The ultimite martial artist part 1-theory

[Beatnik_666]

The fighter is more important then the school. A fighter with no desire to be the best he can be, wont care if the techniques he is learning are impractical. Sometimes the training and the mentality of dojo/gyms/schools can very extremely whilst being of the same style.

So dont make the mistake of throwing out everything good in traditional arts, just because of a few new developments. Traditional styles were mainly limited because there was no mass media, no mass system of transport that allowed styles that arose in different areas to compare notes. The benefits of this age have forced the martial arts to evolve. But that doesnt make the past irrelevent. There were brawlers back in the traditionals heyday. Times were tougher, inefficient arts would of died against a brawler who suddenly felt on the battlefeild that he would like to see his kids again. Bad arts are only perpetrated in societies that do not posses the violent environment needed to force martial arts to evolve.

Have you ever been or had a training partner go see the traditional schools? They are in third world countries! the training mentality is completely different. the real "traditional" schools, in their traditional countries have training practices that are brutal compared to our soft western society. No option to sue a school in china. My wing chun training partner went to china for a few months and trained. On his return his whole "Style" had changed to a more violent dominant way. He said for the first month, he would sit in his hotel room before practice, ****ting himself the training was getting harder and rougher by the day.... Thats the norm in those countries (and the instructors were going soft to get a feel of the students)

In my view, traditional styles got ****ed up when they started to become extensions of religeous/spiritual systems and had to conform to the dogma. No school is irrelevent, No method is wrong, Only the fighteres ability to sift through what is relevent for him and adapt it all together.

I hope anyone looking for a martial art would realise that there is forums dedicated to this topic all over the web expressing views from many styles and many different view points that would give a more thorough and honest view of the arts.

This thread merely shows that the topic is too large and extensive for there to be any real "ultimate martial art/s"... It merely shows the views of one person. This whole thread, was a excercise in futility on your part.

 

[Jinn]

Re: Re: The ultamite martial artist part 1-theory

Originally posted by Drug_L0rd
oohhh, i beg to differ. not that i do judo, but you honestly think that it's ineffective? i'm not talking about kung fu, karate and the rest, just judo. ofcourse you wont be an exeptional fighter doing just judo but many of the UFCers have judo experience under their belt.

btw, you've told us all what NOT to do. why not instead tell us what we should do. and just incase you wanna know, i do boxing.



hahaha, i can't believe im reading this. you're saying based on your experience you're a better fighter than when you trained with a fully qualified, proffesional trainer? you're trainers were probably just bums off the street or something because that's just not logical.

those "high quality" classes are what i call McDojos. they just charge money and teach you jacksh!t. to avoid them it's simple, keep your eyes open.

In the second half of this post, I mentioned that under limited circumstances, judo is an effective martial art. The thing about judo is that the world's best judo fighters are among the world's best grapplers, but the rest are nobody's unless they do hard ass cross training and judo is just a secondary grappling art for them.

When I said "high quality classes" I was referring to names like the gracie clan or S.L.O kickboxing.

When did I say anything against training under a fully trained professional?

 

[Jinn]

Originally posted by Beatnik_666
The fighter is more important then the school. A fighter with no desire to be the best he can be, wont care if the techniques he is learning are impractical. Sometimes the training and the mentality of dojo/gyms/schools can very extremely whilst being of the same style.

So dont make the mistake of throwing out everything good in traditional arts, just because of a few new developments. Traditional styles were mainly limited because there was no mass media, no mass system of transport that allowed styles that arose in different areas to compare notes. The benefits of this age have forced the martial arts to evolve. But that doesnt make the past irrelevent. There were brawlers back in the traditionals heyday. Times were tougher, inefficient arts would of died against a brawler who suddenly felt on the battlefeild that he would like to see his kids again. Bad arts are only perpetrated in societies that do not posses the violent environment needed to force martial arts to evolve.

Have you ever been or had a training partner go see the traditional schools? They are in third world countries! the training mentality is completely different. the real "traditional" schools, in their traditional countries have training practices that are brutal compared to our soft western society. No option to sue a school in china. My wing chun training partner went to china for a few months and trained. On his return his whole "Style" had changed to a more violent dominant way. He said for the first month, he would sit in his hotel room before practice, ****ting himself the training was getting harder and rougher by the day.... Thats the norm in those countries (and the instructors were going soft to get a feel of the students)

In my view, traditional styles got ****ed up when they started to become extensions of religeous/spiritual systems and had to conform to the dogma. No school is irrelevent, No method is wrong, Only the fighteres ability to sift through what is relevent for him and adapt it all together.

I hope anyone looking for a martial art would realise that there is forums dedicated to this topic all over the web expressing views from many styles and many different view points that would give a more thorough and honest view of the arts.

This thread merely shows that the topic is too large and extensive for there to be any real "ultimate martial art/s"... It merely shows the views of one person. This whole thread, was a excercise in futility on your part.

If you want to go to a third world country to learn karate, be my guest, but I'd rather do it in my own home and with the help of a gym and a qualified instructor if at all possible.

I'm not talking about the ultimate martial art, I'm talking about how you can become a deadly fighter in an efficient way.

 

[Soshyopathe]

Originally posted by ultrashogun
By the way, Bruce Lee never did any shaolin style.

BS, he demonstrates the snake system in one of his movies.

 

[Soshyopathe]

Re: Re: The ultamite martial artist part 1-theory

Originally posted by Drug_L0rd
those "high quality" classes are what i call McDojos.

BAAAAAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!

 

[Soshyopathe]

I still think all you are basing this on is what you've seen in America. Like Beatnik said, it's quite hardcore in asia, and American instructors are usually pusses. There is a place for traditional MA.

In the streets of USA, you will get attacked with streetfighting, because that's what we know. So you make the generalization that modern MA are superior, because they are more like our modern street fighting no-holds-barred. You can't fight fire with fire. I won't street-fight a streetfighter, I won't box a boxer. Traditional MA is for defeating untrained styles much like your mugger or drunken acquaintance will use.

In a week or so, I will test my philosophies against a Krav Maga practitioner. I'll get back to you on what I've learned, since it's the most modern, trained style that I have access to. I'll be sure to test the traditional methods as well as modern methods. Hopefully your part 2 will be up.

 

[ultrashogun]

BS, he demonstrates the snake system in one of his movies.

Dont be so ignorant, Lee was a martial artist and he was an ACTOR. He played that role with the snake system just like Christopher Reeves plays Superman.

Trust me, Ive read alot about Lee.

Maybe you need to learn the difference between reality and fiction.

 

[ultrashogun]

Actually here is a cool artical about Bruce Lee.

 

[Jinn]

When I wrote this post, I made the mistake of thinking most people would agree with me, but now I see that I have too many skeptics and will have to do far more explaining than just 2 different posts can do. I don't know how many posts it'll take to cover all of the ground that needs to be covered, but I would probably be best off starting over

no more responses people, let this thread die (or mods close it or whatever)

 

[Soshyopathe]

Originally posted by ultrashogun
Maybe you need to learn the difference between reality and fiction.

To demonstrate the style, you must know the style. Don't be such a dyck.

 

[RIchardo]

hmmm... alot of what i see on here is bull****.

I do agree most of the traditional schools have fallen apart in terms of making good fighters, but thats not to say the styles are bad...... because i have run across some really realy tough tkd and kung fu people in my time. But ive also run across alot more that werent.

What it comes down to is how the school/style trains.

To be a good school, or style, pad work, bag work, sparring and conditioning are the all important factors. If they do not do those, then you will not be a complete fighter. Kyoshkin is a very very good style because they train hard like the karatekas of old and fight full contact (although they should allow punches to the head), other karate styles could prove as effective if they trained as hard.

I personally do boxing and kickboxing and those teach you how to fight no nonsense. However..... i have my original backround with Kung Fu and it wasnt complete crap like alot of people say. Now, my kwoon didnt have contact sparring, but we did a lot of drills and movement which made my reaction skills superb, and my flexibility as well. I did bag work on my own to compensate and i was still a pretty good fighter when i was in that. Now i am boxing and kickboxing alot of my kung fu training has made me have a good transition.

Cardio is the ever important factor, which goes against alot of these idiots preaching body building on this site. Being huge isnt going to make you a good fighter, in fact its gonna make you a bad one. I just had a boxing match with a dude with huge muscles, he thought hed stare me down and act hard and try to take my head off.......well he was sloppy and by round 3 he was really tired and i ktfo'd his ass. So i guess this is off tangent, but the desireable build is not one of a power lifter or body builder, its that of the lean and trim fighter.

 

[PEACEDJ]

As a martial artist for over 9 years myself, I don't recommend you to ever clinch in a fight. You clinch and the other person grabs you by your ribs and stabs you with a knife, your dead. The theory in martial arts is to specifically know what each move is design to do an for that attack to be used successfully. Remember the less you hit and more damage you do, the better fighter you are.


Now there are Grabs you can do but always remember to know what your doing, a simple punch that is done right can do more damage then a gun shot to the leg.

 

[RIchardo]

If you know how to use a clinch effectively its one of the best tools you can use. If one is adept with elbows knees and quick bursts of hooks and uppercuts , a controlling clinch could **** some **** up.

 

[Jinn]

Originally posted by Jinn
When I wrote this post, I made the mistake of thinking most people would agree with me, but now I see that I have too many skeptics and will have to do far more explaining than just 2 different posts can do. I don't know how many posts it'll take to cover all of the ground that needs to be covered, but I would probably be best off starting over

no more responses people, let this thread die (or mods close it or whatever)

 

[NewMan]

????

"Victory over yourself is greater than victory over your opponent"

The ultimate martial artist? How come people associate martial arts with just fighting prowess? There is much more to martial arts than just fighting - and whats the most bad ass style out there........

What's happening here, is that people are saying so-and-so is the best martial arts because I can use it to kick anyones ass. WRONG.

Firstly - if you want to talk about the fighting aspect of martial arts - it's not about fighting, it's about self defense. Most modern styles (and almost all Karate) focus on agressive actions. It's almost always concentrating on the fact that you want to harm someone. Sure, if you meet someone else in the street that wants to hurt you (and you want to hurt them), then it's probably valid to talk about which style would be the best to use. But, you theory does not hold water when you talk about someone who does not want to harm another - but merly wished to self defend. One of the best tactics to use in the street is tricks and traps. It's all about survival - so you trap your apponent. A good example of this is old Chinesse masters who practiced drunk-mans Kung Fu. These wouls pretend to be drunk - that way people would leave them alone - but if someone did mess with them, then they already have the upper hand because they've tricked their opponents into thinking that they are drunk. Similar tricks and traps can be used today.

What this post has been talking about is 2 people stepping into a ring and fighting it out.

Just remeber, there is much more to martial arts than fighting. Traditional martial arts (I'm talking about Kung Fu, Shoalin and the like) when studied in it's whole can be used very effectively in the self defence mode.

 

[FlyGuy]

You say you want an intelligent discussion, well then how about bringing some fact in here instead of opinion? I've yet to see you really back up your claims with any sort of tangible proof. All you keep saying is that traditional styles are inferior.

Well, prove it.

I don't need to do anything but post a rebutle, I don't need facts of my own because you have nothing to discredit but opinion.

I'll say it again: Traditional styles can be just as effective if not more-so (they've been developed over thousands of years, traditional styles have what - a few generations?). The TRAINING is the most important aspect.

 

[RIchardo]

Yes , training is the most important aspect, i feel many traditional schools have gotten the bad rap because theyd rather make money off lazy people who want to think they know how to defend themselves...... a good example of which is karate schools now, theyll hand you a black belt in 2 years even if your fat , suck as long as you pay on time..... back whne my kickboxing instructor did Full Contact karate, 1 out of every 800 people was a black belt....... so it really makes you wonder..

As for the man posting about how martial arts are for self defense, you are correct, but how do you know if you can defend yourself unless you actually......ding ding.....FIGHT? Thats why ring based martial arts have proven to be effective, because you actually fight......which you have to do to actualy know you CAN fight.

 

[NewMan]

RIchardo


Ring fighting is sport fighting at best - Ohhh look I scored a point. If some guy meets me and throesw one of those sport kicks, I'd have him for lunch. "Real fighting" - there's hardly ever a kick above knee height.

Training cna simulate self defence situations - but your right, it's not like the real thing. But you can done some protective equipment and have at it.

 

[FlyGuy]

You can still be relatively defensible kicking up to waist level from what I've found. Anything above that requires excellent timing and/or a setup but its still a gamble. And I'd have to agree that point sparring CAN be utterly useless training for real fighting, it depends on the rules of the ring among other things. I've seen some brutal karate matches in point sparring that are really close to real-life fights, and I've seen some that are a joke.

 

[Jinn]

you guys are ****ing stupid, shut the **** up already