the issue of trust

[joekerr31]

someone replied to one of my post and it got me thinking on this topic.

can you really trust anyone?

im beginning to think the answer is no for 99% of the people out there.

i think you can trust someone when, and only when, their principles govern their behavior more than their needs / wants.

it would seem as though even people who have been trustworthy for years can turn on you if it suits their purpose. this isn't to say they intentionally hurt you, they simply become concerned with their needs only and could care less what is happening with you.

ergo. is it any wonder that men and women have so much trouble in relationships. when you think about it, same sex relationships have plenty of trouble, and they don't have 1/2 the trust issues that a relationship does.

I think the moment someone doesn't "need" you in one capacity or another they become untrustworthy.

i suppose we could see trust as a grey issue, wherein people can be trusted with some things but not with others.

i wonder how much this lack of trust is the root cause of many dysfunctions we see in people in the world. depression, anxiety, stress, etc.

it also explains why people raised in families wherein even family members can't trust each other often end up with sever psychological issues later in life.

it also explains the fervent attachment many have to God - the one trust worthy source.

now, if folks agree that we live in a worth where trust between 2 human beings is rare, and even when it happens is easily broken, then what psychological perspective should we have to function optimally in such a world.

i suppose one perspective would be the 'dog eat dog' model. if theres no trust out there, then stop expecting or needing it. if you can't trust anyone then theres no need to be trust worthy yourself.

the second perspective would be to rise above the world around you. to be trust worthy and accept that such trust will often be betrayed.

anyone have any interesting insights on this topic?

 

[joekerr31]

actually ill throw another thought in the mix.

i tend to see humans as one of three classes. either sheep, shephards or wolves.

most poeple are sheep. an AFC is sheep that has a hard time staying with the pack.

wolves are predatory and prey on the sheep. I think some people use DJ'ing in the wrong way and are actually wolves.

Shephards are those who see the greater reality we live in, but choose to help the sheep.

I personally believe that only the shephards can be trusted. The wolves obviously cannot. and the sheep just go which ever way the herd goes, or in humans, which ever way their brainwashed state of existence tells them to go.

this board has some great shephards like VU and Rollo (and others).

perhaps trust is as simple as this basic anology.

 

[STR8UP]

Dude, I could tell you some stories that would make your head spin.

Try working for over a decade to build an "empire" just to have a childhood friend steal a good chunk of what you worked for all those years.

Something like that will change your perspective on trust and cause you more psychological problems than you can imagine.

As for women, I have made a few posts recently that pretty much sum up my thoughts on how much you can trust them.

I have been ripped off, cheated on, and lied to more than I think ten human beings should be exposed to. And I'm sure my case is mind compared to some.

The way I see it, you should only hand out trust on an as needed basis, and never unconditionally. Always, always, ALWAYS put checks in place to minimize the damages should someone prove to themselves to be untrustworthy.

 

[Vulpine]

Trust can't be given, it must be earned. Trust is built by a series of trustworthy behavior demonstrations.

But there is no guarantee of reciprocation. There is nothing that says that tomorrow you won't wake up with a knife in your back. It sounds bleak, but it seems that people just aren't trustworthy anymore.

But wait: 100% "blind" trust IS actually around. But, you have to look for it. Two soldiers in a foxhole? A pitcher and catcher? If you squint, you catch flickers of 100% trust. The concept is sound, provided there is some sort of symbiotic relationship. But it never seems to last more than a few moments.

I've come to believe that the expression "trust" is only good to describe up to 99% of the faith... at 100% it becomes "blind trust". You have to ignore a certain amount of disbelief to achieve that last 1% (see also "blind faith" in regards to religion). And the second there is a flicker of doubt, back to <100%.

"Trust" is really another romanticized fairytale idea like "Love". People REALLY want to believe in the concept, but, people REALLY want to believe they'll win the lottery someday as well.

 

[blueguy]

If $500,000 was accidentally wired to your bank account and nobody said a word on who it was from, where it came from, etc., what would you do?

Humans are all self-centered. That isn't to say they can't benefit each other.

I agree that trust has to be earned. And it is only earned in others' eyes if you have value to another and show respect for yourself. Draw boundaries.

It is a lot easier for somebody to screw over a faceless nobody (as in the opening scenario) or a doormat than it is for somebody to screw over a hard-working father of three and close friend, for instance.

It all depends on how much value you provide to the other person and what lines you draw.

 

[drmeathead]

man i used to trust...i think. my ex had a whole bunch of questionable things pop up. i trusted her. then i caught lying about something small, THAT I COULD PROVE. that opened the door to the possibility of those questionable things becoming objectionable. i dumped her on the spot.

i guess my views on trust are: 1. dont get in to a committed relationship with a girl you cant trust. 2. once you are in that relationship you trust till proven otherwise 3. once you see you cant trust get out. 4. i dont really trust any women. they act on feelings way too much, then look to justify and/or excuse

 

[squirrels]

It's one thing to form alliances, friendships, relationships...it's another thing entirely to become RELIANT on those things for your own personal well-being.

It's the equivalent of being attracted to a girl vs NEEDING her to feel complete. This is nothing new...it's just that some people become complacent, thinking they can always prop themselves up on the shoulders of others. Never eat out of someone's hand. Always be looking for a way to feed yourself, to get your own. Because people ARE selfish by nature. In fact, it's only by being selfish that we contribute the most to life.

 

[speed dawg]

Trust IS the relationship. Without it, you have nothing. I agree with these views for the most part. I don't trust people very easily.

However, I also believe you'll miss out on a lot of things by not taking that chance.

 

[Victory Unlimited]

Wow...Great Post JOEkerr,


Glad to see some Brothers in Arms on here with the NERVE to start threads like this one. And I'm also glad my fellow officers here have been willing to post in a thread here in the Mature Man section that DIDN'T have "How do I make her touch my wee-wee?" as it's subject heading...LOL



Now, back on topic.


Yeah, trust is an interesting thing. It is a concept that does NOT exist in a vacuum. And It can never really exist APART from some other concepts that are prerequisites----some of which, the very IDEA of them make SOME men uncomfortable because TO THEM----it defies their tentative grasps on the "versions" of logic and reason that they have learned from text books.

Trust is indeed an "issue". It is a byproduct of the existence of three things:

1.KNOWLEDGE
2.RESPECT

and

3.FAITH

I believe that TRUST, much like a river, flows (or shall we say "issues") forth from these three OCEANS. It has been my observation that in all things in life, whether it be your abilities, your car, your paycheck, or your WOMAN, there is a certain order of things.

But let's focus on just using WOMEN as an example:

First you meet a woman, and then begin the process of getting to KNOW her. This is where the KNOWLEDGE portion begins.

Secondly, now that you KNOW her, if you recognize her as having VALUE, you make a decision to keep her around because she has somehow differentiated herself from those women who DON'T improve your quality of life by her continued presence. And it is indeed BECAUSE of these perceived differences to other women that has given you PAUSE---have given you CAUSE to RESPECT them.

Now let us go a little DEEPER into the fray, soldiers. This IS an "Intelligence" operation, isn't it? lol

As the Bible says (no, not the one for DJs, that OTHER one...),

"In the beginning was the WORD, and the WORD was with God, and the WORD was God."

The Victory Unlimited Sosuave Translation:

"If you want to REALLY know what something IS, pay close attention to what it is CALLED. And WHAT it is called signifies (is a sign, is a PICTURE, is a glimpse) into what it REALLY is. What you CALL something, IS that thing."

So why does a woman who differentiates herself from other women of lesser or incompatablie qualities cause you to pause?

Because that's what the word "respect" actually means:

"RE" means "again". And "SPECT" means "to look".

So RESPECT means that you have been inspired to "LOOK AGAIN"...at this woman whom you have previously aquired KNOWLEDGE of.

Thirdly, when a woman has entered your life that you KNOW well enough to have earned your RESPECT, that's when you have amassed enough evidence to step out in FAITH that she will REMAIN a person of consitent enough character that you can now---------TRUST.

So yes, first comes the knowledge, then comes the respect, then comes an act of faith. Because at THAT point, TRUST has become something that you can then CALCULATE----and subsequently, decide it's WORTH the risk.




Peace...one day.

 

[Victory Unlimited]

This is yet ANOTHER interesting thread started by JOEKERR that I had hoped would have gotten more attention...so I'm BUMPING it.

 

[Colossus]

Great posts VU and JoeKerr.

I have spent many an hour contemplating the issue of trust.

I like how VU broke it down, and even more so I like how he made it clear that there is always risk in trust; i.e.--You must calculate if that individual is worth the risk, based on your knowledge and respect.
There is a book called The Four Agreements, which is an outstanding book of wisdom, regardless of your religious or spiritual background. Many of you have probably read it, but I think every DJ should.

There is a paragraph in that book that changed the way i look at trust:

"If others say one thing, but do another, you are lying to yourself if you dont listen to their actions..."

"If someone is not treating you with love and respect, it is a gift if they walk away from you. If that person doesnt walk away, you will surely endure many years of suffering with him or her. Walking away may hurt for a while, but your heart will eventually heal. Then you can choose what you really want. You will find that you dont need to trust others as much as you need to trust yourself to make the right choices."

 

[Metro3pilot]

That's a great book Colossus,

if you can't trust anyone then theres no need to be trust worthy yourself

you're the one who has to look yourself in the mirror ..

a friend once said to me : " if you're a good person and I'm a good person, then it stands to reason that good women still exist "

what is a man without dreams ?

trust is easily broken and some time's due to our expectations, or thinking someone is different than they really are.

I noticed my trust is most often broken by people I want something from, when I have no expectations from someone, the trust rarely seems broken ...just a thought
:rockon:

 

[Interceptor]

We become vulnerable the moment w become emotionally vested.


becasue we are all different and have had different experiences, we all have different perspecetives.
Some have the tools and enlightenment, and many, many others do not.

Thus, you will find conflict in these areas in which you invest yuorself emotionally,.
After all, if we truly seek love in our relationship, how can we honestly expect a woman to love us in return for nothing?

Yet "there lies the rub"...

This is why it is important to understand your level of understanding, and consciousness.

The Law of Attraction, and understanding your Creation, and your Vibrations and how to USE them in your favor is imperative in this time.
You truly don't want to be around people who are not in that good vibrational resonance with you. Meaning, you don't want to or need to hang around those people who are liabilities, and have no consideration for you.

This is why it is so important to look inside your SELF and find out who you relaly are.
Don't hide from yourself, and don't hide yourself in others.
Don't find yourSELF in others. And don't LOSE yourSELF in others.The "good" people in your life are ther because they resonate with you. They have had similar experiences, and perspectives like you.
As Mature Men, whom have gone through SO MUCH SH*T in our lives, and are tired of the cycles, and want to break free from the status quo, the Matrix, and AFC dom that has been so strongly programmed in males you would bet it ws injected into our DNA FFS...
Don't you think it's time to start to think "outside the box"?

 

[Mr.Positive]

When you stop trusting others, you lose something in yourself, you start losing your vision of what your ideals, or values are...ie, you start down the path of not trusting yourself.

With trust, you must have integrity...and if you have no integrity, you can not trust, and you will not trust others.

Because trusting others is just that, like VU stated, faith. Faith in believing that integrity exists, and that people can, and will do the right thing.

With that being said, trust must be earned as some one else stated.

I'll tell you, I've got several friends, men and women, and family, that I would trust with my life.

We've all been burned before, and lost trust in someone..but that's the thing that's important to realize, you lose trust in that one person, not everyone!

Life is about taking chances, taking risks, and you take risks with people by giving them your trust. You give them this trust because you see integrity in them....and THAT is what must be earned.

 

[STR8UP]

I agree. Everyone should read this and chime in.

Sometimes I miss the days when I was able to trust people. These days there are very, VERY few people I would say that I trust, and even then I never take anything for granted. My parents are really the only ones I'm sure I can count on to never turn their backs on me.

At least I know with what I have experienced in life with regards to trust, I am now a better person, for better or for worse.

I'm telling you guys, you really have no idea what people are capable of until you introduce large sums of money into the equation. Some people might give you the shirt off their backs and the sandwich off their plate, but the second they are tempted with a substantial sum of money they won't hesitate to potentially ruin your life even if the benefit to them is only minimal.

With women....nowadays I take it with a grain of salt. If a chick fukks me over I smile and walk the other way. Yea, it sucks. But it isn't life altering. If a woman has so much power over you that it alters the course of your life then there's something wrong.

 

[Victory Unlimited]

Yo Troops,


Great responses...:yes:

And something else that just occured to me recently is that TRUST, like "CONFIDENCE", can also be situation, circumstance, and "person" specific.

What I mean is this:

Just like Mr. Positive said, I TOO have friends that I can trust with my life----some of whom may even take a bullet for me. But ironically, those SAME friends are people that I would NOT "trust" to date my sister. lol

I have found (in MY opinion), that just like LOVE is measured by interest level (how far is the other person willing to deny their own selfishnes in order to make POSITIVE impacts on your life), I believe that TRUST can be measured by AREAS of integrity that people have "revealed" to you over the course of the time that it has taken for you to get to KNOW them.

But what do you guys (AND GIRLS) think?

Has anybody else here personally experienced how the concept of TRUST might be AREA SPECIFIC when it comes to the particular people you have encountered in your life?

 

[joekerr31]

well i think that you can only trust what you know.

i know the nature of a chair, so i can trust that when i sit down on it it will hold me.

if two people know each others nature inside and out, they can trust each other. and the only way two people can know each other that well, is if they are very similar - ie. share similar views, beliefs, personality traits, etc. - when you know what another person is thinking even if they aren't saying it, not just know their mood but know almost the exact thoughts they are having - when you have that level of 'knowing' then trust can exist.

otherwise, trust is always suceptible to circumstance and self interest.

to str8ups point - one of the hardest things i think about getting older is becoming wiser. while becoming wiser / mature is a positive thing, its also a heavy burden to bear. its much easier when you are younger to believe in some fanciful future where all your dreams come true is awaiting you around the next corner.

its much harder as you get older when you realize that you are living in a hard world that runs on cold hard cash and that most situations with others are often mutually parasitic and rarely symbiotic - all while realizing that the time on the clock is ticking down and becoming consciously aware that you only have so many 'youthful' years left.

 

[KontrollerX]

I got through life just fine and happy for many many years fully believing in the phrase DTA don't trust anybody but when I bought into the Oprah and Dr. Phil type b.s argument that says you can only be fulfilled in life if you are willing to place your trust into someone else I got screwed over more than once.

Its nonsense.

You don't need to trust anyone to be happy in life. Just take whatever enjoyment you want out of whatever person you are with be it friend or lover and be happy. No I'm not saying use them or don't show them love. I'm simply saying don't trust them because they can turn on you and likely will if a good enough opportunity in their mind presents itself. Always be on your guard with everyone who gets close to you.

You don't have to trust people to be fulfilled. To do that you put your happiness on the line because nothing is certain in this world most especially love or loyalty. Live free and live for the moment and you'll never end up carrying emotional baggage no matter what happens.

The only trust that will not benefit life's many traitors to break is a trust with legal consequences.

Thats the only kind of trust I will enter into ever again.

 

[edger]

I don't trust ANYONE. The only person I have faith in and trust, is MYSELF. From what I've seen happen to others, you can't even trust your own mother or father, brother or sister. Now that is sad and disturbing.

it also explains the fervent attachment many have to God - the one trust worthy source.

The one trust worthy source you say, eh? Interesting. I digress, and will say, what's even more sad and disturbing is that not even god can be relied on as a trustworthy source, for those of you who believe he/she exists. Sorry guys to bring it up, I hate to bring god/religion into this, but since Joekker mentioned it, I feel compelled to do so. It has even recently been discovered that even Mother Teresa of Calcutta herself, felt the absence of and had major issues with god. I believe it was KarmaSutra who used to have the signature which read, "There is no God where I am" or something to that effect. Very true Karma. My issues with god mainly stem from the suffering that's experienced in the men/women interaction process. I've said it before, ever since learning the truth about how ruthless the male/female interaction is, my views on god have changed considerably. I can go on and on the topic of god, but this isn't the time and place for it, so I will stop.

 

[Luthor Rex]

I would say a large part of the problem is that people aren't growing up any more. We have more children between the ages of 18 to 45 now more than ever.

Aside from that most people are classicaly selfish. I work at a company where some of these employees are really ****ing stupid. All they can see is their short term selfish goals. They can't see how someone can act in their own best self-interest even if that means they give up short term advantages.

Enlightened self-interest is a philosophy in ethics which states that persons who act to further the interests of others (or the interests of the group or groups to which they belong), ultimately serve their own self-interest. It has often been simply expressed by the belief that an individual, group, or even a commercial entity will "do well by doing good".

For example, a merchant likely will maximize profit over the long term if he chooses to be generous to his customers in a manner beyond the requirement of policy, say, in accepting returns and refunding the purchase price when not required to by the letter of the law. By doing so, he may lose short term gain but likely will eventually profit from increased business as he gains a reputation for being reasonable, honest and generous.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlightened_self-interest