The Natural vs. The PUA

[Fly By Night]

I saw someone post a link for goodlookingloser.com and I couldn't help but look at what these two guys talk about and how it differs from what PUA's do. It comes off much more direct and resembles Anti-Dump's Machine theory. In the beginning of part 4 he starts talking about the PUA community coming from a "I hope she likes me" mentality. Ways in how people talk to girls have to come up with witty/funny/****y lines to "get her to like him" seem beta more than anything else.

"Haha! I, the complete stranger, used a crazy, out of the ordinary line on you that no one else does in their right mind! PLEASE LIKE ME! PLEASE OH PLEASE OH PLEEEEASE!!"

But on a side note, the more direct approach is strictly for getting laid even though in the video he says that you still need to do the same thing even if you want to get a gf.

If you have some time on your hands, I think it's best to watch all four parts to understand the whole conversation and the people's backgrounds, but the main point of the thread is immediately addressed in part four.

Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGttqoZ4pl4&feature=channel&list=UL
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sm4awuHj6Is&feature=channel&list=UL
Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPuZ_hZ-Djs&feature=channel&list=UL
Part 4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LTQQmXhT2E&feature=channel&list=UL

 

[wataf]

sorry bra that was a complete waste of time

 

[Fly By Night]

You have to be kidding me. You got NOTHING out of that? Do you even practice anything from this site? I am just trying to show you another perspective on getting women.

 

[Aristippus]

Hey Fly,

I think there's a better "natural" approach than this. I'm not a big fan of the "pick-up artist" mentality. These guys seem more like gorillas that are playing a numbers game in a very sloppy fashion (all I had to do was watch about 5 minutes of video 4). Even the so-called "natural" guy. They're all playing a sloppy numbers game.

This isn't Anti-Dump's machine. And it isn't really the easiest way to find women who are available. I've internalized Anti-Dump's machine. I've also fine-tuned it way beyond what is described in the DJ Bible. And the machine is only one part of what I do that works for me. The mentality of Anti-Dump's machine is spot on. The execution of it, as described on the site, is lacking. Once you've fine-tuned the execution, you'll know what the answer to "What's your number?" is, before you even ask.

I'll give you an example. Let's say you've already kissed her. Or let's say you've held hands while maintaining eye contact during your conversation. What led up to that? She already made several advances towards you before you did a thing. She already initiated touch during your conversation before you did. She already started flirting with you.

Women with high interest will be looking for excuses to move things forward. All you have to do is show them you enjoy their advances and then reciprocate so they know you're interested too. There's no such thing as a one-sided romance. It takes 2. If she's very interested she will do all kinds of things to let you know she wants you. Think of it like this. Go back and read all of the sections on touch in the DJ Bible. If she's doing those things to you, at the very least she wants friendship. You never assume more than what is given to you. But a good interaction, a fun conversation, with her intiating lots of touch is at least a gesture of friendship.

And desire for friendship = an instant phone number (in most cases). We read her repeated behaviors over and over and over. You simply notice her responses. You only KNOW her potential desire for friendship at that point. But what if you both get together again and she bumps her breasts against you repeatedly? Not just one time accidentally, but over and over? If she's making every excuse to touch you, you can reciprocate by initiating friendly touch. And if she keeps bumping her anatomy into you repeatedly, you can hold her hand and she'll likely be receptive. Watch her responses. Does she act like she enjoys it or does she pull away? If she enjoys it move forward. If not, back off.

No gorilla-like behavior needed. No need to advance blindly. No need to create uncomfortable scenarios with un-interested women.

 

[wataf]

You have to be kidding me. You got NOTHING out of that? Do you even practice anything from this site? I am just trying to show you another perspective on getting women.

Ha respect man, I was just back from the bar when I posted that didn't even watch the full video, i'm sure it is a good perspective.

Cheers

 

[Fly By Night]

Ha respect man, I was just back from the bar when I posted that didn't even watch the full video, i'm sure it is a good perspective.

Cheers

Haha! Oh ok, but check it out when you got time.

Women with high interest will be looking for excuses to move things forward. All you have to do is show them you enjoy their advances and then reciprocate so they know you're interested too. There's no such thing as a one-sided romance. It takes 2. If she's very interested she will do all kinds of things to let you know she wants you. Think of it like this. Go back and read all of the sections on touch in the DJ Bible. If she's doing those things to you, at the very least she wants friendship. You never assume more than what is given to you. But a good interaction, a fun conversation, with her intiating lots of touch is at least a gesture of friendship.

Ok, I'm not really going to "disagree" with you, but people, in general, are autonomous. She might show me interest, but that doesn't mean she wants me for anything more than just sex. She can show me interest, but she could just be an AW. Even more, if she is interested in me, she doesn't have to initiate kino on me, she could be waiting for me to initiate it. If I really wanted something from her, I'm going to have to "test" her to see if she is down for it. I don't want to wait for her to make a move on me to judge her interest, that seems kind of passive instead of aggressive.

But I will agree with you that if I want something from her (friendship, gf, ONS) it has to be mutual and not just me giving her all the attention in the world when she obviously does not show the same to me.

 

[Aristippus]

Fly,

I'm using touch as one example. If she didn't touch you first during your conversation and you initiated touch and she acts like she's enjoying it, I guarantee you that at some point before you initiated touch during your conversation, she was invading your personal space (without touching you) and/or maintaining either warm,friendly eye contact or intense, sustained eye contact.

At some point before any physical interaction (friendly or intimate) she will have shown through her facial expression and body language her receptiveness. I watched farther into video 4 and could tell the second woman wasn't enjoying being grabbed after the high-five. Her facial expression was dropped. She maintained her distance instead of stepping closer, leaned away from him and had her other hand and arm up like a barrier between them and simply didn't look like she was enjoying herself.

There are plenty of non-verbal behaviors, overt and subtle, that let you know ahead of time whether or not a woman is receptive. Just because a guy doesn't pay attention to them doesn't mean the signals of high interest or low interest aren't there before any physical contact is made.

I think the more guys pay attention to these things, the more quickly and easily they'll be able to recognize a woman's signals. Once you learn them, you can usually notice women who are into you, and quickly move forward. The description sounds tedious, but through observing and honing those observational skills, and moving forward seamlessly, you can use it to get the girlfriend or the one-night stand. It makes no difference.

p.s. I don't differentiate between the sexual behavior of a long-term lover/girlfriend vs. a short fling. To me sexual behavior= sexual behavior. So when guys ask how to handle a fling versus some other situation, I'd say the difference isn't sexual. It's about maintaining distance socially. (introducing close friends and family or NOT introducing them to your social circle).

 

[Zarky]

It took awhile to get going but I liked it. Not a huge amount to learn (all approaches were lame) but I dug the "PUA" guy. He seemed intellectual and knew what he was doing. The tatted up guy seemed more "natural" but I don't think he'll have any more success with chicks. He'll simply know more immediately whether they're interested or not.

Watching more of it I really liked that PUA guy. He didn't take sh*t from the other guys yet was smart and intellectual. Often you'll find that smart guys (like say Ross Jeffries or Tyler Durden) have a certain feminine nature to them (like say Ross Jeffries or Tyler Durden). This guy didn't. He could handle men and women and seemed completely at ease.

If you could combine his attitude with some actual skill, you'd be highly successful.

 

[Fly By Night]

Thanks for the clarification Aristippus and the above response. I must say that Arist is pretty much spot on with the more subtle non-verbals. I guess the number one thing to remember is that different girls react to different things differently, go figure.

I just don't like is how the PUA guy asks them a bunch of questions that he as a stranger really doesn't deserve to know and then expects to snatch up a number. I've approached a lot of girls with the get-to-know-you lines only to mainly get a "Why the hell do you even care?" response. But, you could also say the same thing as the natural just wants to get his hands on her and expect sex within 10 minutes to a couple days. Makes him look like a perv and you might even catch a case (extreme negative outcome).

It's safe to say that you must combine both strategies, no?

 

[Aristippus]

It depends on the questions and the conversation. I only watched the 4th video. I think the conversation shouldn't be awkward and there's no need to ask strange questions. I only ask for a person's opinion if I care. I'm not using conversation to fake like I care or to fake like I give a d@mn about the other person's opinion.

I'm not going to let some random, strange question about someone's opinion be the first thing that comes out of my mouth as the default thing to say. I might ask them what they think IF IT IS APPROPRIATE FOR THE SITUATION. If I were having a drink (and if I were still available, which I'm not.... I'm engaged), and let's say a woman took a seat next to me I might say hello and then ask how she is. Then if she was having a drink, I might ask what she's drinking and if it's good. Just normal conversation.

And during our normal (or interesting) conversation, I'd maintain eye contact. Maybe glance at something in the surroundings or let my eyes wander down to her neck or shoulder, then return eye contact. I would notice if she were smiling. Is she positioning herself closer to me? Is she beginning to get that glazed look that women get when they feel attracted to you? I'm looking for these signals grouped together and repeated over and over.... Is she slowly inching her way toward me as we talk about anything?

Is she touching me? If her body isn't getting closer to me, is she inching her arms or legs closer? Did she wink at me? Lean her upper body towards me? Is she maintaining eye contact with me while stroking her skin or an object (like the top of her glass or a straw or her jewelry)? Is she placing physical barriers between us or removing physical barriers? A barrier could be anything. Did she place her purse between me and her, or move her purse to the other side? Maybe she grabbed my arm and squeezed it while talking about something sexual.

On the other side, did she back away? Put an object between us? Frown? Put her hand between me and her in a gesture that resembles anything offensive or defensive? (One example would be like the hand in a pushing or stop position without actually touching you, palm rigid and facing you. Or a bent arm with the fist clenched between you and her.). Am I going to ask a woman who is frowning and keeping her distance and placing barriers between us for a phone number? No!!! If she humors me and gives me the number, it will be a fake number. If she's terrible at lieing and gives me her real number, she won't answer. Most likely she won't give me her number. (Not that numbers are the goal...numbers mean nothing. They're only a means to an end.)

But if she's smiling and we're having a good conversation and she's rubbing my arm and when I'm rubbing her upper back she inches closer to me, then I can be pretty sure that 9 times out of 10 she'll give me her number. I already know and I'm not making an event of the number. The goal is getting together again with a woman who is very interested in you. The number is a SIDE EFFECT of her high interest level. Getting a number from a woman with high interest is like the symptom (for lack of a better word) of the cause (her interest in me).

If we were living, say, 500 years ago, we wouldn't have telephones. I'd just ask her where I could find her again and probably also tell her where she could find me. The number is just a means to continue spending time with a woman you're enjoying who's also enjoying you. Anyway, I hope I answered your question. But to sum up. Conversation is a part of sexual and non-sexual relationships. It won't help you move things forward without some sort of physical advancing on both her and your part. To put it more bluntly, sex where only one party advances is called rape. Don't fool yourself into thinking this is something you're doing TO her that she has no participation in. Relationships (one night or 20 years) require BOTH of your participation.

 

[Fly By Night]

Some great insight, thanks! Going back to school real soon, I got to really commit if I want the results. It makes sense that if you were good with women you can only get better since you recognize all the subtle advances. +Rep.

Lessons Learned

• Watch for subtle advances
• Eye contact (at least something I need to work on)
• Use relevant conversation

 

[Aristippus]

You're welcome. Have fun!

 

[Aristippus]

Fly,

Just a note. It's been a long time since I read Anti-Dump's machine in the DJ Bible. It's definitely worth reading. Read it and absorb it and internalize the attitudes. The Machine was intended to find women with high interest and to weed out the ones with low interest.

It wasn't about trying to create interest in an un-interested woman. To me this is the easier way to approach dealing with women. Find the ones that are already interested. Like I said. His machine is spot-on. His focus is on testing women's interest level and then weeding out the ones who aren't suitable. You're basically reversing roles and switching from a weaker role of seeking approval to a role of seeing whether or not the woman is worth your time.

The machine describes what behaviors to look for and how to find interested women. Anyway, I just wanted to mention this because I think it would be worth your time to review it.

 

[Fly By Night]

Sure thing, I pretty much scanned over it to get the gist. I don't know if I am ready to start using that theory because of my lack of successes but I'll read it when I get some time.

 

[youngmack]

So what are the signs specifically speaking?

 

[Fly By Night]

Is she touching me? If her body isn't getting closer to me, is she inching her arms or legs closer? Did she wink at me? Lean her upper body towards me? Is she maintaining eye contact with me while stroking her skin or an object (like the top of her glass or a straw or her jewelry)? Is she placing physical barriers between us or removing physical barriers? A barrier could be anything. Did she place her purse between me and her, or move her purse to the other side? Maybe she grabbed my arm and squeezed it while talking about something sexual.

On the other side, did she back away? Put an object between us? Frown? Put her hand between me and her in a gesture that resembles anything offensive or defensive? (One example would be like the hand in a pushing or stop position without actually touching you, palm rigid and facing you. Or a bent arm with the fist clenched between you and her.). Am I going to ask a woman who is frowning and keeping her distance and placing barriers between us for a phone number? No!!! If she humors me and gives me the number, it will be a fake number. If she's terrible at lieing and gives me her real number, she won't answer. Most likely she won't give me her number. (Not that numbers are the goal...numbers mean nothing. They're only a means to an end.)

But if she's smiling and we're having a good conversation and she's rubbing my arm and when I'm rubbing her upper back she inches closer to me, then I can be pretty sure that 9 times out of 10 she'll give me her number. I already know and I'm not making an event of the number. The goal is getting together again with a woman who is very interested in you. The number is a SIDE EFFECT of her high interest level. Getting a number from a woman with high interest is like the symptom (for lack of a better word) of the cause (her interest in me).

These are pretty much common signs.

 

[Aristippus]

Pay attention to the quote in Fly's response. I will state this over and over again. One behavior by itself means nothing. It's many signals grouped together and repeated over and over, that lets you know. If a woman touches you during conversation, that by itself doesn't necessarily mean she is interested in you sexually.

By itself it may simply mean she's just comfortable with you or that she has friendship feelings. But if she's touching me excessively during our conversation and then puts her hand on my chest and gently glides her hand down my chest during our conversation, that's a sign that she's interested. See the difference? The idea is that we don't want to read too much into one behavior and make false assumptions.

One behavior alone will not give us enough information.

If a woman is sitting across the table from me, we now have a physical barrier. She can't scoot closer to me while sitting across from me. You might say "What now? How can the 2 of you do anything? How can you know?". Well, let's say she's maintaining eye contact and then narrows her eyes. I might rest my hands on the table close enough to where she can touch them.

Then I'll just leave my hands there and maintain warm eye contact. Maybe she touches my hand gently for a second or two during our conversation while maintaining eye contact. Then she continues talking and while locking eyes with me starts twirling her hair. Then if one of her hands is resting on the table, I might gently touch the top of it and stroke the top of her hand with my fingers and then rest my hand on the table 2 inches away from hers. I just leave it there and wait to see if she touches me again. But I'm not looking at my hand. I'm keeping eye contact and listening to what she's saying.

If she touches my hand or rubs it, that's another signal. I might wait for a dozen signals before I initiate touching her hands. Then I wait for her to reciprocate or to continue throwing me more signals, which is another form of reciprocating. I'm simply waiting for groups of subtle behaviors. Then I initiate slight touch and observe her responses. I can also tell whether or not she likes something.

Does she quickly pull her hand away? Does she push your hand off? If she frowned or pushed your hand away, why would you try to kiss her? You're setting yourself up for rejection. If you observe closely you can tell ahead of time.