The Real World

[zekko]

I interact with a lot of people in my job. Most of the guys I know carry themselves well, have good posture, look like they have some sort of workout routine going, make good eye contact, and seem very relaxed, fun, happy, and confident when chatting up the girls.

I'm not saying they're all killer pimps by any means, but I do find that this reality is a far cry from what I read here - the idea that the vast majority of guys are massive chodes. I do know a few guys who are clearly unsuccessful with women: One is a hopeless nerd type who is on the small side. The other is a big guy who acts like he's 14, very immature. And maybe a few other guys who are just extremely obese.

I do know a guy who is married and acts pretty AFC about his wife, but the rest of the girls love him and are constantly touching him a lot (I'm starting to think it's really, really geekish to call it "kino") - he's a tall good looking fellow.
So even if he's AFCish I wouldn't say he's bad with women, he's not.

Reading this forum, I get the impression most of you guys live in worlds where you are surrounded by incompetent male chode pvssies that couldn't make eye contact with a girl or make conversation with her if his life depended on it. And if a decent guy were to walk into the room (someone from this forum), all the girls would squeal "Omigosh! A confident male!" and start to swoon. Is this really the world you guys live in? Because I'm not seeing it.

One thing I must note is that most of the guys I know are at least in their mid twenties. Maybe the guys who are surrounded by chodes are around 18.

 

[sstype]

I interact with a lot of people in my job. Most of the guys I know carry themselves well, have good posture, look like they have some sort of workout routine going, make good eye contact, and seem very relaxed, fun, happy, and confident when chatting up the girls.

I'm not saying they're all killer pimps by any means, but I do find that this reality is a far cry from what I read here - the idea that the vast majority of guys are massive chodes. I do know a few guys who are clearly unsuccessful with women: One is a hopeless nerd type who is on the small side. The other is a big guy who acts like he's 14, very immature. And maybe a few other guys who are just extremely obese.

I do know a guy who is married and acts pretty AFC about his wife, but the rest of the girls love him and are constantly touching him a lot (I'm starting to think it's really, really geekish to call it "kino") - he's a tall good looking fellow.
So even if he's AFCish I wouldn't say he's bad with women, he's not.

Reading this forum, I get the impression most of you guys live in worlds where you are surrounded by incompetent male chode pvssies that couldn't make eye contact with a girl or make conversation with her if his life depended on it. And if a decent guy were to walk into the room (someone from this forum), all the girls would squeal "Omigosh! A confident male!" and start to swoon. Is this really the world you guys live in? Because I'm not seeing it.

One thing I must note is that most of the guys I know are at least in their mid twenties. Maybe the guys who are surrounded by chodes are around 18.

You make a good point zekko. I see this as well. The guys you're describing are whats considered "normal" or "average" to mainstream society. Here, they are considered the elite Don Juans lol....most guys who came here (myself included) started off with terrible or lack of basic social skills. "AFC" is a misnomer as it deludes men in to thinking "oh, my inabiilty to interact normally with women is typical of a normal, average guy" when in reality they were way below average.

It's similar to how most everyone who is not wealthy considers themselves "middle class" including those who clearly make below whats considered a middle-class income. Who wants to call themselves "poor" or "working-class"

With all the stuff I learned and internalized from this site, I get a generally positive female response but by no means do I have women swooning over me or begging to let me f*ck them. I went from being a loser that most women actively avoided in my younger days to a normal well-adjusted guy who gets lucky with a moderately attractive girl occasionally. All sosuave can do is get you up to par, maybe help you find a gf or LTR, but it won't make you some kind of ladykiller by any means as plenty of other normal, average guys who never visited this site possess the same "DJ skillsets".

 

[st_99]

What I see is guys way beneath me in every way shape and form in relationships with women yet I sit here forever single. Not sexless, but definitely can't make anything last. Thats my reality. I see chicks go berzerk over me yet somehow wind up with
boring lame sh*t heads while I remain single. Thats what I see.

 

[Colossus]

I agree zekko.

What I see is in the nuances of men's interactions with women. Most guys I know or see arent outright chumps, but when I watch them with their wives or gf's or stumble over some HB 8, the true colors come out. ESPECIALLY in LTRs. Some guys are otherwise very confident and fun to be around, but they are complete b1ches with their sig. other.

 

[st_99]

I know a few guys who are confident day-to-day, charming in fact, have many friends, and many female admirers, for lack of a better term.

This does not always translate to success with women.

I think you make a great point. I'm a big believer in that success with women is a skillset on its own and really has very little to do with being confident or charming or the life of the party, its a specific set of skills that are JUST about getting women, not being a fantastic overall person.

I know plenty of guys that have self esteem issues, mommy daddy problems, are not charming or funny or any of that sh*t but they still get girls because they just know how to hook up with a girl, push the right buttons.

Thats why i think the "improve yourself and you'll get girls" advice is mostly bullsh*t. A mechanic will never learn how to fix an engine by just "improving himself" he needs to find you how the hell an engine works. Thats it, nothing else matters. Just like you need to find out what makes a girls gina tingle, thats it. "Confidence" is such a huge overgeneralization, its too broad and fairly meaningless.

 

[zekko]

Hmm, it looks like the criticism has gone from "they're all chodes" to "they don't have the technique". Honestly, most young guys I know are so horny they don't really need technique - they just escalate naturally because their hormones demand it.

But I will admit that just because these guys are comfortable with women and get good responses from them, that doesn't mean they are approach machines in a club. But most "normal" guys do well enough in social circles that they don't need to become elite PUAs.

It's similar to how most everyone who is not wealthy considers themselves "middle class" including those who clearly make below whats considered a middle-class income.

Yeah, there was a guy here a few days ago who posted his OK Cupid profile or whatever it was. He described himself as an upper middle class guy, then a little further down it said he was low income. I was like WTF?

 

[Burroughs]

I

I know plenty of guys that have self esteem issues, mommy daddy problems, are not charming or funny or any of that sh*t but they still get girls because they just know how to hook up with a girl, push the right buttons.

The guitarist in my band in college was like this, (except he could solo like Alex Lifeson..). Deep emotional issues but he could bag a chick every 3 days easy. I was the lead singer and he got more azz than me! Why? Cause he could put himself out there in a specific way, channel his insecurities and family problems into getting what he wanted, building a sense of intimacy. I was always logical. I was a biology major, he was English. The same girls that liked him liked me, he would close quicker though...he was a shark sensing blood. I learned though.

OF course that was college, everyone knew everyone. I think the same is true in a job setting.

 

[SgtSplacker]

Female politics is a bear to handle for someone not educated in the subtle nuances of it. Sure there are guys out there with no training that can run some really tight game. But thats not saying they are passing all their $hit tests and doing everything right. They may be a little unhappy with their relationships.
Coming here for me lets me know how to react to every situation, what is acceptable and what is not. Seeing people talk about their problems gives me immediate insight if it happens to me. Without having to soul search in the middle of an argument. I'm far from a perfect DJ but i'm very satisfied with myself. I have spent the last 12 years dating somebody (3 diff girls) with barely any down time. Only recently I got out of a 7 year run and spent the last 8 months single and loving it, although I am in a relationship now it seems with a total BPD girl. I'm not sweating it i'm hitting it and we have fun together. I just need to say on top of my game because she'll start to take over.

 

[Lexington]

Well you have to consider that most American adults are overweight and about a third of the population is obese. That leaves at most half of the population fitting the mold of what's considered attractive. Of course there are also those who are scrawny, oddly proportioned, have bad facial features and those that have no social skills.

I agree that most folks on these forums are at their baseline below average (otherwise why would they be here?). But something I have come to realize is that there are lots of ugly people in the real world. I really noticed this when I went back to visit my college town recently. Everywhere I looked, I saw girls that would really stand out in the real world.

After coming back to the "real world" it made me realize how distorted my idea of attractiveness was when I was in college. Chicks who would be considered 9s or 10s in the real world would be 7s or 8s in college where everyone is young and fit.

 

[The_411]

Well I've always been behind the eight 8 ball so to speak in that I have always have had extreme difficultly reading social cues so coming here helped me realize a lot of things that go on that I didn't process/conceptualize so to speak.

I don't think I'm bad looking in fact I probably get more female attention than I realize but part of it is lack of self-esteem, part of is an inability to pick up on social cues, and another part is people pleasing.

For me it's learning how things work in terms by learning what doesn't work and eliminating beavhiors that are unattractive or put you into the friend category.

 

[Desdinova]

What I generally see is men with different levels of social skills. Some will actively talk to women, some will sit in the corner by themselves, some will cling to their friends all night. Most of them can talk to women to some degree.

The difference between me and them is being able to close the deal; get her number, date her, and fvck her. The occasional other guy has the ability to do so, but most of them don't.

The techniques on this forum can most certainly make her choose you over that other guy who can get phone numbers.

 

[Jitterbug]

zekko, you're only seeing the tip of the iceberg there. And this isn't about approaching women in clubs like a machine. I don't personally do that at all.

I have a friend who's very much like samspade described. If you only see him at social events, you'll think he's a killer with the ladies. Plenty of female admirers and all that. You always see cute girls hanging off his arms and him flirting & teasing them like a champ. Yet he's a total failure in closing the deal. I'm pretty sure he's still carrying his V-card.

I have another friend who's always been in relationships, popular socially and is known to have quite a few female admirers. Yet the only reason he's always in relationships is because he's asked out by those few women and he doesn't know how to date and seduce women that aren't throwing themselves at him, although he really wants to. He often jokes about his 100% hit rate compared to my... very much lower rate (I have a far higher pvssy count), but the truth is that he's not good with women - not good enough to follow what his heart desires anyway.

Those two are very typical of AFCs who don't appear to have any trouble with women, until you look just beneath the surface. Before I found this site, I was one of them, and there are many of them out & about.

 

[typical]

What I generally see is men with different levels of social skills. Some will actively talk to women, some will sit in the corner by themselves, some will cling to their friends all night. Most of them can talk to women to some degree.

The difference between me and them is being able to close the deal; get her number, date her, and fvck her. The occasional other guy has the ability to do so, but most of them don't.

The techniques on this forum can most certainly make her choose you over that other guy who can get phone numbers.

Exactly just because they can talk to people casually does not mean they are good at getting girls. Most guys are not good at getting girls let alone their numbers.

 

[zekko]

when I watch them with their wives or gf's or stumble over some HB 8, the true colors come out. ESPECIALLY in LTRs. Some guys are otherwise very confident and fun to be around, but they are complete b1ches with their sig. other.

There is definitely a sub group of these guys who are totally controlled by their wives. I have a good friend who turns his check immediately over to his wife, and he has to live off of whatever she gives him. But he has such an impulsive nature, I doubt that he could handle the finances himself, so he's actually probably better off handing over the check.

But when I grew up, you were heavily ridiculed if you gave in too much to your girlfriend. "Pvssy whipped" was the term.

Well, I never said they were chodes. But the men who believe in doing things a certain way ARE chumps if they're not getting the results they want

Is anyone ever really totally satisfied with their interactions with women? I've read posts on other forums by guys who were having insane amounts of success, but all of them seemed to want to do better. None of them ever said "I've reached the pinacle, I've got it all figured out now, I can relax".
I'd like to see three new HB9s a day knocking on my door to throw themselves at me just because I'm so awesome. But I doubt that's going to start happening anytime soon

Well you have to consider that most American adults are overweight and about a third of the population is obese. That leaves at most half of the population fitting the mold of what's considered attractive.

When you say most are overweight, that includes all the old people in that sample. I'm guessing that a 20 year old is a lot less likely to be overweight than a 50 year old. Peak metabolism and all. Pick yourself a young one and chances are she'll be more attractive.

The difference between me and them is being able to close the deal; get her number, date her, and fvck her. The occasional other guy has the ability to do so, but most of them don't.

The techniques on this forum can most certainly make her choose you over that other guy who can get phone numbers.

Well yeah. As I stated in the original post, I wasn't saying that these guys were all killer pimps. Just that they weren't the massive chodes you might expect from reading this forum.

There's an attitude of sorts here that we on the forum are the alpha males who are privy to all the secrets of the female, while everybody on the outside are a bunch of betas. And that most women will be disgusted by these betas.

Women may be disgusted by omegas, but upper level betas actually do quite well. All the "Let her talk to the guy, he'll blow himself out within two minutes" stuff you read here rings a little false.

Knowing that you have to close can give you the advantage, I agree. She may actually be more attracted to the other guy, but if you can step up and close while the other guy dithers around, she may end up with you.

 

[Buddha_Mind]

Zekko --

I agree with a lot of your thoughts -- ssauve has, in many ways a sort of dogma or doctrine for a foundation of thought when engaging the opposite sex...

Like most foundations of thought, they can be purely subjective, and reality can bring different experiences.

There is no single-way, likely it is all about what you want.

I agree, many men here, even swimming admist the pvssy, are not satisfied.

Where does contentment lie?

Where can a man have ease of his spirit in his relation to women?

The attitude here is somewhat anxiety-driven, skepticism...self-protection...inflation of ego...

I am working to let more things go. Including my preconceived notions of all things.

What truly IS? Eh?

There are many great men, who are not pimps by any means, but have won the sworn affection of a woman who is devoted to them....and are likely not in endless bickering marriages...

Theory doesn't always align with Reality.

I studied the natural sciences...and that fact is proven again and again...what looks nice in a text book and in the confines of human thought do not always flourish in the same ways in the world...

I would say more than anything, this woman adventure we are all on is more about self-discovery and ascertaining the value sets you deem right for you and the relationship you desire...there is no single way about it...

mad props to this post +repped to you man. [edit: "You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to zekko again." would repp you if I could brotha]

 

[DanelMadr]

Being good with girls from your social circle is one thing, approaching total stranger is vastly different "game".

For example I'm not much of social person, so my circle was limited, I needed to do better than hb7 from work. And I hated to miss on stranger hb9.

I don't think of other men as chodes but frankly I know just few guys who married a girl of their dreams, mostly other way around. And even these wives start to loose respect for their husbands. They both get frustrated as woman matures but her man can't keep up....divorce. Or the man matures and finds another girl, who he is attracted to more than he ever was to his wife...divorce.

I don't want to settle for some girl just bc I'm afraid to ask out better girl which makes my knees shake. I believe majority of men just settled.
Hitting hb6 is easy. I don't think less of those men but I see their frustration.
Can't you? I mean, nobody's ever happy but the scale is off balance here.

Maybe I think too high of myself but so far this struggle for better girl taught me so much and I believe, made me a better man on many fronts.
Only trying to better your life and facing fear is enough.

 

[zekko]

Maybe I think too high of myself but so far this struggle for better girl taught me so much and I believe, made me a better man on many fronts.
Only trying to better your life and facing fear is enough.

I think this is part of my point:
There are a lot of young people out there who are working hard to better themselves, and better their lives. That objective is not unique to pickup forums. I was absolutely obsessed with self improvement when I was in my 20s, and I had never even heard of pickup material.

 

[DanelMadr]

I think this is part of my point:
There are a lot of young people out there who are working hard to better themselves, and better their lives. That objective is not unique to pickup forums. I was absolutely obsessed with self improvement when I was in my 20s, and I had never even heard of pickup material.

On other hand, self improvement is often just a distraction to take our thoughts away from 'Why can't I get a girl I' love?'. You become martial art expert, genial psychologist, enlightened monk, skillful engineer, smart businessman or whatever or all of it. However the 'sex' thing is still on your mind. It is the instinct and it seems that very important....only our genes will survive after we die. Human existence depends on it.

I believe, the 'sexual' aspect of oneself, the associated fears and obstacles are the biggest ones to conquer, as they are often behind all other fears. Therefore the most important to tackle.

It is easy to admit, 'I suck at math, business, skydiving, praying, fighting....' But once you admit 'You are not worthy of love, bc you are a Poser' the real curing can begin. But it is hard to admit. Correction....the Poser makes you think, you gonna die, admitting such a heavy stuff.

 

[zekko]

I believe, the 'sexual' aspect of oneself, the associated fears and obstacles are the biggest ones to conquer, as they are often behind all other fears. Therefore the most important to tackle.

I do think it's important. I don't think I'd say it's the most important. I've never agreed with the guys here who say women aren't important, you don't need them in your life, etc. I mean it's true you don't NEED them, but I can't imagine a guy living a full complete life without women it, unless he becomes a monk or something, which is about living a life of denial.

There are two schools of thought here:
1) Go out and approach 100 women, collect 50 rejections, put all your energy into it.
2) Improve yourself to be a better man and the women will follow.

I tend to be more inspired by #2. But again, when I was in my 20s, and I was obsessed with self improvement, one of the things I was looking to improve was my social life, which definitely included women, love life, sex life, etc.

Bottom line though: Not everybody thinks they have to learn a bunch of PUA tips and tricks just to relate to another person (a female). In fact, I don't think you do either. The important things that you need to know you will find out by actually getting out and interacting with them. Be advised you may get a few skinned knees along the way. You don't learn to ride a bike without falling off a few times.

 

[Lexington]

It's not an either/or proposition. You can improve yourself and also do lots of approaches etc. Yes, you will have an easier time attracting women if you become a better man but unless you are ridiculously good looking, wealthy etc. it's highly unlikely that the women will just fall into your lap without any effort. Chances are you're still going to have to take steps to make it happen. You will still encounter rejection. There is no single guy that can please all the ladies.