There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING you can do without an IOI

[sighsigh]

Stop trying to pick up chicks who haven't given you an IOI (indicator of interest). If you've interacted with her in a platonic manner, and she's not giving you an IOI, then you have LOST. She WILL NOT reciprocate if you engage her in a sexual manner (i.e. asking her out). Period.

But you've only lost the battle. Not the war. You need to change tactics to build up her IL. You need to do something different to show that you're high value. Look better. Act better. I don't know. Change something. Keep in mind there's always the chance that there's nothing you can do to raise her IL. (But you should only resign yourself to that after you've repeatedly attempted to demonstrate your value).

You DO NOT need to initially act sexually in order for her to gauge your value and have it determine her IL. This can happen entirely on the platonic level. Do not first go in giving her the impression that you are simply there to pick her up. Rather, first only engage her in a platonic manner. She will notice how you look; how you speak; how you carry yourself, and so on. In other words, she will gauge your value. This will build up her IL (hopefully). Once she's giving you those IOIs, it is then, and only then, that you can approach sexually.

A lot of people think the pickup game naturally comes with a lot of rejection. It's supposedly a numbers game: if you approach hundreds of random women and succeed with a small percentage of them, then you've done well. But I disagree. If you are getting rejected a lot, then you're doing it wrong. You should hardly ever get rejected. And you should make this happen by knowing who you should ask out, and who you should leave the f*ck alone.

 

[Renegade357]

You should hardly ever get rejected.

Yeah, I agree with this 100%. It goes back to that saying "Use a sniper rifle not a shotgun." You gotta learn how to pick up on their signals indicating to you that it's ok to approach. Once you get a green light generally you will not fail to at least have and hold her attention long enough to ask for the phone number.

I only get rejected flat out if I approach without any signals.

 

[Stagger Lee]

I agree. Either she's already interested in you because of your looks or she's not. What you say, within reason, isn't going to make much difference, and most all of the game tactics is just mental masturbation.

Now, maybe not every girl that would be attracted/interested in you will throw out IOIs or least not clear IOI before you approach her and you converse even platonically for a bit. But if you were to open her and she doesn't seem very receptive, then there's little chance that anything you say or do is going to make her interested. Also, you will not successfully pick up every girl that gives you an IOI, but the odds are much better and the rejection is much softer.

But the bottomline remains, that a girl has to be interested in your looks first and will generally throw some kind of IOI if even a subtle one. You may screw up this initial attraction/interest but you can not create it if it's not already there with words and tactics. And by screw it up, I don't mean from failing to be C+F, dominant/sexual/alpha, or tactics xyz. I mean with just being platonic screw it up with maybe how your voice sounds, how you say things and how outgoing you are might not be what she expected from you.


Let me tell you what I've seen from cold approaching many, many girls primarily in night clubs. On moment of approach about 90% of the time they look at my face for a brief moment and from there how responsive or not they are and the fate is sealed from there. If they decide it's no go from looks they often times will eject fairly quickly or I will because I sense it. I could talk more or use tactic xyz but at best it would only slightly prolong the inevitable. One could consider if saying something different or being more upbeat, talking or confident would make a difference, but you just can't really create attraction that's not there.

 

[Mike32ct]

Solid post.

The only caveat is some girls might not give an IOI UNTIL you approach.

I had a few chicks that initially seemed neutral or didn't give a sh@t either way. But when I approached them, they warmed up very quickly. This might happen if you are decent looking or sort of cute but not hot.

So the ideal is to get an IOI before you approach. The next best thing is an IOI as soon as you start talking to her. (For example, she seems friendly, smiley, and helps you with the conversation. If you get one word answers, just eject. It's a lost cause.)

 

[sylvester the cat]

well, what if you ask a girl out who DID give tons of IOIs and still said no or flakes on you?

 

[Iceberg]

Solid post.

The only caveat is some girls might not give an IOI UNTIL you approach.

I had a few chicks that initially seemed neutral or didn't give a sh@t either way. But when I approached them, they warmed up very quickly. This might happen if you are decent looking or sort of cute but not hot.

So the ideal is to get an IOI before you approach. The next best thing is an IOI as soon as you start talking to her. (For example, she seems friendly, smiley, and helps you with the conversation. If you get one word answers, just eject. It's a lost cause.)

That's a good point.

The OP makes a good point. But I worry that some less experienced men might use "lack of IOIs" as an excuse to not approach women. Sometimes the IOI doesn't happen because, well, the woman doesn't know you're there. At a bar, a classroom, a party.

Sometimes it helps to start a conversation, regardless of IOIs just to see if you get any favorable responses. I'm not saying go balls-to-the-wall with sexual innuendos and number closes. But just a general, social, friendly conversation to see if this girl wants to speak to you.

 

[NewAndImproved]

I agree mostly with the OP but I don't think in my earlier years at this, I picked up on the more subtle IOIs. A girl opening you is too blatant, a girl staring at you and smiling is obvious.

But before I actually started approaching hard regardless of initial feedback or invitation, I wouldn't have gone for the more subtle IOIs... Why? They were too easy to explain away... I mean maybe that girl is standing near me because she's interested, but maybe she's also waiting for some dude/her girl to bring her a drink from the bar.

Now I've developed a more efficient method of approaching that definitely looks around for IOIs but I feel like before I got fairly good, I don't think the OPs advice would be the greatest. You can't trust your instincts when your only reference point is to assume the negative. You just gotta get out there regardless and experience a lot of rejection... but rejection that is never as bad as you imagined.

 

[Renegade357]

well, what if you ask a girl out who DID give tons of IOIs and still said no or flakes on you?

Happens all the time. Usually it's because they were either way drunk when you talked to them or they aren't single.

 

[sylvester the cat]

Happens all the time. Usually it's because they were either way drunk when you talked to them or they aren't single.

What if they weren't drunk and were single...?

 

[Iceberg]

What if they weren't drunk and were single...?

They're women. Notoriously flaky and prone to rapid changes of heart.

I think the problem is that when men see a problem (i.e. women's flakiness) they think that there's a logical path toward correcting the problem.

When it comes to women, it's best to just roll your eyes and move onto the next one rather than decipher the cause of their change in attitude/flakiness.

 

[sylvester the cat]

They're women. Notoriously flaky and prone to rapid changes of heart.

I think the problem is that when men see a problem (i.e. women's flakiness) they think that there's a logical path toward correcting the problem.

When it comes to women, it's best to just roll your eyes and move onto the next one rather than decipher the cause of their change in attitude/flakiness.

yes.. agreed. i almost got sucked in again.

 

[Renegade357]

What if they weren't drunk and were single...?

Best not to analyze. Just read and react appropriately. Your reaction to flakes is to find the next girl.

 

[ArcBound]

That's a good point.

The OP makes a good point. But I worry that some less experienced men might use "lack of IOIs" as an excuse to not approach women.

Yep. A lot of guys will come in and agree with the OP and justify their failures. Fact is you are not going to always get an IOI.

Only two IOI's matter, if she goes out on a DATE with you and if she lets you escalate. All other IOI's are moot.

Sure if a girl gives you a million IOI's from the get go, it means you have a very high chance of succeeding. But as Iceberg said, if the girl doesn't know you exist then she can't give IOI's. You have to go up to girls in your social circle/ party/ workplace/ whatever even when they don't give you IOI's.

Best case scenario everything works out perfectly. Worst case scenario, people see you talking with an attractive women and you only get more practice and experience. Win-freaking-win. And only when you have a lot of experience with lots of girls can you tell which ones need to be focused on from the get go.

 

[sylvester the cat]

Yep. A lot of guys will come in and agree with the OP and justify their failures. Fact is you are not going to always get an IOI.

Only two IOI's matter, if she goes out on a DATE with you and if she lets you escalate. All other IOI's are moot.

Sure if a girl gives you a million IOI's from the get go, it means you have a very high chance of succeeding. But as Iceberg said, if the girl doesn't know you exist then she can't give IOI's. You have to go up to girls in your social circle/ party/ workplace/ whatever even when they don't give you IOI's.

Best case scenario everything works out perfectly. Worst case scenario, people see you talking with an attractive women and you only get more practice and experience. Win-freaking-win. And only when you have a lot of experience with lots of girls can you tell which ones need to be focused on from the get go.

that is probably the most succinct and helpful description i have ever come across.

 

[thevilittletroll]

i view it like this, ioi's are great, they make it easy for you to continue escalating and to know where you are in the seduction process. if you're not getting ioi's you need to test for them. some girls are harder to read and game then others. the most fool proof tests for ioi's are physical escalation. if she lets you escalate its an ioi. if she moves somewhere with you, its an ioi. the key is to always lead. if she doesnt follow, she's not interested, do not go back and chase her.

 

[Renegade357]

Yep. A lot of guys will come in and agree with the OP and justify their failures. Fact is you are not going to always get an IOI.

It comes with experience. I would never tell a noob to just sit back and wait for signals because he wouldn't even know the signals if he saw them. Eventually after you get a mixture of wins and losses you start comparing and seeing the differences between the ones who liked you and the ones who didn't. More experienced guys know how to get into a position to get the IOI and know when to strike. That's all I'm saying.

 

[ArcBound]

It comes with experience. I would never tell a noob to just sit back and wait for signals because he wouldn't even know the signals if he saw them. Eventually after you get a mixture of wins and losses you start comparing and seeing the differences between the ones who liked you and the ones who didn't. More experienced guys know how to get into a position to get the IOI and know when to strike. That's all I'm saying.

But Renegade to get that mixture of wins and losses that gives you the gift of experience you need to play the numbers game, something the OP says not to do. And that is where I disagree with the OP. You have to do it at one point.

And IOI's still aren't completely reliable even if you are experienced. They might increase the chance you will succeed. They might also be a false positive. How many threads are started in Sosuave about so called attention whvres? Or the threads that go "Is she into me or friendly?" All this stems from the reliance on IOI's. The only IOI's necessary ever is if she goes out with you and lets you escalate.

Everything else is too much analyzing.

 

[Renegade357]

An experienced guy knows how to get the IOI without having to kamakazi in.

 

[sighsigh]

Nowhere in my post did I say you shouldn't approach a strange woman who hasn't given you an IOI. You SHOULD approach her. But you should only do it platonically. Not sexually. You only approach sexually when you get the IOI. I am not giving an excuse for you to wimp out on introducing yourself to an unknown woman.

 

[nismo-4]

well, what if you ask a girl out who DID give tons of IOIs and still said no or flakes on you?

That's called an attention wh0re.

The best IOI you can get is getting laid. Either the attraction is there or it ain't. Take IOI's with a grain of salt because women know them already, and can choose when to use them to attract a man. Just like they seem to choose what tactics will work on them and what won't.

Case closed.