They will not stop with the anti-gun propaganda.....

[LiveFreeX]

Not painting a nice picture. This is why I warn my students away from travelling to the world's most violent country. Not like you care but is staying there really worth all the effort of getting armed? I mean the amount of effort you guys put in to fighting and creating awareness about anti-gun laws, you could probably move to a less violent and chaotic country with a much better health system.

 

[Who Dares Win]

Not painting a nice picture. This is why I warn my students away from travelling to the world's most violent country. Not like you care but is staying there really worth all the effort of getting armed? I mean the amount of effort you guys put in to fighting and creating awareness about anti-gun laws, you could probably move to a less violent and chaotic country with a much better health system.

Scum works like density, when there is an environment with a low one it tends to move to compensate the differential.

The last thing it needs is some white liberal preeching peace and anti-gun love then opening his neightbourghood to gangs only to escape after he gets mugged and his wife harassed...then moving to a safer community and restart to ask to ban guns and be peaceful to scum and again and again...

You cant simply move to a "safer" zone instead of make safe the one in which you live.

 

[goundra]

the ONLY reason Russia and china have not "eaten alive" all you other countries is the TRILLIONS of $ that WE have spent to keep them in check. How about Europe PAYS us the trillions of $ (by now, with interest) that we spent on saving Europe in WW2, The Marshall plan,( and Nato, for 50 odd years) hmmm?/ How about THAT? HOw many Europeans went to help us fight, In Korea, Nam, or Aphganistan, hmm? Fvck Europe.

 

[Who Dares Win]

the ONLY reason Russia and china have not "eaten alive" all you other countries is the TRILLIONS of $ that WE have spent to keep them in check. How about Europe PAYS us the trillions of $ (by now, with interest) that we spent on saving Europe in WW2, The Marshall plan,( and Nato, for 50 odd years) hmmm?/ How about THAT? HOw many Europeans went to help us fight, In Korea, Nam, or Aphganistan, hmm? Fvck Europe.

You are spending too much time in your underground bunker to produce your "fake quality passport" and stocking ammo, the lack of sun makes you paranoid and the vapor of the ink for your passports is turning you raving.
In a couple of months you'll be dressing like Napoleon and trying to invade Prussia with an army of stray cats.

The only reason the states joined WWII was because they didnt want Hitler to be the official bully in Europe and deprive american bankers of post WWI reconstruction income.

Your elites just want the monopoly of bullying for the whole world but unlike stealing cheese through fist they steal millions through violence and tricks.

 

[PlayHer Man]

Livefree,

This is actually a common misperception amongst the anti-gunners. Their thoughts typically follow this pattern.

1. One person can't fight the Government, no point in owning a gun.
2. A group of people can't fight the Government, no point in owning a gun.
3. 60 Million can't form an army effectively to fight the Government, no point in owning a gun.

I have already addressed number one and two, by citing the 60 million number. The part that hangs up most of the anti-gun group, is that they envision a direct confrontation between a Government army, and patches of rebels.

This is not how these sorts of things go down, with Middle East/North Africa being a great example with the recent string of rebellions against Governments.

In fact, what is so interesting about the USA is how soldiers take an oath to uphold the Constitution. My family has a lot of people in the military, and a number of my friends are State Troopers. They are all very aware of what is happening in the US and talk about it frequently. Their friends and comrades are also aware. If it came down to some sort of Police State, it would not be Government versus citizens as you envision, it would be downright civil war with military personnel and dangerous weapon hardware on both sides.
[/COLOR][/URL]

Owning a gun will not protect you from the Government.

Also, why would anyone want to live in a country where they are terrified of its Government? If things get bad enough in the U.S. I'll simply leave. Why stay in a sh!tty country? Life is too short.

The reason we have so many immigrants is because people realized their country was pile of sh!t and LEFT. :crackup:

 

[goundra]

owning a gun CAN make you the sort of threat that Big brother can neither STAND nor stand against. Asi I have said many times before, your gun mostly just covers your butt while you initiate fire, poison, infighting, starvation, homemade or stolen explosives, disease, sabatage, etc, to deny Big bro access to enough resources to stay in power. Just because YOU can't imagine ways to effectively fight big Bro doesn't mean that it can't be done. it just means that you aint very smart, and don't have any balls, that's all.

 

[PlayHer Man]

It's not meant to "protect", but to allow citizens en masse to revolt, whether through direct confrontation or through guerilla warfare.

And to anyone who thinks it does not work, all they need to do is look at history to learn they are wrong.

Even modern history shows examples of this, including Afghanistan, Libya, Egypt, etc,... Two of those in the last three years. And Syria the latest addition which is ripped in civil war at this very moment.

Yes, guns in the hands of citizens make perfect sense for self-defense from criminals, and for a mechanism to begin a revolution should such a situation warrant.

Why not just go to a better country?

The U.S. is far too divided culturally, racially, politically, and religiously for a "revolution" to work here. The people in the U.S. who want to start a revolution are a small minority. Being small wouldn't matter if they didn't come across "crazy" to the majority (and to the media.. which basically controls public opinion). If the media isn't on your side.. you have a lot of work to do. Sad but true.

Another problem is some of these people are "revolting" against are their fellow citizens (Liberals, Obama voters, immigrants, minorities, etc.)

The first goal the "revolutionaries" must accomplish is convincing the majority of the population that their cause is justified. To do this successfully, they have to stop attacking and marginalizing their fellow Americans. Saying "its the in the constitution" isn't enough (even if it should be).

Guns won't protect you from anything more than ONE other person with a gun. If you have 3 people with guns after you.. well... time to say good bye. You're a dead man. :yes:

 

[PlayHer Man]

1. Why should have to leave? Its your country.

2. What makes you think it will always be possible?

3. Some of us are patriotic and idealistic

Its ALWAYS possible to leave a country if you are determined to do so. Unless we get as bad as Cuba.. which won't happen.

But this is why so many people think gun advocates are "crazy".. because they say things like "we won't be able to leave the country in the future."

Its hard to start a revolution when the majority of the public thinks you're crazy. This is the case right now thanks to the media.

Things like the equal rights movement worked because they had a moral higher ground to stand on. Gay rights is working because they have the "We are not hurting anyone" ground to stand on. Even Marijuana is using that platform. Gun advocates don't really have that.

Without that moral higher ground.. you won't get enough people on your side to start a revolution. The majority of American's support gun ownership, but most people DON'T own guns and don't want to. They would still rather give up some of their rights to have the Governments protection (whatever that is).

Just saying... revolution ain't gonna happen. Not with all the division in this country. American's will eat each other before they attack the Government as one unified group.

 

[PlayHer Man]

Three points.

• Only 10% of the population participated in the Revolutionary War in the US. Yet still they got the job done. You don't need a majority.
• You don't need a majority to win a rebellion. If you had the numbers on your side, then it would not be called a rebellion.
• As I mentioned before, recent history in MENA shows it is absolutely possible to rebel against an established Government.

True.. of course you can rebel against the established government. In fact, you can walk outside and do it RIGHT NOW.

Its not a question of "can you rebel" its a question of "can you win?". The answer is NO if guns are your weapon. Guns will not protect you from the government. Not in this country.

Governments give into angry mobs when they have reasonable demands and some level of moral higher ground. There needs to be a clear and specific goal.. not something broad like "We want small government!" or "We won't give up our freedom". You'll just get shot and thrown in jail.

Sorry but this "over throw the Government via guns" stuff is retarded. Its stupid, it won't work and it will get you killed. Sounds like the product of watching too many Die Hard movies.

What are you going to do? Show up in DC with guns and make demands like terrorists? Who are you going to shoot? What is your definition of victory?

I understand having a gun for personal protection. But to revolt against the Government and think you can win that way is Juvenile and laughable. :crackup:

 

[LiveFreeX]

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/asiapacific/10-dead-as-bangladesh-islamists-demand-b/664398.html

Not really helping my case any here BUT guns may have stopped this. I think I would just going to move to a more christian oriented country (MEXICO) though that still thinks women are those born with female genitalia and capable of having babies... sh1t is getting out of control. The USA is the biggest contributor to Political Correctness and all those ICBMs aren't doing fvck all to curb it.

BTW for you gun lovers out there, cite me some places in the world where guns have helped stop Political Correctness and the moral degradation of society.

 

[PlayHer Man]

You're really wearing your ignorance of history as a badge of honor, its shocking.

When you have no counter argument to attack someone making a claim you don't agree with.. the next best move is: insult them.

Good job. Makes you look smart.

You called me ignorant.. that must mean I'm wrong.

:crackup: :crackup:

As I said before, but for some reason you keep ignoring.

Recent history would prove you completely wrong, using MENA as an example.

Look at Libya and Egypt. Civilian rebellions that resulted in the overthrowing of their Government.

Won't work in the United States for reasons I have already stated but you keep ignoring.

 

[PlayHer Man]

I didn't ignore it, I told you why it was wrong. It absolutely could happen in the US. There is nothing special about this place compared to any other place on Earth. We are still bound by the predispositions of humans. Racial makeup does not matter, nor does ideology. Because, again, it only requires 10% of the population to partake. So yes, it absolutely CAN happen here.







Now, if you are arguing that it WILL NOT happen here. Then I cannot disagree with that statement. At least, not at the point in time.


The number one factor in keeping US citizens inert while the nation crumbles around them......is apathy.

Apathy due to the bread and circuses, just like Rome. Except instead of bread, we have cheezi-poofs and budlight. Instead of circuses, we have Jersey Shore, Idol and the Kardashians.

Until those go away......the US will likely just stay asleep.

Looks like we're in full agreement (first time ever right?)

Most American's will ensure that no revolution happens simply by being lazy, delusional and timid. The standard of living will continue to decline and most people will b!tch about it but do nothing other than cast their vote for the next lying politician that promises to "fix everything" (like they all do). :crazy:

Younger generations born into a sh!ttier world won't miss the "good times" because they never experienced them. People with money and job prospects over seas will just leave the country (just like they leave neighborhoods in decline).

It will be a slow decline. I see no revolution happening. While its in the realm of POSSIBILITY.. its not likely anytime soon.

 

[PlayHer Man]

Wrong, you make these absolute statements in the face of history including modern history (as Danger pointed out) that proves otherwise. I made my argument. You've since backed off your absolutist statements if you haven't noticed.

I haven't "backed off" on anything. I had two points:

1. Revolution in the U.S. will not happen

-- Haven't changed on that.

2. Violent revolution using guns will not work

-- Haven't changed on that either.

My agreement with Danger was on the possibility of a revolution being started by the people... NOT on that idea that it would ever happen or that it would be successful if it did.

Nice try though.

 

[PlayHer Man]

I agree with your first point, for this moment in time. I absolutely disagree with your second point, with history chock full of examples.



The important point here is one of timing.


If one is to argue that we should ban guns simply because the populace is not ready to rumble.....then that is extremely short-sighted. It is making a decision for all of eternity based on the emotional state of people today.

In short, it is falling victim to "Normalcy Bias".

The reason the right to bear arms is so important is so that when the tipping point actually IS reached, the people have the means to take down the Government. It is absolutely possible, and it can happen. History shows it over and over again.

Just because the emotional state at this snapshot in time is not one of revolution, does not mean that all materials and rights conducive to future revolutions should be discarded into the trash.

I really don't disagree with this. I believe its absolutely possible for the people to over through the Government. My only point is that guns will not be the reason for success. It can be done with or without guns. That was my only point.

9/11 was done without guns for example. Guns are a pretty weak weapon in modern times. Its like believing you'll be safe from the Government as long as you have your "bow and arrow" :crackup: :crackup: REALLY BRO?

Guns are weak and limited in the destruction they can do. Guns will not over through the Government. Not in the United States anyway.

Saying something will work here because it worked over seas is like saying your football team will win in Texas because they won in New York... OR they will win in Texas because they won in Texas 50 years ago.

 

[Aristippus]

The Swiss are a good example of how gun ownership by citizens doesn't automatically mean higher crime rates. A large number of people there own guns but their crime rate is very low.

Here's a quote from Gun Politics in Switzerland, an entry in Wikipedia:

"Government statistics for the year 2010[15] records 40 homicides involving firearms, out of the 53 cases of homicide in 2010.

The annual rate of homicide by any means per 100,000 population was 0.70, which is one of the lowest in the world.[16] The annual rate of homicide by guns per 100,000 population was 0.52."

 

[Bible_Belt]

The US has a mental health care system so broken that it is virtually non-existent. People with mental problems used to get confined to treatment hospitals. But we got tired of paying for it all, so we closed them and just let those people fend for themselves. Usually they end up in jail, and unlike the hospital system, the prison system is much more profitable.

But sometimes the mentally ill are smart enough to keep functioning in society and stay out of jail. Those are the ones who turn into mass murderers. It's still cheaper to let all these shootings occur than it is to build a decent mental health care system, which is why nothing is going to change.

 

[goundra]

we don't NEED the moral groun or the people. We need, at most 1% of the 60 million gun owners each to whack 10 of big Bros thugs, spread over year, and that will be the end of it. and WHAT country offers our standard of living,our freedom,, our climate, etc, for a lower cost per person per year, hmm. ? that's almost no country in the world where the comman man can have a gun, go hunting as he wishs, wear a concealed pistol, have reloadig componets and .22 ammo out of his ears, etc, as well as a decent means of making a living. If there were such a country, I'd have been there 30 years ago.

 

[speed dawg]

The US has a mental health care system so broken that it is virtually non-existent. People with mental problems used to get confined to treatment hospitals. But we got tired of paying for it all, so we closed them and just let those people fend for themselves. Usually they end up in jail, and unlike the hospital system, the prison system is much more profitable.

But sometimes the mentally ill are smart enough to keep functioning in society and stay out of jail. Those are the ones who turn into mass murderers. It's still cheaper to let all these shootings occur than it is to build a decent mental health care system, which is why nothing is going to change.

Riiiiiiight.

They got confined to mental care institutions AFTER they committed heinous crimes. Now they get put in jail or to death, where they belong. The citizens shouldn't have to pay for that crap. And at any rate, most of the time those asylums turned into crazed experimentation labs for psychotic doctors who belonged in there with them.

Mental illness is the biggest farce out there.

 

[Bible_Belt]

Mental illness is the biggest farce out there.

So mass murderers don't have mental problems? riiiiight.

The Batman shooter kid was calling his therapist before he shot up the theater. Under the old involuntary commitment laws, he would in all likelihood have been locked up before he could kill. The Newtown shooter kid creeped everybody out for a long time, too. Mental health care could have prevented those shootings, which would have also prevented the current mass hysteria to either ban or hoard guns.

 

[SamTheHobit]

What guns do you guys own?