum know about this, you don't have to keep repeating it, you are acting exactly how a woman would act, like @BeExcellent whenever she mentions often in her comments how she married a young, athlete, who makes six figs, they love to say things that they have, that is feminine behavior, masculine men don't do that.


But what does reality tell you? This is narcissism, they can't understand what's perception vs reality. Read about it if you have the balls to get better. You are imposing to yourself such a high expectations and that is making you miserable, its okay to fail, the only way is to go up after that.


This is thirst, you are thirsty for women, and they can smell that $hit from miles away, that's why you are failing so hard. You think women will cease to exist.

Your ego wants to protect you so bad, that you just can't accept that after having all those qualities, there are a lot of women who don't want you. Its okay man, nature has left some women without you touching them for us. We all are winning here, like a tribe of men.

I think you're overanalyzing this a little bit.

It's not that complicated, I'm just frustrated that good interactions suddenly turn to s*** once these women find out my age, something I can't control that never really matters outside these college bars. I find it immature and don't think age matters (within legal reason) if you're otherwise attracted to somebody, but everybody is entitled to their preferences.

It's just especially annoying right now because I don't have the abundance or rotation I recently had.

Fix that headlight so you don't get pulled over and get a dui.

Don't worry, I don't drive for exactly this reason. Either Uber or a friend offers.

^^I view this as a compliment! Positive versus negative mindset and all that...

Curious how you responded?



Well, there ya go. In that case it wasn't because you were older, apparently she didn't like your vibe and being second fiddle. Not many attractive women would!

And jmo but not a good idea to blame the fact you were hitting on her friend on her friend, telling her that her friend was hitting on you! Even if true.

@BPH I have tons of respect for you, but I sort of cringed when I read that.

Sorry man. I think you can do better.

I don't know if I'd agree that it's a compliment. Oftentimes, any fixation on the number I just gave them means it's enough of a roadblock to be an issue they need to address and understand. The ones who don't mind usually move right past it.

Girl 1 left quite early, texted me she missed me later that night, but nothing became of that. Last night I texted asking if she was coming out, she told me "No I don't think so", I told her that was too bad, and that was the end of that conversation - no offers about when she's free next. Probably won't go anywhere.

Girl 2 was just unfortunate...of course, she's the friend of the girl who just waved me over. I can understand not wanting to be the second choice, I couldn't do anything about that.

Girl 3 is actually the one who has some potential. Texted back and forth a bit, followed me on Instagram. I forget who thinks the 6PM or 8PM thing is a non-issue, but I'll tag them when I see it on page 2 here because I know what it means. Basically, this is a problem because she's not thinking about the date so much as she's thinking about what she's doing AFTER the date - I'm not trying to subsidize this girl's pregame so she can get smashed at some dude's frat house. Yesterday we texted back and forth a bit, and I gave her plenty of outs; she does want to go on the date with me, but she also wants to spend some time with her friends because everybody is graduating in a few weeks. We have tentative plans for Sunday night.

Yes that photo is me in my 50s with no filters or retouching. I look the same. Went to my 35 year HS reunion a few years ago & the comment classmates kept saying was "Wow, you look the same or better than you did in high school!", which of course made my husband grin.

I notice almost nobody around here is as transparent about what they look like as I am. You sir, certainly are not. People in glass houses are better off not throwing stones, Hmmm?

I've thought about doing this, but I'd be concerned about people being weird about it, or using it to find my personal info.

If the problem actually is age, why not go for women closer to your age?

Cliquey, young, socially-conscious women are practically owned by their cliques and in some cases rotate through the men in them! There’s no penetrating the clique!

Another option is to build a relationship with a woman so this exhausting, jestermaxxing process isn’t needed.

Considering you’re a handsome, muscular man (220# shredded at 6’ is enormous), you might do well on apps.

Your age isn’t ”just a number on your license,” in the same way your income isn’t just a number on a screen.

I'd be happy to go for women my age if there were places nearby that the attractive ones would go to. Delaware is just not good for that; the only main bar scenes for young adults post-college are Trolley Square and Dewey Beach. Neither one is a particularly good time for a single guy trying to meet attractive women.

Where I live is so small that you see the same people at these places every time. Beyond what I listed above, there are a handful of decent local bars, but they have the same regular groups too.

It's just not fun. Which is why I usually jump at the opportunity to stay overnight with my buddy who lives in Philadelphia. The reason I engage in the behavior that's pissed me off above is because I'm working with what I've got available.

 

[BPH]

Look (@OP), NJ isn't always the most subtle one when it comes to shyte like this but we can't deny he has a point.

I say this because lately I've been going through something similar. Imo the elephant in the room amongst us " Don Juans" is the fact we are TOO hyper focused on women and p00sy.

And yet, sometimes life has his /her funny ways of humbling us. I geuss ,just like me, that getting women never been an issue for you like it is for the average Joe. But that doesn't mean your entire life it will be a smooth ride when it comes to (getting) women.

Women have a sixth sense for men like you( and me and many members here). It basically comes down to the need for validation from strangers, oftentimes very shallow validation that's very one-sided.

I geuss if you change your mindset and focus LESS on women that these dynamics will change into your favor again.

Ask yourself if there is ANYTHING else right now that needs your 100% focus and attention rather than getting involved with the chaotic and fickle minds and hearts of these "baddies". For me that's my kids, my financial health / my business and my family. Never forget: women will ALWAYS be there, but sometimes we're focusing WAY too much on getting that ego boost through women. Because that's what it's all about: the ego.
___________________________________________
And do NOT lie about your age. A real man doesn't have to lie about ANYTHING . You'll learn how messed up it is once you actually find a nice woman and you constantly have to:
- hide your ID card% driver license
- calculate your new date of birth
- watch what you say about what generation you're from
- and eventually you might need to get rid of a good woman because you've been lying about something as fundamental as your age.

A Real man doesn't lie because we are PROUD of who we are and what we've been through.


Read my last segment

I'll admit I'm a bit hyper-focused RIGHT NOW because I'm trying to replace the regular sex I lost all at once.

I know that in a few weeks, these girls will all graduate, and this bar will become a ghost town. Then I'll have to deal with the same old townies that disappoint me every time I go out, where I'm all but required to go to Philly to try and meet someone attractive that's not a single mom.

I'm operating with the knowledge that it sucks a little now, and will probably suck a lot more really soon. So I'm in a bit of a rush to try and meet somebody whom I'd be able to regularly see. It certainly doesn't help that the FWB I slept over with just last night hit me with a text saying that she's ready for something more serious, understands that won't happen with me, and wishes me luck since she doesn't think she should continue seeing me.

OP,

@SW15 already nailed this for you. You are choosing a very difficult target range age wise for a guy who is over 25. These girls are living in a bubble and automatically are going to only want to interact with people their own age both socially and romantically. You may pull one here or there but overall this is going to be a losing battle more often than not.

You either need to accept that if you truly enjoy the hunt that much and get a way better attitude OR you need to switch it up altogether (recommended).

I agree with you and @SW15 . Like I said, I'm just working with what I've got because the alternatives are further away and much more expensive. Not to mention, nothing's guaranteed in Philly either - there's just more places to go and look. It's still like trying to find a needle in a haystack when it comes to finding hot girls in these other spots.

People telling op to lie about his age do not live in reality. He clearly looks older because women are questioning him. If he looked younger then this wouldn’t be an issue.

I look younger. Everybody guesses between 23 and 25. The problem arises because they ask if I go here, or when I graduated, or whatever else related to age. That's when they find out I have 8 or 9 years on them, and the conversation has a 75% chance of fizzling out.

 

[Manure Spherian]

There were a lot of good replies and pieces of advice being given, and the last 2 days have been quite busy so I want to start here.

This is actually an interesting idea, just to see if it's what makes the difference, because I think it will. In response to @sevbucmash and @characternote and @BillyPilgrim whoever else suggested I lie about my age - I don't want to.

If they have a problem with my age, it's their problem and their preference. I don't want to end up in bed with a woman and have her feel like I lied to her and throw out a r**e allegation because she regrets the situation. That might sound like a reach, but I've heard plenty of horror stories from others about the lengths to which the women in their lives have gone to lie.



I agree, I'm just working with what I've got available. Decent alternatives are all 40-60 minutes away.



I think you're overanalyzing this a little bit.

It's not that complicated, I'm just frustrated that good interactions suddenly turn to s*** once these women find out my age, something I can't control that never really matters outside these college bars. I find it immature and don't think age matters (within legal reason) if you're otherwise attracted to somebody, but everybody is entitled to their preferences.

It's just especially annoying right now because I don't have the abundance or rotation I recently had.



Don't worry, I don't drive for exactly this reason. Either Uber or a friend offers.



I don't know if I'd agree that it's a compliment. Oftentimes, any fixation on the number I just gave them means it's enough of a roadblock to be an issue they need to address and understand. The ones who don't mind usually move right past it.

Girl 1 left quite early, texted me she missed me later that night, but nothing became of that. Last night I texted asking if she was coming out, she told me "No I don't think so", I told her that was too bad, and that was the end of that conversation - no offers about when she's free next. Probably won't go anywhere.

Girl 2 was just unfortunate...of course, she's the friend of the girl who just waved me over. I can understand not wanting to be the second choice, I couldn't do anything about that.

Girl 3 is actually the one who has some potential. Texted back and forth a bit, followed me on Instagram. I forget who thinks the 6PM or 8PM thing is a non-issue, but I'll tag them when I see it on page 2 here because I know what it means. Basically, this is a problem because she's not thinking about the date so much as she's thinking about what she's doing AFTER the date - I'm not trying to subsidize this girl's pregame so she can get smashed at some dude's frat house. Yesterday we texted back and forth a bit, and I gave her plenty of outs; she does want to go on the date with me, but she also wants to spend some time with her friends because everybody is graduating in a few weeks. We have tentative plans for Sunday night.



I've thought about doing this, but I'd be concerned about people being weird about it, or using it to find my personal info.



I'd be happy to go for women my age if there were places nearby that the attractive ones would go to. Delaware is just not good for that; the only main bar scenes for young adults post-college are Trolley Square and Dewey Beach. Neither one is a particularly good time for a single guy trying to meet attractive women.

Where I live is so small that you see the same people at these places every time. Beyond what I listed above, there are a handful of decent local bars, but they have the same regular groups too.

It's just not fun. Which is why I usually jump at the opportunity to stay overnight with my buddy who lives in Philadelphia. The reason I engage in the behavior that's pissed me off above is because I'm working with what I've got available.

What about dating apps?

 

[BPH]

What about dating apps?

I do well on them, but I'm still swiping on girls within a 30-mile radius of Delaware. There are a lot of bots, fake accounts, girls who don't respond, and just a few attractive prospects in general. If I swipe on 100 girls, I'm probably only swiping right 2-4 times and they're almost guaranteed to be at the outer limits of that 30 miles.

 

[SW15]

He certainly CAN pull in this situation. The issue is the success rate which is going to be very low at best.

I'm still swiping on girls within a 30-mile radius of Delaware.

Agree that the odds are going to be low for a 31 year old at college bars, even with a strong physique.

You've probably done everything you can do where you are.

You need to go to Philadelphia, Baltimore, or Washington DC at this point. Those are the closest major cities. Philadelphia is the best option of those 3.

 

[Sega Genesis]

I don't know if I'd agree that it's a compliment. Often times, any fixation on the number I just gave them means it's enough of a roadblock to be an issue they need to address and understand. The ones who don't mind usually move right past it.

Fair enough if that's how you feel but I disagree that she was "fixated" on the number.

All she said was she didn't think you looked your age meaning she thought from your looks you were younger!

Which was a nice thing to say! I hear it often myself and to me it's a compliment. It's certainly not a negative at least not to me.

Sure she could have ignored it but maybe she just wanted to say something nice.

Who knows I wasn't there, you were so have more context and the benefit of body language, tone of voice when saying it etc..

 

[Sega Genesis]

You need to go to Philadelphia, Baltimore, or Washington DC at this point. Those are the closest major cities. Philadelphia is the best option of those 3.

I agree, however keep in mind that right now with your looks and style, you are a 'big fish in a small pond.'

If you move to a major city (I saw you also created a thread about Los Angeles) you will be a 'small fish in a big pond' and competing with many other hot guys who may even possibly be more financially successful than you.

So there is that to consider too.

 

[Sega Genesis]

To add, did I read that you've been approached for modeling?

Big bucks and something to consider?

New York and LA are best if you do...

 

[BPH]

Fair enough if that's how you feel but I disagree that she was "fixated" on the number.

All she said was she didn't think you looked your age meaning she thought from your looks you were younger!

Which was a nice thing to say! I hear it often myself and to me it's a compliment. It's certainly not a negative at least not to me.

Sure she could have ignored it but maybe she just wanted to say something nice.

Who knows I wasn't there, you were so have more context and the benefit of body language, tone of voice when saying it etc..

The conversation went well, but I got the impression her attraction level wasn't THAT high, and she seems like more of a good girl.

To add, did I read that you've been approached for modeling?

Big bucks and something to consider?

New York and LA are best if you do...

I had an exclusivity contract with BMG in New York for 18 months. During that time, they got me zero work, despite my regularly sending them photos to update my portfolio.

Once that ended, I started working with an agent who develops actors and models in Washington, DC. This happened right around the time COVID started becoming a thing. I auditioned for some work and got a couple of callbacks, but I was required to get vaccinated and regularly update my boosters - something I wasn't willing to do since I had some reservations about how the vaccine was rolled out, along with its side effects.

So they dropped me as a talent, and I haven't bothered revisiting since. I'm several years older and would likely find it even more difficult to find work, especially since I didn't have training or an artistic background. So I stopped putting my eggs in that basket.