Self-improvement is considered the "white magic" of seduction based education, while PUA skills that encompass NLP, hypnosis, quick closing, and gimmicks are considered the "black magic" of seduction based education. Neither, IMO, can stand on it's own. The book, "The Game" proved as much as the characters experienced enormous highs, only to find that they placed their own wants, beyond sexuality, on the back shelf for baggage-toating sluts.
Respective Goals:
DJ/SOSUAVE/SELF IMPROVEMENT = improve oneself through the man's wants; attracting a woman that want's him.
PUA MATERIAL = generally speaking to get laid, but have the confidence of getting any woman, any where.
Respective Methods:
DJ/SOSUAVE/SELF IMPROVEMENT = generally devoid of canned lines/routes; relies more on basic, human interaction than palm-reading, canned lines, NLP, and the like
PUA MATERIAL = involves and intricate study of personal relationships, NLP, the mind, elements of hypnosis, and mating theory.
Time Line For Results =
DJ/SOSUAVE/SELF IMPROVEMENT = tends to be more consistent, and a shorter-time line as it does not rely on overtly technical abilities, such as learning routines, learning the definitions of the community.
PUA MATERIAL = the timeline tends to be longer, as one must not only act, but study the material indepth as to be "robotic" in the "field". however, once it is ingrained, the man can expand upon and bring value back to the community, as well as have purportedly quicker success night after night.
There's misperceptions between BOTH sides of the communities, and I'm sure there's more to it than this. There may be more "sides" or methods, although any branches would tend to branch from these 2 trees. NLP, hypnosis, and other similar sciences would fall under the PUA material, while self improvement, activity, involvement, and spirituality would fall under DJ/SELF IMPROVEMENT.
Neither is mutually exclusive. One doesn't negate the other, but yet SUPPORTS and IMPROVES the other.
Sole-sarging-guys make sarging a way of life, to where their only interaction with anyone is through the veil of sarging and picking up women. It's like a REAL LIVE VIDEO GAME, which would make sense, because many of the guys who first began PUA-based material, were quite, well, nerdy. They were so smart and megalomaniacal that they could understand the intricacies of the mind, and then teach it to men for profit. It WOULD take a mind like someone who enjoys leveling in World of Warcraft for such a community to grow up. It wasn't so much the conquest of getting women, but that THEY could get these techniques, learn them, and then use them at will.
On the flipside, guys who get into DJ/SELFIMPROVEMENT work can be, well, lethargic, because they feel that if "they're the prize," although they don't necessarily care for themselves that way, they should just NATURALLY get the girl like a clan chieftain. Moreover, they can get caught up in the same cycle of IMPROVEMENT, of buying more books, of altering one's lifestyle, that it APPEARS you're making progress, when in fact you're just spinning the tires. The ILLUSION is that the man is buying books, reading them, and being involved, but he himself hasn't progressed in any material way that can be measured. His own happiness may only be complacency because he found some "religion", one that is never-ending, so he can never be dubbed a failure, and therefore can forever spin his wheels. The biggest "trigger" here are guys starting and re-starting diets, workout programs, budgets, savings programs, re-writing goals list, etc. And by saying you're a DJ or on the SELF IMPROVEMENT path, is like a PUA asking how many girls you just sarged, what your number is, and only relating to you as a PUA. Guys here do it, too, but it might not be as flagrant. Rather than flaunting women, they flaunt possessions or achievements, and don't value the achievement, but they value the kudos they get from guys, or the fact they one-upped someone else. It wasn't done for the sake of their own desire, but to achieve some OTHER end.
So neither is good or bad, nor is one more effective, NOR, can they stand alone. Both have their vices and virtues. Each have their own MEASURABLES of success or lack of success, and their own GURUS as well.
But what can we learn that integrates BOTH philosophies into one UNIFIED, and powerful action plan?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
What CAN be learned, through the tenets of the respective programs is this...
PUA material relies HEAVILY on routines that are based on being "under the radar" as well as helping the guy by giving him a crutch. They also rely fairly heavy on NLP and some hypnosis, and for the faint at heart, it does work, but it's ability to work is DEPENDENT on the user, not the person who it's being used ON. Things such as understanding tone, mirroring, eye-movement, subtle communication, how the brain works, anchoring, and so forth DO have powerful additives when combined with the RIGHT person. As noted in many books, such techniques, when understood at deep levels, can ruin a person, just like a woman who loves a guy too much can be damaged by the wrong, abusive man. A man who doesn't possess good intentions, just by subtle actions can ruin a woman. A man who possesses some level of power over her mind can do irreparable damage.
-NLP. This isn't an OVERNIGHT success program, BUT, in learning it, and seeing how it turned Neil Strauss and other's into someone different, you can see that it might work. It would take many books, free or purchased, notes and application to grasp it, but it is interesting and has its basis in many sciences.
-Hypnosis. Just b/c this 1 might not work off the bat, doesn't mean anything. I've done it before to myself for certain things and been blown away. Hypnosis also deals with HOW you say things and WHAT you say, which is VERY important when communicating with women. Truly, if you know the language which they hear, you can make her warm up just by her tone. Hypnosis also reverts back to NLP, which categorizes HOW people learn and what they hear. Some people are visual, and by knowing what triggers they provide that demonstrate what they are, you can then tailor your words to those words that grab their mind and their attention.
-Routines and lines. Although I don't line anything canned, the fact they go "under" the radar works to a strong degree. Who knows, maybe Mystery and Strauss were born that way and it only took something like PUA material to bring it out. Or maybe everyone all the world around can learn it. Either or, you won't know if you don't do it, and do it ALOT.
-Peacocking. You can take this to mean a variety of things. I take it to mean dressing as MUCH LIKE me as I want. Personally, I'm not dressing in drag, like so many guys seem to do, but also BLENDING in as another guy is boring, too. Pulling a page from this book, the PUA material asks that you PLAY up your qualities and boldly and proudly display who you are, regardless of what that means. Going to ANF, while cool clothes, only ensures you look another ANF guy and are LABELED accordingly.
-Socializing. They put themselves on par with everyone else, although much of their study about the PUA world is built on their lowered self-esteem. What props it up is the routines and expected results that following the program can provide. As evidenced by the crash of many pua's, whether in relationship, marriage, or just by successive failures, NOT pulling women leads to a selfesteem CHINK, and the questioning of "What is wrong with me?" The better question would be..."What is wrong with her for not BEING with me?" They don't see anyone as higher or lower. They'll talk to the guys to pivot to the women, or the dj's, to be connected at clubs. And why shouldn't you socialize? Some do it for gain, some other ends.
- Escalating. They embrace elements of basic psychology that work, and with rules like the 3 second rule, guys can't help but succeed when applying this to the work in SELF IMPROVEMENT. Kino, and escalation help to understand the MICRO picture of the bigger picture which is YOU, the MACRO world.
Which is my seqway into SELF IMPROVEMENT. I've generally never found a guy who was awful at being friends with other guys and being comfortable with himself around strangers to NOT be able to meet SOME woman/women. I do know some real wall flowers who are timid at saying things around even me, and these guys are unbelievably still virgins or never had a gf (though being a virging is good, I'm just saying). I've watched the videos on DyD and mystery workshops, and the guys have a problem with a basic interview...how can they not see the problem?
A-Unit
Cont'd
Respective Goals:
DJ/SOSUAVE/SELF IMPROVEMENT = improve oneself through the man's wants; attracting a woman that want's him.
PUA MATERIAL = generally speaking to get laid, but have the confidence of getting any woman, any where.
Respective Methods:
DJ/SOSUAVE/SELF IMPROVEMENT = generally devoid of canned lines/routes; relies more on basic, human interaction than palm-reading, canned lines, NLP, and the like
PUA MATERIAL = involves and intricate study of personal relationships, NLP, the mind, elements of hypnosis, and mating theory.
Time Line For Results =
DJ/SOSUAVE/SELF IMPROVEMENT = tends to be more consistent, and a shorter-time line as it does not rely on overtly technical abilities, such as learning routines, learning the definitions of the community.
PUA MATERIAL = the timeline tends to be longer, as one must not only act, but study the material indepth as to be "robotic" in the "field". however, once it is ingrained, the man can expand upon and bring value back to the community, as well as have purportedly quicker success night after night.
There's misperceptions between BOTH sides of the communities, and I'm sure there's more to it than this. There may be more "sides" or methods, although any branches would tend to branch from these 2 trees. NLP, hypnosis, and other similar sciences would fall under the PUA material, while self improvement, activity, involvement, and spirituality would fall under DJ/SELF IMPROVEMENT.
Neither is mutually exclusive. One doesn't negate the other, but yet SUPPORTS and IMPROVES the other.
Sole-sarging-guys make sarging a way of life, to where their only interaction with anyone is through the veil of sarging and picking up women. It's like a REAL LIVE VIDEO GAME, which would make sense, because many of the guys who first began PUA-based material, were quite, well, nerdy. They were so smart and megalomaniacal that they could understand the intricacies of the mind, and then teach it to men for profit. It WOULD take a mind like someone who enjoys leveling in World of Warcraft for such a community to grow up. It wasn't so much the conquest of getting women, but that THEY could get these techniques, learn them, and then use them at will.
On the flipside, guys who get into DJ/SELFIMPROVEMENT work can be, well, lethargic, because they feel that if "they're the prize," although they don't necessarily care for themselves that way, they should just NATURALLY get the girl like a clan chieftain. Moreover, they can get caught up in the same cycle of IMPROVEMENT, of buying more books, of altering one's lifestyle, that it APPEARS you're making progress, when in fact you're just spinning the tires. The ILLUSION is that the man is buying books, reading them, and being involved, but he himself hasn't progressed in any material way that can be measured. His own happiness may only be complacency because he found some "religion", one that is never-ending, so he can never be dubbed a failure, and therefore can forever spin his wheels. The biggest "trigger" here are guys starting and re-starting diets, workout programs, budgets, savings programs, re-writing goals list, etc. And by saying you're a DJ or on the SELF IMPROVEMENT path, is like a PUA asking how many girls you just sarged, what your number is, and only relating to you as a PUA. Guys here do it, too, but it might not be as flagrant. Rather than flaunting women, they flaunt possessions or achievements, and don't value the achievement, but they value the kudos they get from guys, or the fact they one-upped someone else. It wasn't done for the sake of their own desire, but to achieve some OTHER end.
So neither is good or bad, nor is one more effective, NOR, can they stand alone. Both have their vices and virtues. Each have their own MEASURABLES of success or lack of success, and their own GURUS as well.
But what can we learn that integrates BOTH philosophies into one UNIFIED, and powerful action plan?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
What CAN be learned, through the tenets of the respective programs is this...
PUA material relies HEAVILY on routines that are based on being "under the radar" as well as helping the guy by giving him a crutch. They also rely fairly heavy on NLP and some hypnosis, and for the faint at heart, it does work, but it's ability to work is DEPENDENT on the user, not the person who it's being used ON. Things such as understanding tone, mirroring, eye-movement, subtle communication, how the brain works, anchoring, and so forth DO have powerful additives when combined with the RIGHT person. As noted in many books, such techniques, when understood at deep levels, can ruin a person, just like a woman who loves a guy too much can be damaged by the wrong, abusive man. A man who doesn't possess good intentions, just by subtle actions can ruin a woman. A man who possesses some level of power over her mind can do irreparable damage.
-NLP. This isn't an OVERNIGHT success program, BUT, in learning it, and seeing how it turned Neil Strauss and other's into someone different, you can see that it might work. It would take many books, free or purchased, notes and application to grasp it, but it is interesting and has its basis in many sciences.
-Hypnosis. Just b/c this 1 might not work off the bat, doesn't mean anything. I've done it before to myself for certain things and been blown away. Hypnosis also deals with HOW you say things and WHAT you say, which is VERY important when communicating with women. Truly, if you know the language which they hear, you can make her warm up just by her tone. Hypnosis also reverts back to NLP, which categorizes HOW people learn and what they hear. Some people are visual, and by knowing what triggers they provide that demonstrate what they are, you can then tailor your words to those words that grab their mind and their attention.
-Routines and lines. Although I don't line anything canned, the fact they go "under" the radar works to a strong degree. Who knows, maybe Mystery and Strauss were born that way and it only took something like PUA material to bring it out. Or maybe everyone all the world around can learn it. Either or, you won't know if you don't do it, and do it ALOT.
-Peacocking. You can take this to mean a variety of things. I take it to mean dressing as MUCH LIKE me as I want. Personally, I'm not dressing in drag, like so many guys seem to do, but also BLENDING in as another guy is boring, too. Pulling a page from this book, the PUA material asks that you PLAY up your qualities and boldly and proudly display who you are, regardless of what that means. Going to ANF, while cool clothes, only ensures you look another ANF guy and are LABELED accordingly.
-Socializing. They put themselves on par with everyone else, although much of their study about the PUA world is built on their lowered self-esteem. What props it up is the routines and expected results that following the program can provide. As evidenced by the crash of many pua's, whether in relationship, marriage, or just by successive failures, NOT pulling women leads to a selfesteem CHINK, and the questioning of "What is wrong with me?" The better question would be..."What is wrong with her for not BEING with me?" They don't see anyone as higher or lower. They'll talk to the guys to pivot to the women, or the dj's, to be connected at clubs. And why shouldn't you socialize? Some do it for gain, some other ends.
- Escalating. They embrace elements of basic psychology that work, and with rules like the 3 second rule, guys can't help but succeed when applying this to the work in SELF IMPROVEMENT. Kino, and escalation help to understand the MICRO picture of the bigger picture which is YOU, the MACRO world.
Which is my seqway into SELF IMPROVEMENT. I've generally never found a guy who was awful at being friends with other guys and being comfortable with himself around strangers to NOT be able to meet SOME woman/women. I do know some real wall flowers who are timid at saying things around even me, and these guys are unbelievably still virgins or never had a gf (though being a virging is good, I'm just saying). I've watched the videos on DyD and mystery workshops, and the guys have a problem with a basic interview...how can they not see the problem?
A-Unit
Cont'd
Another awesome thread