The importance of advancing to intimacy as soon as possible or....?

[SargeMaximus]

Then you just haven't done it well and learned how to do it well enough, or are trying things that don't work. Thomas Edison tried to make a light bulb 10,000 time before he succeeded. When he was asked about failing 10,000 times he said I didn't fail, I just tried 10,000 times that didn't work.

The problem with most people in these situations is they are unwilling to accept it will take a lot of failures before they see success.

The most dangerous phrase you can utter is "I already know that" because it means you are closed off to learning. If you already know something but aren't succeeding at it, then you simply don't know it well enough.

But that’s the thing: I HAVE gotten success by abandoning your suggested method and developing my own, but now I want to improve it and you are literally telling me to just do what never worked. So what am I missing? If you accept that I have gotten laid multipletimes NOT doing things the social way, AND you accept that I never lost my virginity trying to be social, WHY do you insist being social is the way?

Like, you’re literally telling me I have to keep trying till I get what works, and I’m telling you I did that, but I want more, so you tell me to do what didnt work. What are you saying here?

 

[Sebastian0001]

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Look at the relationships that you heard about where they were "friends" and then it "just happened". Do you think these guys seem alpha to you? Do you think these guys are the kinds of guys she touches herself to on lonely nights? Or are they nice guy providers? You can certainly be one of these nice guy providers and it CAN work to get into a relationship with a girl, but it's a massive time investment on your end for a tiny chance that she decides to "select" you. You'd have to orbit a lot of women for even a chance at being "selected". And once you do, the relationship dynamic will be the kind where she bosses you around, is always angry and arguing with you, the sex is lame and infrequent and she controls it, and she is secretly cheating on you with the alpha guys.

If you want a relationship with a woman, the best position to be in is the alpha who turns her on, yet is willing to be in a relationship with her. It is difficult to pull that off in a functioning relationship though, because if you are the alpha, she will do anything she can to ensure she retains you and locks you down 100%, even if you've already given her a commitment. Your word won't be enough. She will be in constant fear and anxiety that you're going to leave or you're out there banging other women. This is where the manipulation starts. She may try to isolate you from friends, get you to marry her, demand you block exes on social media, trash talk your female friends, get you to gain weight and get out of shape, move in with you or have you move in with her, etc. Ironically, this kind of fear and anxiety make her extremely hot and turned on and sexual.

In the first scenario, she's arguing/manipulating because she's frustrated that you aren't alpha, can't provide the masculine polarity she craves, and can't turn her on the way she wants to be (though she doesn't consciously understand that this is the source of her frustration and anger - she just knows the emotions she is experiencing without the underlying reason and so if she is frustrated with you, whatever it is must be your fault). In the second scenario she's arguing with you because she is fearful and anxious that you'll leave her or cheat on her and so her motivation is to try to lock you down and ensure she has no competition. Both scenarios aren't that enjoyable but if I had to choose one I'd just the second, or simply just have short term flings.

Why are these the only two options? There was a recent interview I was watching about this happily married couple and they really are truly happily married and in love. And they were talking about how in the beginning, they were just simple friends. And then they started hanging out a lot and then at some point it changed from friendship to a relationship. And now they are glowing in happiness together. The way you make it sound is that its either an alpha James Bond guy who she will do anything to have sex with or the alternate which is a provider guy who has to orbit around and be kind of a loser. You make it sound like these are the only two paths. So where does the example I just shared fit in? There are many stories like this. A woman and a man get close, start as friends and its not romantic but then they get closer and then at some point it transitions from "just friends" to a sexual and a relationship.

 

[oldmanofthesea]

Why are these the only two options? There was a recent interview I was watching about this happily married couple and they really are truly happily married and in love. And they were talking about how in the beginning, they were just simple friends. And then they started hanging out a lot and then at some point it changed from friendship to a relationship. And now they are glowing in happiness together. The way you make it sound is that its either an alpha James Bond guy who she will do anything to have sex with or the alternate which is a provider guy who has to orbit around and be kind of a loser. You make it sound like these are the only two paths. So where does the example I just shared fit in? There are many stories like this. A woman and a man get close, start as friends and its not romantic but then they get closer and then at some point it transitions from "just friends" to a sexual and a relationship.

Well, you're 41..... you haven't found it. I'm 45 and I haven't found it. The two of us are but a tiny sample size but we can augment this with what we see from those in relationships all around us. Of all my married friends, or my friends in relationships, I would guess that maybe just one of them are healthy and happy and truly love each other, respect each other, and are turned on by one another. Doesn't mean there are never challenges but overall they work well together. So can you be friends with a girl and then become lovers? Sure, but it is incredibly rare. So rare it can't be relied upon and the 99.9% odds are that if you choose to try to take this approach, you'll waste your entire life's energy being used by women who don't truly like you, getting almost nothing in return, and feeling frustrated time after time again.

Second, all these interviews of "glowing happy couples", how do you know they are all being honest? How do you know she didn't settle on him as a beta provider and he's just happy to get whatever sex she's willing to give him and has no idea she's banging Chad behind his back? And you are seeing these interviews for a reason - if they stop people on the street at random and ask them how happy they are and how they met, out of 100 couples, assuming all are honest, how many of those are truly happy and would say they started out as friends? And of the 100 couples, if the producers of the show only had the time to broadcast 5 of the 100, which ones do you think they would choose? Do you think they are biased?

Why do I believe there are generally only two options? Because this is what I have both seen in other relationships, and what I've experienced in my own personal evolution via red pill awareness. Every girl I dated after my divorce (when I was blue pilled) dumped me. My divorce was my ex-wife's decision. Then I learned why. I wasn't masculine enough. I was exuding needy, relationship-driven, beta provider vibes thanks to my upbringing and societal brain washing. Aren't those the same vibes that would help people get together in an LTR starting out as friends?? Then why was I constantly dumped when I was such a nice and caring and cooperative guy? I just wanted a relationship and to do nice things for my GFs. Seems logical it would make a relationship work right? Never did. And I see the same thing day in and day out both here on the forum, and with my friends in real life. One of my friends for example is 28 and he wants an LTR and to have a family. He treats his GFs very well, makes good money, decent looking, funny, wants to spend time with them, but they all dump him. Why? Same reason they dumped me. Once I started operating in a masculine manner, I became the decision maker in ending or continuing relationships, I got hotter and younger women, the women were more highly interested and invested in me, and the sex was 10x better. While this is better than getting dumped, it brings its own set of problems as I discussed before.

It's your choice though. Go make friends with a bunch of women and do nice things for them. Watch as they absorb it all and maybe give you some mixed messages on their feelings toward you - enough to string you along another month or year, and then you watch as they sleep with other guys. The last girl I dated for 18 months was a solid 8, maybe 8.5. She had several guys who were playing that simp role where they were always spending time with her and giving her attention and doing nice things for her "as a friend". They had invested literally YEARS in her. She knew they wanted to bang her but she liked what they were offering her so she compartmentalized them as friends and that's all it would ever be. I almost felt bad for them when SHE slid into my DMs, having never met me before, and within two weeks I was pounding her 3x a night and cvmming in her. I knew their disappointment because I'd tried their strategy and wasted too much of my life's time and energy on it.

Buddy of mine who I would describe as alpha - his ex GF from 2 years ago is engaged to be married to some beta provider looking dude now. She texted my friend a few weeks back and asked him for a hookup, drove over to his house and fvcked his brains out. She is still engaged to be married to the other guy. Are you seeing a pattern?

 

[BackInTheGame78]

But that’s the thing: I HAVE gotten success by abandoning your suggested method and developing my own, but now I want to improve it and you are literally telling me to just do what never worked. So what am I missing? If you accept that I have gotten laid multipletimes NOT doing things the social way, AND you accept that I never lost my virginity trying to be social, WHY do you insist being social is the way?

Like, you’re literally telling me I have to keep trying till I get what works, and I’m telling you I did that, but I want more, so you tell me to do what didnt work. What are you saying here?

I'm not telling you it's the way, I am simply telling you your ceiling will be very low if you don't learn those skills. You keep insisting you did all these things, but the truth of the matter is you probably gave up before you tried enough different things because that is the default human way...revert to status quo because it's safe, known and stable, then convince yourself how much better it is than whatever other way you tried, likely didn't do anywhere close to enough with and then reverted back.

Your mind doesn't want you to thrive, it is only there to help you survive. You have to want to thrive and then do what it takes to do it.

I'm just telling you that you think you gave a far greater effort than you actually did more than likely.

 

[SargeMaximus]

I'm not telling you it's the way, I am simply telling you your ceiling will be very low if you don't learn those skills. You keep insisting you did all these things, but the truth of the matter is you probably gave up before you tried enough different things because that is the default human way...revert to status quo because it's safe, known and stable, then convince yourself how much better it is than whatever other way you tried, likely didn't do anywhere close to enough with and then reverted back.

Your mind doesn't want you to thrive, it is only there to help you survive. You have to want to thrive and then do what it takes to do it.

I'm just telling you that you think you gave a far greater effort than you actually did more than likely.

Perhaps but I do have the fact that even trying to do things “the better way” I remained a virgin while doing things my way I became what I call a low level player.

So, I can accept that I need to change. There’s a great book called “What got you here, won’t get you THERE” which is just like the title suggests. So I know that.

The problem I’m having is that when I do try things the social way, I hit in the issues of authenticity and social attack I mentioned previously.

So, how would you suggest I work in these things and how would you suggest I work on them without falling into the fly buzzing against the window syndrome where I do but see no results and keep failing.

 

[derby1]

A woman and a man get close, start as friends and its not romantic but then they get closer and then at some point it transitions from "just friends" to a sexual and a relationship.

women know they want to Fck you in the first 2 seconds of meeting you, women dont love like men. they are hard core negotiatiors. Men are saps, women are mercenaries.(as you already know youve had your time pimped)

"friends first "purely means she watched him over 2 years secure that managers position on 100k a year.

OR she has 2 baby daddies, knows shes worthless so takes on the clean up guy, & talks like hes a miracle sent from God

 

[Barrister]

I usually try to have kissed the woman (assuming I am into her) by the middle of the 1st date. This immediately lets her know I am serious about being physical/sexual and immediately puts her into that mindset. I would say I can wait a little longer for sex - but if it isn’t happening by the 4th date at the latest I am probably going to eject because it starts to feel like a time sink with little payoff. If she’s into you, you should be in bed by date 4 at the latest but preferably date 3.

If you haven’t banged by date 4 she is not that into you and you have likely been friendzoned.

 

[Sebastian0001]

Well, you're 41..... you haven't found it. I'm 45 and I haven't found it. The two of us are but a tiny sample size but we can augment this with what we see from those in relationships all around us. Of all my married friends, or my friends in relationships, I would guess that maybe just one of them are healthy and happy and truly love each other, respect each other, and are turned on by one another. Doesn't mean there are never challenges but overall they work well together. So can you be friends with a girl and then become lovers? Sure, but it is incredibly rare. So rare it can't be relied upon and the 99.9% odds are that if you choose to try to take this approach, you'll waste your entire life's energy being used by women who don't truly like you, getting almost nothing in return, and feeling frustrated time after time again.

Second, all these interviews of "glowing happy couples", how do you know they are all being honest? How do you know she didn't settle on him as a beta provider and he's just happy to get whatever sex she's willing to give him and has no idea she's banging Chad behind his back? And you are seeing these interviews for a reason - if they stop people on the street at random and ask them how happy they are and how they met, out of 100 couples, assuming all are honest, how many of those are truly happy and would say they started out as friends? And of the 100 couples, if the producers of the show only had the time to broadcast 5 of the 100, which ones do you think they would choose? Do you think they are biased?

Why do I believe there are generally only two options? Because this is what I have both seen in other relationships, and what I've experienced in my own personal evolution via red pill awareness. Every girl I dated after my divorce (when I was blue pilled) dumped me. My divorce was my ex-wife's decision. Then I learned why. I wasn't masculine enough. I was exuding needy, relationship-driven, beta provider vibes thanks to my upbringing and societal brain washing. Aren't those the same vibes that would help people get together in an LTR starting out as friends?? Then why was I constantly dumped when I was such a nice and caring and cooperative guy? I just wanted a relationship and to do nice things for my GFs. Seems logical it would make a relationship work right? Never did. And I see the same thing day in and day out both here on the forum, and with my friends in real life. One of my friends for example is 28 and he wants an LTR and to have a family. He treats his GFs very well, makes good money, decent looking, funny, wants to spend time with them, but they all dump him. Why? Same reason they dumped me. Once I started operating in a masculine manner, I became the decision maker in ending or continuing relationships, I got hotter and younger women, the women were more highly interested and invested in me, and the sex was 10x better. While this is better than getting dumped, it brings its own set of problems as I discussed before.

It's your choice though. Go make friends with a bunch of women and do nice things for them. Watch as they absorb it all and maybe give you some mixed messages on their feelings toward you - enough to string you along another month or year, and then you watch as they sleep with other guys. The last girl I dated for 18 months was a solid 8, maybe 8.5. She had several guys who were playing that simp role where they were always spending time with her and giving her attention and doing nice things for her "as a friend". They had invested literally YEARS in her. She knew they wanted to bang her but she liked what they were offering her so she compartmentalized them as friends and that's all it would ever be. I almost felt bad for them when SHE slid into my DMs, having never met me before, and within two weeks I was pounding her 3x a night and cvmming in her. I knew their disappointment because I'd tried their strategy and wasted too much of my life's time and energy on it.

Buddy of mine who I would describe as alpha - his ex GF from 2 years ago is engaged to be married to some beta provider looking dude now. She texted my friend a few weeks back and asked him for a hookup, drove over to his house and fvcked his brains out. She is still engaged to be married to the other guy. Are you seeing a pattern?

yeah but this from your sample size and what I am saying is from my sample size. You might have certain types of people you hang out with and as do I. The type of people I hang out don't find it acceptable to just have sex like that. Its far more conservative. Different cultures have different views on sex too. I think the Caucasian culture is more lax on sex and my culture, the Indian culture, is more conservative. This of course is a very broad generalization and there are tons of outliers but I think in general maybe 70% of Indian women would never sleep with a guy on the first date and maybe not even the fist few dates.

So, let me ask you this, what are some examples of specific things you did differently once you transformed from "not masculine enough" to "operating in a masculine manner" - do you have some specific examples?

 

[Romanemp22]

The cases of them first being friends bla bla are basically telling you she was keeping her options open and she kept that guy along side if her other Chad options don't work out.

Never accept to be her 'friend' because she will not look at you as a possible mating match. Always, and I mean always go for kiss on first date and on second third try sex, whether bj or PV. Guys who say otherwise don't have the ballz to take the lead and initiative.

 

[CAPSLOCK BANDIT]

Any door that can be opened and is not opened, might end up getting locked through resentment so when you have the opportunity you shouldn't flirt with it, but rather just take it when presented, walking away without causing offensive is a skill

 

[BackInTheGame78]

I usually try to have kissed the woman (assuming I am into her) by the middle of the 1st date. This immediately lets her know I am serious about being physical/sexual and immediately puts her into that mindset. I would say I can wait a little longer for sex - but if it isn’t happening by the 4th date at the latest I am probably going to eject because it starts to feel like a time sink with little payoff. If she’s into you, you should be in bed by date 4 at the latest but preferably date 3.

If you haven’t banged by date 4 she is not that into you and you have likely been friendzoned.

Not true...two of the best relationships I have been in the sex happened on date 5 and 6...and these women were super into me, but we did a lot of other things prior...just not the actual sex. I think as long as things are progressing and escalating, you should be OK.

In fact...I think the more into a woman is, the more she could possibly try and delay sex because she knows once she fvcks you she will be basically head over heels for you and there will be "no turning back" for her...

 

[Barrister]

Not true...two of the best relationships I have been in the sex happened on date 5 and 6...and these women were super into me, but we did a lot of other things prior...just not the actual sex. I think as long as things are progressing and escalating, you should be OK.

In fact...I think the more into a woman is, the more she could possibly try and delay sex because she knows once she fvcks you she will be basically head over heels for you and there will be "no turning back" for her...

Not saying you are wrong. For me I get impatient and begin to feel like I’m wasting my time. I agree with reading the vibe. However, generally speaking you nor the woman are going to be virgins, so what exactly is the hold up at that point? You should know if you’re into the person enough by date 4 whether you want to sleep with them.

I can see there being some specific situations where you wait longer - but not many (IMO).

 

[Sebastian0001]

The cases of them first being friends bla bla are basically telling you she was keeping her options open and she kept that guy along side if her other Chad options don't work out.

Never accept to be her 'friend' because she will not look at you as a possible mating match. Always, and I mean always go for kiss on first date and on second third try sex, whether bj or PV. Guys who say otherwise don't have the ballz to take the lead and initiative.

what's PV? How would you go for the kiss if the girl isn't giving the signals and reciprocating the kino escalation? Is there any methods for these kinds of situations? Just be more aggressive?

 

[Sebastian0001]

Any door that can be opened and is not opened, might end up getting locked through resentment so when you have the opportunity you shouldn't flirt with it, but rather just take it when presented, walking away without causing offensive is a skill

what is this in reference to? resentment for what? door not opened as in not making the move? not sure what ur saying here

 

[Sebastian0001]

Not true...two of the best relationships I have been in the sex happened on date 5 and 6...and these women were super into me, but we did a lot of other things prior...just not the actual sex. I think as long as things are progressing and escalating, you should be OK.

In fact...I think the more into a woman is, the more she could possibly try and delay sex because she knows once she fvcks you she will be basically head over heels for you and there will be "no turning back" for her...

Interesting, any ideas on why that is? Why is it sex that makes her head over heals? What about the rest of the physicals intimacy before sex, can that get her head over heals to or does it generally only get there once they are penetrated? I kinda wonder why and how that works.

 

[Sebastian0001]

Not saying you are wrong. For me I get impatient and begin to feel like I’m wasting my time. I agree with reading the vibe. However, generally speaking you nor the woman are going to be virgins, so what exactly is the hold up at that point? You should know if you’re into the person enough by date 4 whether you want to sleep with them.

I can see there being some specific situations where you wait longer - but not many (IMO).

How do you know they aren't virgins? There are a still a good amount of virgins out there too for whatever reason.

 

[Barrister]

How do you know they aren't virgins? There are a still a good amount of virgins out there too for whatever reason.

I live in the US. Not sure about you. If the chick is still a virgin at 21 it’s very rare. Hence my comment.

 

[Sebastian0001]

I live in the US. Not sure about you. If the chick is still a virgin at 21 it’s very rare. Hence my comment.

I do too but there are different cultures with different views on sex.

 

[Romanemp22]

what's PV? How would you go for the kiss if the girl isn't giving the signals and reciprocating the kino escalation? Is there any methods for these kinds of situations? Just be more aggressive?

Pv =penis in vagina. It really depends on specific girl you're with at the moment. Some girls will be shy to show interest but will reciprocate your every move, she will make out with you etc.

You can't rely on woman's words, she could be testing you if she says she don't want a guy to be aggressive yet she would be wet after you pull her close to you. Do what you please and how you feel at the moment but showing that you are capable of making a move will never be wrong.

 

[oldmanofthesea]

...the Indian culture, is more conservative. This of course is a very broad generalization and there are tons of outliers but I think in general maybe 70% of Indian women would never sleep with a guy on the first date and maybe not even the fist few dates.

All women have the same primitive lizard brain deep down inside (we men do too but men and women's lizard brains are wired differently) from hundreds of thousands of years of evolution. So in that sense, culture doesn't matter, nor does ethnicity. All culture does is provide a layer of social conditioning on TOP of our biology. These cultural norms are powerful and absolutely do influence behavior, so you will need to understand it and work within it, but do know that underneath all that, all women are the same in key aspects, and how and why a woman selects a man is based primarily on these. Her culture may simply prevent her from acting on her natural impulses, and culture prevents many men from acting on theirs (which ironically is counter-productive for men's success with women).

So, let me ask you this, what are some examples of specific things you did differently once you transformed from "not masculine enough" to "operating in a masculine manner" - do you have some specific examples?

• Always escalate physically. Doesn't mean she has to accept it, but you must give her the opportunity and you must demonstrate you are a sexual being and your interest in her has this component to it. This accomplishes many things but the big two are that it is what she needs to open the door for you to sex or a relationship and it forces her to put her cards on the table - Women use words to trick you into thinking you have a chance with them so you will continue investing in them, but when you force them to take ACTION, this is something they can't hide. A girl who is not sexually interested in you will not accept your sexual escalations and will push you away instead. This saves you tons of time and energy.
• Never invest in a woman more than she invests in you. This is key and I could write pages on it because it covers everything - not just money or time, but level of effort, communication frequency and urgency, compliments/validation, how flexible I am, etc. If she never gives me a compliment, I never give her one either. If she doesn't initiate communication with me a reasonable portion of the time, I don't initiate communication with her. If she is slow to respond to me, I'm even slower to respond to her. If she isn't very flexible with plans, I'm even more inflexible.
• Stand up to women. Don't be afraid to disagree with them, especially if you think it will upset them. Do not back down when a woman is upset with you over a difference of opinion on something. Do not let her shame you over differing opinions. Do not change your convictions because of any criticism she gives you. Call her out if she is being rude or disrespectful. Set boundaries, warn her if/when she violates them, and if she does it again walk away and never look back. Contrary to what you might think, a woman who is angry at you over a difference of opinion that you refuse to change your mind about is 100x more likely to sleep with you than if you backed down or changed your opinion to try to smooth things over with her. Even though the latter might seem better, she actually hates that. It's not masculine. Women like men who stand up to them and stand up for their beliefs and don't accept mistreatment.
• Be dominant and lead women. Always choose the date/time/location and make the plans. Never ask if she wants to hang out, say, "We should get a drink at Le Cafe this Tuesday at 8pm". Any answer other than "I can't do Tuesday but I can do Thursday" or "I'm allergic to alcohol but could we get tea instead?" etc means "NO", and that is the END of my investment in her. She will never "come around". You are already in the friend-zone where you will stay forever. This is dominant. This is leading. Also be dominant in the bedroom.
• There must always be progression toward sex. Depending on the culture, it can be slow, but you must see the progress. Zero progression and 100% or near 100% rejection of any physical escalation on your part = she isn't into you and never will be. Don't waste time. It's up to you to determine how long you can wait - 1 date, 3 dates, or 100, but there MUST be progression from date to date.
• Confidence. Women want to date up. If you don't believe you are her equal, or above her, how could she believe it? But confidence is far more important than just how it applies to women - you need it for yourself and your own happiness. There is a lot of confidence woven into my examples above, from the way I "ask" for a date to the way I escalate physically to the way I stand up for myself and don't change my opinions out of fear of upsetting her. There is also confidence in all the cold and warm approaching I do.