The Pusssy/Self-Esteem Dichotomy

Julius_Seizeher

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I have discovered, both here and at-large, a logical fallacy that is crippling the development of men everywhere.

I am calling it "The Pusssy/Self-Esteem Dichotomy".

It is a product of the other false dichotomies that have crippled mankind for centuries, such as: Mind vs. Body, Body vs. Soul, Moral vs. Practical, Theory vs. Practice. Especially prevalent in this instance are Mind vs. Body and Theory vs. Practice.

What it boils down to is a man saying, "You don't understand, all this stuff about valuing myself above women is great, but it isn't practical, because my glands are more powerful than my mind."

A rather pathetic position to take. And you take it in order to evade the fact that it is not your glands that drive your behavior, but the premises held by your mind.

A lust-crazed man, eager to bed women indiscriminately, is held as your ideal of masculinity. At the same time, you champion self-esteem as the number one factor in determining how many women you get. The problem is, contained in this admission is a hideous contradiction, and a contradiction cannot exist in reality.

In this case, the contradiction is an attempt to reverse the law of causality. The mad lust for indiscriminate sex partners is not a celebration of masculinity, it is the desire to achieve self-esteem by means of how many women want to have sex with you. Does this seem ridiculous? It is.

To have self-esteem is to first decide what the things are that you value, and then to work to manifest those values in your 'self'. The degree to which you accomplish this is the degree of your self-esteem. Only an empty husk of a man, with no self in which to hold esteem, could be deluded enough to believe that self-esteem is to be found between a woman's legs.

When a man of self-esteem sleeps with a woman he doesn't value, it is not a victory; it leaves him with a feeling of depression and self-abasement, as though he has sold himself short. Which he has. I speak from experience on this, for when I have slept with women I did not value, it left me feeling worse than when I was in a dry spell.

It has only been in the last year that I have completely disconnected my sense of self-worth and self-esteem from the number of women I am sleeping with. Before, when I hit a dry spell, it was as though a sense of panic would set in on me, as if there was something horribly wrong with me and I had better go bang someone to get past it. Now I see that that was the problem: not the lack of sex, but the panic that set in when I wasn't getting any. And it wasn't until I asked why that I was able to realize that I had been seeking self-esteem through women, which is a hideous action for a man, because your self-esteem is not hers to give you.

As a fundamental rule of human existence, you can only value that which you earn, that which you create for yourself. Only when you achieve a genuine sense of self-esteem, and only when you sleep with a woman because you see the things you value in her, does sex become a true victory for a man. When a man of self-esteem sleeps with a woman he values, it is a celebration of himself. When a man with no self-esteem sleeps with a woman he does not value, it is an act of self-abasement.

Sex does not create self-esteem; self-esteem leads to sex. But self-esteem is not the cheap posturing you see all around (and possibly within) you, and when a man of false self-esteem fools a woman into sleeping with him, the emptiness he feels afterwards is the realization that the person he had been working so hard to fool, was himself.
 

backbreaker

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wonderful post. one of the best i have ever read on this forum. I do however disagree with 2 points in the post

Only when you achieve a genuine sense of self-esteem, and only when you sleep with a woman because you see the things you value in her, does sex become a true victory for a man.
I see where you are trying to go, but i don't think this sentence is where you are trying to go with this. Just becuase I don't want to marry a woman doesn't mean I can't and won't enjoy sleeping with her.

There is still a disconnect here, that being that when you really have self esteem, it means, that your esteem, or how you view yourself, comes from you and no one else. If I have true self esteem, i can sleep with whoever i feel like it and it's not going to make me feel any better or worse about the situation, because my self worth is not tied into the quality of women i'm laying the pipe to.

Make no mistake. I have standards, but those standards do not have anything to do with rasing my self esteem. It goes back to my point of sex not being a moral issue but a physical one. Sex has nothing to do with morality. If I am single and a woman attracts me, i'm probably going to have sex with her, because that's what I do with women who I am attracted to.

But where you endd up is alot better than where you came from and at that, i agree wholeheardtly. Any man whoose ego/self worth is derived by w many women he can sleep with, has no chance in life. That's why I always (upon deaf ears) recommend men take a 2-3 year break from women. Most men have no clue as to who they are, what they really like, what their interest are, let alone actually take the the to hone them/work on them. It's kinda hard to feel good about yourself, when you don't even know who you are.

In a nutshell what you seem to be saying is that sleeping with low quality women, is going to lower your self esteem. What I am saying is your self esteem should not be tied into the outcome of any woman. If you are sleeping with women who you are not attracted to that's one thing and at that, i can agree. But when you start talking about "quality women" man, when it comes to sex, i'm very simplistic. Either it's up or it's not.

and when a man of false self-esteem fools a woman into sleeping with him,
Not all women are "fooled". some women have the same problem as men do. Some women have very low self esteem and need men to validate that. My point is that this sentence, starts with the premise that women are more wholesome then men are and the only way that they can be bedded if you very low self esteem nis to be tricked into it. Nothing IMHO can be further from the case. Well not necessarily but still, it works both ways.
 

3countriesPlan

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Good post, I used to be all about the numbers and closing closing and more closing but sometimes you do end up banging garbage and you do feel bad about it. Right now I'm in a dry spell kinda (no new lay in a week and no new prospects either as a I haven't really spend much time looking.) I would have freaked out in the past, but now I'm just carefully observing and seeing if something good comes along.
 

Rollo Tomassi

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Counterpoint: Beware of making your necessity a virtue. It's been my experience that the guys who are the most vocal about the merits of self-esteem and personal integrity trumping sexual experience are generally the same guys who aren't hooking up with any real frequency anyway. Remember, a sacrifice is only significant when you actually have something relevant to lose.

The point you've chosen to make here is a pretty common truism that very few people will argue with - and you know this. We'd all like to think that possessing some basic form of self-control is admirable, particularly in respect to our base impulses, but for as much as we'd like to self-righteously pat ourselves on the back for "resisting temptation", the fact remains that yes, we are still motivated by those impulses. I can't think of anyone who'd want to identify with the "lust crazed man" label, and certainly not as his recognized source of esteem, however, the physical/biological forces that motivates his lust is still very real.

When a man of self-esteem sleeps with a woman he doesn't value, it is not a victory; it leaves him with a feeling of depression and self-abasement, as though he has sold himself short. Which he has. I speak from experience on this, for when I have slept with women I did not value, it left me feeling worse than when I was in a dry spell.
Flowery prose doesn't make your personal anecdote a universal truth. It's interesting that you'll make the point of personal esteem being a paramount virtue in one paragraph yet equate bedding a "woman of value" with "victory". A great deal of hate is fueled by false premises. Concocting convenient scenarios, imagining the worst of your enemies, and reinterpreting their successes are a salve for the burned ego. Newsflash: your thin-skinned indignation is not other's moral crisis. Not every guys has to have sex to make himself feel better about himself.

You're not enlightening anyone with your binary White Knight rhetoric. If you choose to derive your personal value from some esoteric sense of what sex 'should' mean, more power to you, but I find it's a much healthier position to accept a balance between our carnal natures and our higher aspirations. It's not one or the other. It's OK to want to ƒuck just for the sake of ƒucking - it doesn't have to be some source of existential meaning. It is as equally unhealthy to convince oneself that self-repressions are virtues as it is to think that unfettered indulgences are freedoms. There is a balance.
 

Julius_Seizeher

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White Knight? I didn't see that one coming.

Why do we denounce the White Knight? Because he draws his self-esteem from rushing to defend women from males who want to use them for sex, which means: because he values women higher than himself.

But what you pose as the antithesis of the White Knight--the mindless philanderer who fashions himself in the image of a human stockyard--is not the antithesis of the White Knight, he is the flip side of the same coin, because he maintains the same fallacy as the White Knight: he still values women higher than himself. But instead of achieving self-esteem from defending women, he does so by means of using them, which is an equally false and counterfeit sense of self-esteem as that achieved by the White Knight.

Necessity is not a virtue; virtue is a necessity. I do not define virtue in the typically altruistic sense of the word, I define virtue as that which is good for the life of a man without detracting from the lives of others. There is nothing real that is good for the life of a man, that can be given to him by others (or taken from them); it must come from within himself. And as far as women are concerned, his value should not come from defending them nor from using them; each is equally parasitic and false.

When I refer to sex as an act of "victory", it is so only when a man recognizes the values in her that he values in himself. When you bang a woman who values the things you value, it is a celebration of yourself.
 

Peace and Quiet

If you currently have too many women chasing you, calling you, harassing you, knocking on your door at 2 o'clock in the morning... then I have the simple solution for you.

Just read my free ebook 22 Rules for Massive Success With Women and do the opposite of what I recommend.

This will quickly drive all women away from you.

And you will be able to relax and to live your life in peace and quiet.

Buddha_Mind

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Julius_Seizeher said:
White Knight? I didn't see that one coming.

Why do we denounce the White Knight? Because he draws his self-esteem from rushing to defend women from males who want to use them for sex, which means: because he values women higher than himself.

But what you pose as the antithesis of the White Knight--the mindless philanderer who fashions himself in the image of a human stockyard--is not the antithesis of the White Knight, he is the flip side of the same coin, because he maintains the same fallacy as the White Knight: he still values women higher than himself. But instead of achieving self-esteem from defending women, he does so by means of using them, which is an equally false and counterfeit sense of self-esteem as that achieved by the White Knight.

Necessity is not a virtue; virtue is a necessity. I do not define virtue in the typically altruistic sense of the word, I define virtue as that which is good for the life of a man without detracting from the lives of others. There is nothing real that is good for the life of a man, that can be given to him by others (or taken from them); it must come from within himself. And as far as women are concerned, his value should not come from defending them nor from using them; each is equally parasitic and false.

When I refer to sex as an act of "victory", it is so only when a man recognizes the values in her that he values in himself. When you bang a woman who values the things you value, it is a celebration of yourself.
^^I dig all of this^^

It is definitely easy to base self-esteem around (a) lay number and (b) lay frequency, and I wholeheartedly agree that these two things should be separated from the base of our self-value.

I don't think every man who turns down a chance at sex is depriving his "carnal" nature. In some ways, it too is a matter of self-respect. I've had chances to lay women who were even attractive but internally, very ugly; this was a matter of my own self-respect and self-value that I ought not to be hooking up with women whose character I don't respect. There is also the notion that just because my amphibian-brain is hungry for self-gratification doesn't mean I always have to gratify it. Banging every chick for the mere sake of sexual satisfaction would be like plowing through any tray of cookies or brownies that come my way. Often restricting ourselves from certain things is not ignoring the true animal self, but rather trying to bring out the best for physical/mental health -- which takes a higher form of faculty that the strictly-animal-running brains aren't privy to.
 

azanon

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I'm definitely with RT on this one.

"When a man of self-esteem sleeps with a woman he doesn't value, it is not a victory; it leaves him with a feeling of depression and self-abasement, as though he has sold himself short. Which he has. I speak from experience on this, for when I have slept with women I did not value, it left me feeling worse than when I was in a dry spell. "

Speak for yourself, JS. The last thing I feel after a good f*** is depressed. I actually get off on my carnal nature. I LOVE the biological aspect of my being, and I embrace it fully. Also, I wouldn't get hung up on insisting on 8's or higher. The occasional 5 or 6 in a crunch is perfectly fine. No one has to know!

If you're feeling sad, depressed, or empty, I'm not saying you don't have a problem that needs addressing, but I am saying don't blame the sex. That'd be like an alcoholic blaming the alcohol, or an obese person blaming the food.

And RT is right; it is possible to write ignorant information brilliantly. With writing like that, JS, you can fully engage in the logical fallacy of "appealing to emotion". You'll win at least a few folks agreeing on your abilities alone. With posts like that, you would be an absolute star at "Loveshack".
 

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Don't feed the trolls AZ. Binary is as binary does.
 

azanon

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Ok, sure thing. I just try to add a bit of flair to my posts, but i never mean any harm. We're all good, JS, but I do disagree with you on this.

I'm also a half-way decent writer when I actually spend some time on a post, but even on my best day, I can't touch you RT, or apparently JS either.
 

Buddha_Mind

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The reason the sex = depression is because the sex = self-devaluation (by low quality/skanky women).

I thought one of the primary DJ tenants is that Sex Isn't the Prize. Self-value is the real prize, is it not?

JS is, in a nutshell saying, self-value = having sex with good quality women of our choosing. Self-value = not building personal worth around frequency of genitals touching opposing genitals.

That's a far more difficult task than a cheap bang in a bathroom stall. And I would venture to say that most psychologists would agree that there are healthy psychologies towards lots of human behavior (like eating, or shooting guns, and having sex).

There are some people who will eat a McDonald's french fry that's been crushed between the seat cushions for a month...just like there are some guys who will bang the herpes-infested-200lb'er in their local tavern...sex is not always a victory!
 

azanon

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Just because you might occasionally have sex with an average chick, doesn't mean that you're attempting to built or support self-value. I'd say you're reading way too much into it. We men like and need sex on a biological level, and that's nothing to be ashamed of. What a DJ is good at is meeting this need with little to no difficulty, enjoying the process even!

I'd proceed carefully before I equated landing average chicks (and hopefully better!) and bedding them with great frequency, to pulling a dried french fry out of your car seat and eating it. You could end up giving the impression that they are equally difficult.

As for banging "herpes invested 200 pounders", I haven't seen anyone suggest that we should do that. JS mentioned avoiding logical fallacies. Well, Buddha, that's called a straw man argument.
 

Rollo Tomassi

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BUDDAH, what guy gets up in the morning, looks himself in the mirror and says, "you know what, I think I'm gonna go for ƒucking low quality bar skanks from here on out." ? Also, when WAS the last time you actually ƒucked a girl in a bathroom stall?

According to my records the last girl's snatch you even looked at dumped you recently. Remember her? I'm sure in the beginning you thought, "wow, what a great quality woman, I think I'd like to commit to monogamy with her and see if we could have a bright future together." That's not meant as a burn, but in the happy, binary world where JS lives you simply weren't White Knighty enough for her.
 

backbreaker

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i've had a few ONS's and had sex with women i knew good and well i wouldn't marry or even have a relationship with. Didn't feel bad whatsoever about it.


Honestly the only times i have felt bad about anything to do with women is when I am "wasting time" trying to win a woman over.

Chasing a woman who has LJBFed you or who hasn't shown any interest and you keep persisting will make you feel worse than anything.

Why am i supposed to feel bad or get low self esteem because a woman deems me attractive and wants to have sex with me that's backwards.

In my life nothing lowered my self esteem than when i chased my oneiitis for years and got no where. still skinny, still youthfully handsome, i thought that if i could not get her i could not get anyone and acted like it.
 

Buddha_Mind

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azanon said:
I'd proceed carefully before I equated landing average chicks (and hopefully better!) and bedding them with great frequency, to pulling a dried french fry out of your car seat and eating it. You could end up giving the impression that they are equally difficult.

As for banging "herpes invested 200 pounders", I haven't seen anyone suggest that we should do that. JS mentioned avoiding logical fallacies. Well, Buddha, that's called a straw man argument.
Hehe, you are correct, mentioning a "200 pounder" (hehe) or a McDonald's french fry is a straw man argument, you're right there. My points were extreme. But I do get JS on self-respect.

I do not think getting laid is a bad thing, I don't think a ONS is a bad thing either.

Okay -- how about this: how many would regret a ONS with a hottie? Probably not many. How many would regret a ONS with an unattractive woman (because of being so desperate for sex)? Probably some.

You don't think dropping your standards entirely just for a quick ejaculation isn't somehow devaluing yourself?

Rollo Tomassi said:
According to my records the last girl's snatch you even looked at dumped you recently. Remember her? I'm sure in the beginning you thought, "wow, what a great quality woman, I think I'd like to commit to monogamy with her and see if we could have a bright future together." That's not meant as a burn, but in the happy, binary world where JS lives you simply weren't White Knighty enough for her.
Sure I did think she was a good quality woman until I'd found she'd been with more men than she could count -- and had deep mental issues around sexuality and human closeness in ways I could never really attempt to fully understand.

And sure I got dumped. But mostly because I had resisted dumping her for so long -- I should have manned up awhile back and pulled the plug recognizing the constant friction. BUT -- I didn't want to turn my back on her, leave her behind, because I was in "love", and probably in some ways too, had become attached to her. Part of my not wanting to give up, may have been not wanting to acknowledge or admit to failure.

I could sit here and break everything down to my own mistakes or failing to invoke game at the proper times or losing frame -- and in some ways those did lead to a loss of attraction -- but at the same time at a deeper level we had very different world views and different futures. She also made a lot of mistakes herself -- and has a lot of her own issues.

I do know that myself not being a man wh0re was a good thing for our relationship. I'm not trying to sound gay here -- but I am literally saying the mere fact she had so many sexual partners DID fvck with her mind -- it DID fvck with her emotional spectrum and her ability to FEEL.

I don't think JS is saying anything about being a WHITE KNIGHT saving a woman -- or rescuing anyone -- it just sounds like he is saying a person shouldn't value their self-worth around strictly sex. More so if they are getting what they want -- if they are actualizing their dreams.

Rollo Tomassi said:
BUDDAH, what guy gets up in the morning, looks himself in the mirror and says, "you know what, I think I'm gonna go for ƒucking low quality bar skanks from here on out." ? Also, when WAS the last time you actually ƒucked a girl in a bathroom stall?
My example was extreme, but what I'm saying is you don't think a man willing to take whatever piece of @ss he can get is a bit pathetic?

It just seems like if you go around trying to maintain your ego and mental value by your sexual marketability, or your lay frequency, it is an empty sort of way of filling oneself or finding one's value -- and it basically is a way that uses other people (women explicitly) around oneself to maintain said ego/self-value. That doesn't seem a bit selfish or empty to you?

/edit/
And by no means do I think I have all of the answers or some perfect moral objectivity -- I am here to learn and clearly I want to be more successful with women than I have in the past, but I don't think that JS is saying to *not gratify* your sexual needs, but rather to root the ego outside of sex. I don't think that's being a white knight for women.
 

Lexington

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It's sex. It's not a space shuttle launch.

Yes, trying to find self-esteem in the number and quality of women you bed is a pretty bad idea. One's self-image and -concept should not be based on these things. But there's nothing wrong with having sex simply for the sake of pleasure. To that end, the only qualifications a girl needs to meet are the ability to sexually arouse you when she's naked and to be clean and disease free.

It's amazing how sex has been incredibly complicated by some. Do you think a dog ponders whether or not he's fvcking a "high quality" b*tch? No, he just sees something he wants to fvck and mounts it. Sex is something that has been going on for billions of years and this act is carried out by even the most rudimentary organisms. There's no need to read so much into it.
 

Rollo Tomassi

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Here's a link for you. Have fun.

My problem isn't necessarily with morals or ethics in and of themselves, but rather men chumpishly clinging to them when in actuality they really had no other options and want to congratulate themselves for sticking to convenient convictions. Once again, you're just making your necessity a virtue. Saying you're remaining celibate in order to hold to some higher ideals is just trying to prove a negative if you don't really have any valid options. It's unassailable; I can't doubt the merit of your convictions when nothing is what's required to prove them. Anyone would sound like an idiot for trying to convince you not to be moral, drop your integrity or demean yourself - but that's the reason appeals to moralism sound good. Being resolute is admirable, but until your virtue is significantly tested they're just excuses that look nice on your sleeve.
 

backbreaker

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this thread has taken a subtle and intersting turn

when JS started out, he stated that men who sleep with "low quality" women are "lowering their self esteem"

I take low quality as being someone who is flaky, doesn't have alot going on in their lives, isn't really about much, likes to party, doesn't have any ambitions, etc

everyone then said look, not much is wrong sex for sex's sake. it's onne thing to try to make a hoe a housewife, but there is nothing wrong with a good ole fashioned rump session with a "low quality" women, and i'm not going to feel bad about it

then the argument was subtlety switched

Okay -- how about this: how many would regret a ONS with a hottie? Probably not many. How many would regret a ONS with an unattractive woman (because of being so desperate for sex)? Probably some.

who said antyhing about sleeping with unattractive women? Men, that i know, don't sleep with women they aren't attracted to. They might have issues, they might not be LTR material but just play "ugly", i don't know about that. Trying to pull the ole swicharoo with "low quality" going from someone who doesn't have much going on in their lives to now being a blanket "unattractive"

Even so, by even stooping to that level to bring the conversation about attractive, you pretty much lose the argument in the first place as you have basically given up the premise as to what high quality is.
 

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The problem with fvcking a ***** is not the fvcking, its when the man deludes himself that the ***** is wife material because it is all he can get.

Fvcking is never a problem day or night. Its just that sometimes who you fvck comes back to bite you in the azz (not in a good way).

it happens everyday.
 

guru1000

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Let's cut through all the counter-sophistry and get to the central theme or idea that OP is driving at,

Do we OWN ourselves or are we slaves to our biological imperatives?

Any argument that even implicitly suggests that we OWN our will, OWN our actions, or OWN ourselves, is impetuously attacked by Rollo. Though, the last time I checked, hard work and perseverance--two traits that many fail to act on as they are biologically averted--are the prerequisites for success in any arduous endeavor. Last week, acting against my biological imperative, I stayed up 48 hours to complete work for my client, as promised. Success ain't easy!

The central--or shall I say implicit--argument, at this point, is frivolous.
 
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