The Real World

[Tazman]

Bottom line though: Not everybody thinks they have to learn a bunch of PUA tips and tricks just to relate to another person (a female). In fact, I don't think you do either. The important things that you need to know you will find out by actually getting out and interacting with them. Be advised you may get a few skinned knees along the way. You don't learn to ride a bike without falling off a few times.

At this point I take it you're pretty much just anti-PUA, would that be correct?

While I do understand where you're coming from given most of what I see in your posts, I believe they stem from a certain level of discomfort you have with most of the typical PUA advice because you don't personally relate to it and would like to believe that it doesn't actually work because that would be akin to yanking the carpet from beneath your feet.

It's an uncomfortable truth (my opinion of course).

Game works, and it works very well (extremely well in my case). The problem I see is in your interpretation of it. It seems everything has to be an all-or-nothing when you comment on game theory.

If someone mentions being "****y-funny" you seem to take it out of context and turn it around to mean all a guy is told to do is go out, act ****y-funny and a HB10 becomes putty in his hand.

I remember you saying something about not liking the term "matrix" as it's typically used here and I cannot find any solid reasoning behind it other than what I've already mentioned about you being uncomfortable with it. I can't think of any other analogy that would be more fitting, to me it's perfect.

I guess I have a strong opinion about game theory because of how well it's worked for me. It was the catalyst to my developing interest in general psychology. I'm more at peace with living given this knowledge than at any other point in my life. It actually made me more accepting of other people and their behaviours, I feel like I get it now.

 

[DanelMadr]

I do think it's important. I don't think I'd say it's the most important. I've never agreed with the guys here who say women aren't important, you don't need them in your life, etc. I mean it's true you don't NEED them, but I can't imagine a guy living a full complete life without women it, unless he becomes a monk or something, which is about living a life of denial.

There are two schools of thought here:
1) Go out and approach 100 women, collect 50 rejections, put all your energy into it.
2) Improve yourself to be a better man and the women will follow.

I tend to be more inspired by #2. But again, when I was in my 20s, and I was obsessed with self improvement, one of the things I was looking to improve was my social life, which definitely included women, love life, sex life, etc.

Bottom line though: Not everybody thinks they have to learn a bunch of PUA tips and tricks just to relate to another person (a female). In fact, I don't think you do either. The important things that you need to know you will find out by actually getting out and interacting with them. Be advised you may get a few skinned knees along the way. You don't learn to ride a bike without falling off a few times.

That's life and it is OK.
I just wanted to point out, that treating these external symptoms can distract us from curing the cause of our problems.

That being, as I believe, lack of maturity in a sense we still possess and cherish our fragile children egos. Being approval junkies, not really in control of our mind....ego is.

I think better chance of tackling the ego has one who lives in despair and prison. Those who keep distracting themselves with career, drugs, romantic conquests or becoming a man(mimicking his behavior) are in disadvantage.

I believe it is much better to sit alone for an hour meditating than chasing skirts for the whole year.

Actually it would be the best to find the time to meditate or whatever and chase the skirts too

 

[TWG2]

I've never understood women or social interaction in general but then I'm not an average guy.

As far as what the original poster said I believe that to be true in a sense although it has a bit of a derogatory and/or insulting tone to it.

 

[zekko]

At this point I take it you're pretty much just anti-PUA, would that be correct?

Not at all. What I don't like is a certain smug sense of superiority that a lot of guys (but definitely not all) on this forum have. The idea that anyone who is not on here reading this forum has to be some sort of schmuck. We've all seen those posts where some guy here loses a girl to some guy outside the community, and he immediately concludes "I lost her to an AFC!". Like he's such a huge alpha just because he reads this forum. Like I said, not everybody here gives off this attitude, but I've never been comfortable with it

As I said in the original post, a lot of guys seem pretty well adjusted when it comes to women, without reading pickup material.

Game works, and it works very well (extremely well in my case). The problem I see is in your interpretation of it. It seems everything has to be an all-or-nothing when you comment on game theory.

If someone mentions being "****y-funny" you seem to take it out of context and turn it around to mean all a guy is told to do is go out, act ****y-funny and a HB10 becomes putty in his hand.

I use C&F all the time, probably on a daily basis. I have nothing against it, it's a good mindset. But some guys here DO come across like using a few pickup tricks turn you into an alpha male. That's what I object to

I remember you saying something about not liking the term "matrix" as it's typically used here and I cannot find any solid reasoning behind it other than what I've already mentioned about you being uncomfortable with it. I can't think of any other analogy that would be more fitting, to me it's perfect.

Well, I don't like the "matrix" metaphor because I think it's silly, and because I think that movie is overrated. There are a lot of good truths here, my point is that if you go out and live your life (and I've lived 51 years), you will come to a lot of these same conclusions anyway. I don't see them as being these "holy secrets" that some treat them as.
How many times do you suppose you have to act needy and desperate before you realize that it's a terrible idea and that you should never do it again?

I guess I have a strong opinion about game theory because of how well it's worked for me. It was the catalyst to my developing interest in general psychology. I'm more at peace with living given this knowledge than at any other point in my life. It actually made me more accepting of other people and their behaviours, I feel like I get it now.

I'm pleased that it's worked out well for you. If I had heard this stuff when I was in my early 20s I'm sure it would have had a much larger impact on me, and I probably would have held it all in greater awe.

 

[Jitterbug]

What dog have you got in this fight, zekko? As far as I can tell, you're not in the same market as we are, you have no younger sister, cousin, daughter, son, niece or nephew in it either. What motivates your arguments here? Or are you just the type in the Monty Python's Argument Clinic skit?

 

[zekko]

Look, the only thing I was trying to say with this thread is that men outside the community are not necessarily the dull witted losers they are so often portrayed to be here. Not all guys are supplicant to their women. Mystery didn't invent self respect. It was not my intent to debate the merits of game (although we can go there if you want).

Taz is correct when he says I've never cared for the matrix analogy. I prefer to look at it all as just being reality - the way things are. Different people pushing their own different agendas. Some will buy into them, so will not. To say that the whole country is asleep and that the only ones awake are the guys in a pickup forum seems like a bit of a conceit, at least. I know that most guys here disagree with me, but it's just my opinion.

What dog have you got in this fight, zekko? As far as I can tell, you're not in the same market as we are, you have no younger sister, cousin, daughter, son, niece or nephew in it either. What motivates your arguments here? Or are you just the type in the Monty Python's Argument Clinic skit?

This isn't an argument.
Yes it is.
No it isn't.

You're right I'm not really in the market anymore, but that can always change, can't it? 5string and Rollo are also monogamous (as far as I can tell), but that doesn't stop them from giving their opinions. I stick around on the forum because I find the subject of attraction interesting, and I also find aspects of it motivational.

I don't think I "actively game" my girlfriend at all. Our relationship is very natural in that I as the male am dominant, and she as the female is submissive. Moreover, she trusts that I know what I'm doing and has no problem relying on me to run things. She also knows that I can get another woman if I want, so I don't feel the need to constantly remind her.

Originally I came here because I was approaching my 50s and I was having some trouble adapting to whatever new self image that might entail. You might call it a mid life crisis. I went through similar phases in my late 20s and 30s. In some ways you have to constantly reinvent yourself. I had always tended to look at my age as an advantage with women, but I don't know if you can say that when you're 50.

Anyway, I got over that phase. Basically I realized that for the most part my age doesn't matter, but that even if it does cut me off from a certain group of girls, it's not that big of a deal. Just part of life. I'll probably go through the same thing as I approach 60, God willing.

 

[Huffman]

I have a friend who's very much like samspade described. If you only see him at social events, you'll think he's a killer with the ladies. Plenty of female admirers and all that. You always see cute girls hanging off his arms and him flirting & teasing them like a champ. Yet he's a total failure in closing the deal. I'm pretty sure he's still carrying his V-card.

Holy crap this guy is me! Well not quite but sometimes I feel like it

 

[Jitterbug]

You just sound like the Argument Clinic guy, zekko, because all you're arguing is simply semantics and strawmen you made up yourself.

"No I'm not"
"Yes you are"
"No I'm not"
...

 

[zekko]

You just sound like the Argument Clinic guy, zekko, because all you're arguing is simply semantics and strawmen you made up yourself

Not strawmen, although most of the stuff I'm referring to are things I read on the general board. Since it's a younger crowd over there, it's no surprise there are some more extreme views held, which are what I am ranting against.

Since you accuse me of using strawmen, Jitterbug, I take it then that you actually agree with the substance of what I'm saying, even if you may not like the way I'm saying it?

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

I don't think I "actively game" my girlfriend at all. Our relationship is very natural in that I as the male am dominant, and she as the female is submissive. Moreover, she trusts that I know what I'm doing and has no problem relying on me to run things. She also knows that I can get another woman if I want, so I don't feel the need to constantly remind her.

I think this is where most of the disconnect you feel comes from. I don't actively game Mrs. Tomassi now because after 15 years of marriage that Game became who I was. You may not call it Game, but that Game IS you.

I suspect that both our wives are on the same page with regard to what they need in a Man, but that doesn't mean the guys seeking advice here experience that reality or are effective at projecting that positive masculinity. For the larger part I think most of them have no clue as to how to BE the game.

 

[Buddha_Mind]

Rollo, first of all Zekko is not married. Secondly, why the fuk is everyone sweating Zekko so much here...I completely agree with him...if you can't see some of this stuff at SS IS DOGMA than you are lying to yourselves...these are not iron rules written in the sands of time...

Look...there are many blends to life, I'm not saying everything here is crap...its clear we all have interest in attraction, we have interest in (most of us) finding success through our failures...but don't you know that when you take something like this [attraction] and bring it to the domain of discussion that things can start to get a bit warped...???

If you really read the DJ bible in its entirety, and prescribed to it like a don juan code of honor, do you REALLY believe everything is just going to flow in your favor like a downward stream of pvssy landing right onto your balls? And who ever said endless fvcking is the route to happiness? Fvck all that man -- there ARE some lines of BS in the thinking around here, a very COLD view point that may DETER some quality women.

Any man here too whom seems to have things working out for him, tremendous warning sirens are given...I get just as cynical sometimes about romance and love too, but it honestly depresses the sh!t out of me to hear cyncismx1000 from everyone, and that all women ultimately will knife you in the head when you least expect it...it happens...but so do lots of negative things...where do we focus our minds.

Sometimes I feel like we're all just reaching for some hazy ass green light that can't be reached anyhow...some of you whom have good marriages, honestly, how much of your marriage success is attributed to the REAL LIFE experience you gained, including the REAL heartbreak that made you tougher and wiser?

I get tired of this debate that SS is the ULTIMATE SOURCE versus the idea that its all GARBAGE..it's somewhere in between...sometimes I come back to this forum hesitantly (because of the straight up woman hating and it sure as hell rubs off on me when I read here long enough)...

But it is nice to have a place to discuss and read things from the perspectives of others...a place where this form of discussion is suitable, where most people around me don't hardly want to entertain HALF of the ideas here...

Rollo, you are probably correct that male dominance and being "the man" is a huge factor in a relationship. The hard part is FINDING women who want this role -- man being with a woman who seems to try and want to run the show is absolute hell -- and maybe that's one big hurdle right there -- if some woman keeps trying to steal the baton and run the parade, she's going to stomp all over your @ss in the end...

My mind sometimes gets so damn twisted from endless discussion and analysis of this female stuff...and if its not happening here at SS (that I willingly take on) it happens other times with friends...

Nobody REALLY knows...Do you think these women are reading 1000pages of dialogue and discourse on the subject?

Going around using DBOT's method or Mystery's to get a quick lay is WAY different than finding some woman to be more than the receiving end of your penis...and you know what, it's honestly FINE that this is all some men want, that's fine, I get it, I'm not like this, never have been, keep trying to convince myself all I need is to get my d!ck wet a few more times but you know what, it's just a self-lie, deep down inside I know that's not what my greater happiness will come from...companionship is a different ball game, and there is no doubt keeping a strong frame and growing as oneself is so fvcking important...and yes Rollo many dudes bail on their life dreams because they find some incredible woman and being situating their entire lives around them...sometimes that is a mutual thing that both the male and female are doing for the betterment of their relationship...often times if one party does so and the other does not it all falls apart...often times that level of sacrifice should never be made to begin with...and yes many guys willingly walk away from their dreams for this comfort. Perhaps for some it works out. Others maybe not. Not everyone wants to be the CEO of a big firm...some people don't mind a humble life...there is 100% value in helping young men pursue their dreams and not get fvcked from behind in lawsuits and child-custody suits...but we have to remind ourselves this doesn't happen in EVERY situation.

But reading all of this gets so damn depressing...

The quick lay receives praise...the man who says how happy he is now married gets "BE CAREFUL BRO" thrown at him over and over again.

The truth is STRs are EASY, they involve the LEAST amount of real effort and work, give quick and fast reward, and involve the LEAST amount of emotional investment...

Lots of people are lazy, it is no surprise this route appeals to most...

But what about a good quality stew beyond what McDonald's can give? Sometimes a McFish can be good for awhile, but enough of them there are reactions...

And look, sometimes I crave McDonalds -- but there is this mindset here that you're not a REAL MAN if you don't wh0re yourself around all of the time...that has to be a load of sh!t...and I have been very bitter about some of the negative ends to my relationships (and maybe that same emotion is intertwined someways in this post..I have been very female-frustrated lately)...but you can be a REAL MAN and have a GOOD RELATIONSHIP without sticking your penis in every vagina that opens...isn't there more to life than eating, sleeping and fvcking?

What about focusing more on what lights your fvcking fires for life? Finding new hobbies, becoming a professional at some aspect of life that calls you.

Lately every time I've been worrying about women, I've decided to play the guitar instead. Figure every hour of my life I waste thinking about them I should instead put towards something that will make me better. And I was shredding like a motherfvcker.

And really all we have to go off of, by those who claim to be successful, is little green karma lights (oh they must know what they are talking about) and one persons' biased viewpoint of their relationship...no offense, but even those here who have the best relationships where they have fully incorporated game into their being...how do I REALLY know what the hell you have? If we were to sit as an impartial observer for some people's relationships (those who consider themselves DJ professionals), would we really always like what we see?

If I could boil sh!t down to what I've learned, is that flirtation is something that should be constantly kept alive, trust is a major issue and very delicate because once shattered always shattered, wh0res will be wh0res no matter what you'd like them to be, a man takes care of his ****, and prioritizes the **** he needs to live over the woman who wants his time -- but still gives that woman his time because he is the man, and men have strength of heart also. Staying in shape makes you feel good mentally and physically, and catches people's eye. Wear protection. Always, unless you are willing to have a baby or be prepared for psych0 games...

Ultimately, what do you want to fuel your relationship on? Fear? A big part of SS is basically using fear-tactics...*I* could drop you any minute...*I* could have any other woman any minute...*I* could leave you and be just fine...

Have we all been hurt so badly by some ***** psych0 women that we have become this selfish ?

Is this level of selfishness the only way to find a mate who has constant digs for you ?

I am skeptical.

I value SS discussion. I value all of you who contribute and have helped to expand my viewpoint.

But how could anyone swallow SS completely?

I imagine there may be correlations...if you are totally pro-SS, you might be totally pro-America, or religion, or sports-team-fanatics, whatever area of the mind that ties into group think and dissolution of self-analysis and criticism with the momentum of the collective whole...

Discuss here and learn. But the real world has contrasts. Blend the two. Stay in the positive frame of mind...too much SS will turn you into one cynical selfish bastard.

 

[zekko]

I think this is where most of the disconnect you feel comes from. I don't actively game Mrs. Tomassi now because after 15 years of marriage that Game became who I was. You may not call it Game, but that Game IS you.

I guess you could put it that way. If I was the same guy I was in my early twenties I doubt that I could hold on to her.

Sometimes I forget how young so many of the posters are on here. It's a young man's game. The reason I was able to figure out the things I did about women on my own was because I failed so many times There's nothing like failure to teach you a lifelong lesson.

Not that my view of women is exactly the same as what SoSuave teaches, but there are a lot of solid principles here that could have been some use to me as a young man. Like Buddha noted, some of it is a little too over the top cyncial, but as I said before the extreme views are what I usually rant against.

It's true I am not married, but since I've been living with my girlfriend for so long, we come about as close as you get.

 

[Jitterbug]

People that old don't have sex anymore anyway so Game wouldn't matter.

Right?

 

[zekko]

why the fuk is everyone sweating Zekko so much here

When you have a community that teaches its members to be *******s, what else would you expect?

 

[scrouds]

better an assshole then a pusssy.

True skill comes when you can balance the 2.

 

[typical]

I guess you could put it that way. If I was the same guy I was in my early twenties I doubt that I could hold on to her.

Sometimes I forget how young so many of the posters are on here. It's a young man's game. The reason I was able to figure out the things I did about women on my own was because I failed so many times There's nothing like failure to teach you a lifelong lesson.

Not that my view of women is exactly the same as what SoSuave teaches, but there are a lot of solid principles here that could have been some use to me as a young man. Like Buddha noted, some of it is a little too over the top cyncial, but as I said before the extreme views are what I usually rant against.

It's true I am not married, but since I've been living with my girlfriend for so long, we come about as close as you get.

Which is exactly what is being taught on forums like sosuave, ie. go out and get rejected and learn from your mistakes.

I can say hands down that before I joined this site I was a young punk that thought he knew everything about life and women, after a few crash and burns my ego was battered and I needed answers.

Coming to this website and being told first hand by others that my so called "assh0le" ways are the right way to go and by becoming a pu55y wipped boy after getting the girl was my problem.

Had I not found this website I would have had to go through another half dozen or more crash and burn relationships before learning anything or might have never learned. Coming here sped up that learning rate and has taught me to be a wiser person when it comes to women and other parts of my life.

Yea some of the stuff here isn't new or rocket science but when you've been constantly conditioned your whole life you fail to see the error in your ways untill much later.

I will agree that many guys out there have the so called skills to "game" women and other people to find lovers and friends without ever having to read a PUA guide and thats fine and dandy but there are many more that have the same set of skills yet will always be messing things up because they haven't learned how to deal with tricky or difficult situations.

I will also agree that if I met myself when I first joined the website, I would immediatly think "this boy has no clue", and I'm sure that in another 5 years time I'll look back at my 27 year old self and say "geez I had no clue back then either". I guess as you age you pickup more and more "Game" indirectly and directly from your real world experiences.