The idea that rejection is nothing personal

[BeExcellent]

It does not make sense @GoodMan32 to compare yourself to others. My husband yes is tall, trim, very handsome (Christian Bale's face with blue eyes and Kid Rock's hair & style) is the best way to describe him with a lanky tall skier's build. So women regularly approach him. He's had women walk up to him at the nightclubs in the past and pick him up. Regularly & shamelessly.

And he's had no trouble getting girls & girlfriends despite his social awkwardness. He comes across arrogant and aloof because people do not expect someone so handsome to be awkward. But he does have lots of experience with women & sex because they have come after him since age 13 or so. He could probably model professionally.

So no. Dont compare to that. His difficulties become apparent when women realize he cannot be controlled, that he is rigid in his thinking & he progresses into a relationship. He will ditch a girl for being too controlling or needy or they will ditch him for being difficult. Sex you see only gets you so far.

As for not taking it personally? You cannot. As others have said it IS a numbers game and you have to treat it like any other choice. Does the waitress get upset if you decline to order an alcoholic beverage & instead drink water? No? That means she makes less on your check right? Does she take it personally? No. She moves on. She does not chase you across the restaurant trying to sell you a margarita you don't want. She doesn't care, she goes to the next customer.

That is how you must view dating & approaching women. Simple.

But you gotta get your ego out of it. You are a stranger to random women, they don't know you and you do not matter to them. Quit expecting differently.

Nobody is entitled to anything in dating or in life.

You cannot have "I am a prince" syndrome just like women cannot have "I am a princess" syndrome.

And yes you need to take honest stock of yourself to assess where you are in the market, but a good positive attitude and a thick skin & no fvcks given will get you much further than whining & woe is me.

 

[zekko]

I don't buy the boyfriend excuse. Insisting another guy sit in the same single occupancy chair as you doesn't sound like the behavior of a girl who has a boyfriend.

Or it could be that she, like many girls, likes attention, and knows how to get it. Do I approve of it? Certainly not, but there's no question those girls are out there.

If I was unwilling to get with a married woman, my body count of free partners would be lower.

A married woman who is open to cheating is probably one of the more promiscuous types of women on the planet.

 

[SW15]

A married woman who is open to cheating is probably one of the more promiscuous types of women on the planet.

There are plenty of men who will have sex with married women. Some of these are extremely thirsty unattached men and others are married men in their own lackluster marriages. I think the more common adulterous situation is a married man in a lackluster marriage having sex with a married woman in a different lackluster marriage. These people usually meet through social circles.

And yes you need to take honest stock of yourself to assess where you are in the market, but a good positive attitude and a thick skin & no fvcks given will get you much further than whining & woe is me.

Always important. The Wheat Waffles flow chart is one of the better frameworks for men in planning their dating lives.

One area where I think some men struggle is properly assessing their looks. I am not a top tier guy on looks, but I am reasonably good looking. In the Wheat Waffles flow chart, I would be a Normie and follow the Normie flow chart through some decisions.

 

[BeExcellent]

If women are not routinely opening you, throwing themselves at you or at the very least making their interest obvious (you look at her & she holds gaze and smiles back broadly)...... you are not a Chad or Chad-lite. For a Chad tier handsome man this will happen regularly and there will be no question the market deems him handsome. I'd say @Hamurabimbi is likely a guy here with that level of looks.

But he is the only one here I'd gather that about. Why? Women seek him out, much like my husband.

Any less than that level of attention from women and a man falls into the normative range. I think many men over value their facial asthetics & physical attractiveness.

Then these men get frustrated because they think they rate a 9 but are really a 6. Women tend to do this too. Look at who you ARE attracting without much effort. That is the best read to get an idea. Some chick thinks you are attractive....

 

[GoodMan32]

You’re losing me a bit with this. So you’re saying your OP was more about social circle approaches? Co-workers? What? In some ways these are tougher approaches under certain circumstances.

Regardless, it actually changes nothing about what I said. Part of your issue is you’re constantly looking for excuses for your own failures with women and post about it nonstop. You need a new mindset that isn’t so negative. Until you get one, you will continue to struggle. You probably DO need to change what you’re doing - but couching it based upon striking out with a woman is not the way to go. Even if you’re doing well, you are going to have misses. Sometimes many of them.

Since it's to be expected the vast majority of men will have a low success rate with daygame cold approaches, I'm not really talking about daygame cold approaches, no.

I'm talking more about gals you met organically. They could be in your social circle, friends-of-friends, classmates, neighbors, service workers at businesses you frequent, coworkers, etc.

Even if we take tech methods and cold approaches (both of which are dealing with total strangers) out of the equation, I've been unwanted the vast majority of the time I've expressed interest in a gal I already knew.

 

[GoodMan32]

It does not make sense @GoodMan32 to compare yourself to others. My husband yes is tall, trim, very handsome (Christian Bale's face with blue eyes and Kid Rock's hair & style) is the best way to describe him with a lanky tall skier's build. So women regularly approach him. He's had women walk up to him at the nightclubs in the past and pick him up. Regularly & shamelessly.

And he's had no trouble getting girls & girlfriends despite his social awkwardness. He comes across arrogant and aloof because people do not expect someone so handsome to be awkward. But he does have lots of experience with women & sex because they have come after him since age 13 or so. He could probably model professionally.

So no. Dont compare to that. His difficulties become apparent when women realize he cannot be controlled, that he is rigid in his thinking & he progresses into a relationship. He will ditch a girl for being too controlling or needy or they will ditch him for being difficult. Sex you see only gets you so far.

As for not taking it personally? You cannot. As others have said it IS a numbers game and you have to treat it like any other choice. Does the waitress get upset if you decline to order an alcoholic beverage & instead drink water? No? That means she makes less on your check right? Does she take it personally? No. She moves on. She does not chase you across the restaurant trying to sell you a margarita you don't want. She doesn't care, she goes to the next customer.

That is how you must view dating & approaching women. Simple.

But you gotta get your ego out of it. You are a stranger to random women, they don't know you and you do not matter to them. Quit expecting differently.

Nobody is entitled to anything in dating or in life.

You cannot have "I am a prince" syndrome just like women cannot have "I am a princess" syndrome.

And yes you need to take honest stock of yourself to assess where you are in the market, but a good positive attitude and a thick skin & no fvcks given will get you much further than whining & woe is me.

The waitress example is totally different. By refusing to order alcohol, you're not implying there's anything wrong with her. In no way is that comparable to a romantic rejection.

I've worked sales jobs before. I didn't give a damn about crossing paths with a customer who turned down an add-on I tried to sell.

On the other hand, I cannot put myself in the position ever again of crossing paths with a gal I got turned down by (I've experienced it enough times to know how much it sucks). If that means I never get free sex again (because I can't make a move on a woman I already know, as I can't risk having to cross paths with her after a possible rejection), so be it.

You said I mean nothing to a random woman (and you're right). So let's focus on the ones I already know. As I mentioned to the last poster, even the ones who have already known me have turned me down the vast majority of the time.

Even though I haven't had as much luck as your husband, I'm like him in the sense that I've had my fair share of struggling to keep a partner (because of my rigidity and difficulty)

Lastly, in addition to the obvious approaches in night clubs, I recall you saying there have been less obvious approaches (while you were right there next to him) that he didn't even pick up on (because of his autism). There have probably been similar approaches made on me that I failed to pick up on.

 

[Barrister]

Since it's to be expected the vast majority of men will have a low success rate with daygame cold approaches, I'm not really talking about daygame cold approaches, no.

I'm talking more about gals you met organically. They could be in your social circle, friends-of-friends, classmates, neighbors, service workers at businesses you frequent, coworkers, etc.

Even if we take tech methods and cold approaches (both of which are dealing with total strangers) out of the equation, I've been unwanted the vast majority of the time I've expressed interest in a gal I already knew.

So you're referring to social circle or some ancillary type people to your social circle. This is a tough market many times because you already know these women and they have categorized you a certain way in their brains that does not equal sex. That’s not to say that one of them may not be interested once you’re available (have had this happen before with chicks when I’ve come out of an LTR), but most women aren’t going to suddenly be wet about you just because they’ve known you for a year and you suddenly ask them out for a drink. Quite the opposite- it would probably be jarring to how they perceive you and that you’re now coming at them from an entirely different perspective.

Again - my original point still stands. You can’t let this affect you the way you are.

 

[BadBoy89]

As long a man takes care of himself, acts masculine, puts his best foot forward, anything after that is gravy.

As they say in sports, you have to leave it all on the court If you don’t, you will upset at yourself. If you do, she says “yes’ -> gravy. If you don’t, so says no -> still gravy because you gave it your all.

Where it does not get gravy is when a man doesn’t give it his all in his presentation and expects her to say yes. That breeds entitlement issues, which I am getting a lot of in this thread.

 

[GoodMan32]

There are plenty of men who will have sex with married women. Some of these are extremely thirsty unattached men and others are married men in their own lackluster marriages. I think the more common adulterous situation is a married man in a lackluster marriage having sex with a married woman in a different lackluster marriage. These people usually meet through social circles.



Always important. The Wheat Waffles flow chart is one of the better frameworks for men in planning their dating lives.

One area where I think some men struggle is properly assessing their looks. I am not a top tier guy on looks, but I am reasonably good looking. In the Wheat Waffles flow chart, I would be a Normie and follow the Normie flow chart through some decisions.

With how many married gals there were on Craigslist (back when Craigslist let you advertise sex), a married woman having sex with an unattached guy is probably more common than you're giving it credit for.

As for Wheat Waffles, his flow chart tells me I should give up.

I refuse to give up. I don't trust Wheat Waffles anyway. Wheat Waffles purposely underrates men so he can then try to upsell the guy into paying extra to hear more detailed feedback of how to improve.

If women are not routinely opening you, throwing themselves at you or at the very least making their interest obvious (you look at her & she holds gaze and smiles back broadly)...... you are not a Chad or Chad-lite. For a Chad tier handsome man this will happen regularly and there will be no question the market deems him handsome. I'd say @Hamurabimbi is likely a guy here with that level of looks.

But he is the only one here I'd gather that about. Why? Women seek him out, much like my husband.

Any less than that level of attention from women and a man falls into the normative range. I think many men over value their facial asthetics & physical attractiveness.

Then these men get frustrated because they think they rate a 9 but are really a 6. Women tend to do this too. Look at who you ARE attracting without much effort. That is the best read to get an idea. Some chick thinks you are attractive....

I don't claim to be a Chad (9-10) or Chad-lite (8).

I remain adamant I'm a 6-7 though. Even if that's not good enough to get as much attention as a Chad does, I'd (in a just society) get 6's and 7's. And no, that's not me being entitled.

You know who's entitled? The female 6's and 7's who insist on going for male 9's and 10's.

I don't get why it's totally socially acceptable for a woman to insist on getting with men out of her league, yet a man gets called entitled simply for wanting a looksmatch.

Asking an autist to assess who he attracts with ease is a faulty question (as we fail to pick up on a woman's clues). One thing I can say though: I'd rate the last woman I had free sex with an 8.

It's not that I've never been with an attractive free woman. I have. Just not with any reliable continuity.

 

[GoodMan32]

So you're referring to social circle or some ancillary type people to your social circle. This is a tough market many times because you already know these women and they have categorized you a certain way in their brains that does not equal sex. That’s not to say that one of them may not be interested once you’re available (have had this happen before with chicks when I’ve come out of an LTR), but most women aren’t going to suddenly be wet about you just because they’ve known you for a year and you suddenly ask them out for a drink. Quite the opposite- it would probably be jarring to how they perceive you and that you’re now coming at them from an entirely different perspective.

Again - my original point still stands. You can’t let this affect you the way you are.

In middle school/high school/college (where a lot of my rejections come from), it's quite common for couples to meet organically through school.

 

[SW15]

you're referring to social circle or some ancillary type people to your social circle. This is a tough market many times because you already know these women and they have categorized you a certain way in their brains that does not equal sex. That’s not to say that one of them may not be interested once you’re available (have had this happen before with chicks when I’ve come out of an LTR)

Social circle people/ancillary type people to a social circle are the types of women who are more likely to give a mid-tier man a more thorough evaluation. Whereas a woman from a stranger approach in real life is not likely to give a typical man more than 30-60 seconds of evaluation, a woman who shares some pre-existing connection will often hear him out for multiple minutes when they first interact. They might even have a first date where he gets a 1-3 hour evaluation on the basis of that shared, pre-existing connection.

Sometimes getting that extended interaction at first is all a man will need to be able to break through. It's very difficult to capture that attention at first and get that extended 1-3 hour first date type get together.

Additionally, a woman's mindset entering a first date with someone with a pre-existing connection is different than her mindset entering a first date with an app swiped guy or a guy who randomly approached her in real life.

Some men who are in an LTR when they meet social circle/ancillary people who end up going through a breakup/divorce can be successful asking out some acquaintances on dates. Sometimes the acquaintances come to them. One of my divorced cousins had women from his expansive circle indicate interest in him once they heard that his now ex-wife filed for divorce from him. That cousin was able to start another exclusive LTR during the 4-5 month period between the divorce filing and the divorce finalization. It came from a social circle introduction, but not a pre-existing social circle connection. They had never interacted during the era in which he was married. He had some options from women who knew him during that marriage I'm referencing.

most women aren’t going to suddenly be wet about you just because they’ve known you for a year and you suddenly ask them out for a drink. Quite the opposite- it would probably be jarring to how they perceive you and that you’re now coming at them from an entirely different perspective.

This is generally true. An initial spark with someone from a social circle/ancillary connection must be acted upon fast.

As long a man takes care of himself, acts masculine, puts his best foot forward, anything after that is gravy.

As they say in sports, you have to leave it all on the court If you don’t, you will upset at yourself. If you do, she says “yes’ -> gravy. If you don’t, so says no -> still gravy because you gave it your all.

I disagree. It is not gravy when you give it your all and end up with a rejection. It's painful emotionally, even when the woman is personable/polite about the rejection.

Too much rejection can affect the psychological well being of a man wishing to pursue sexual interactions with women.

It's like putting your hand on a wood burning stove/kitchen stove. If you burn your hand on the wood burning stove/kitchen stove, you will learn that is unpleasant and not to do that. If a man experiences too much rejection from his swipe app interaction and interactions with strangers in real life, he will learn it is unpleasant to do that and he won't do it.

 

[GoodMan32]

Social circle people/ancillary type people to a social circle are the types of women who are more likely to give a mid-tier man a more thorough evaluation. Whereas a woman from a stranger approach in real life is not likely to give a typical man more than 30-60 seconds of evaluation, a woman who shares some pre-existing connection will often hear him out for multiple minutes when they first interact. They might even have a first date where he gets a 1-3 hour evaluation on the basis of that shared, pre-existing connection.

Sometimes getting that extended interaction at first is all a man will need to be able to break through. It's very difficult to capture that attention at first and get that extended 1-3 hour first date type get together.

Additionally, a woman's mindset entering a first date with someone with a pre-existing connection is different than her mindset entering a first date with an app swiped guy or a guy who randomly approached her in real life.

Some men who are in an LTR when they meet social circle/ancillary people who end up going through a breakup/divorce can be successful asking out some acquaintances on dates. Sometimes the acquaintances come to them. One of my divorced cousins had women from his expansive circle indicate interest in him once they heard that his now ex-wife filed for divorce from him. That cousin was able to start another exclusive LTR during the 4-5 month period between the divorce filing and the divorce finalization. It came from a social circle introduction, but not a pre-existing social circle connection. They had never interacted during the era in which he was married. He had some options from women who knew him during that marriage I'm referencing.



This is generally true. An initial spark with someone from a social circle/ancillary connection must be acted upon fast.

There are a number of now-married couples I went to high school with who knew each other in high school, yet never ended up becoming an item until well after high school.

 

[SW15]

I cannot put myself in the position ever again of crossing paths with a gal I got turned down by (I've experienced it enough times to know how much it sucks). If that means I never get free sex again (because I can't make a move on a woman I already know, as I can't risk having to cross paths with her after a possible rejection), so be it.

That generally doesn't happen with app swiping and approaching strangers in the real world in bigger cities. The individual approaching male needs to take some precautions with this (not crapping his own backyard) but he won't have to go too far out of his way to prevent this from happening.

The most common way this has happened for me is that I have had to interact with some females at my gym after a rejection. What happened was that I approached them on the general gym floor or a class at my gym, they said no, and I would have to see them at the gym again. I have remained at that gym and all of them ended up changing gyms. Those interactions were not pleasant.

I have seen a woman occasionally after a failed first date. I recall seeing one woman in public after we had failed bar first date. I had met that woman at a grocery store. I recall another time randomly seeing a woman in public after a failed app arranged first date.

Everything I've described in these posts are a small percentage of my overall interactions with women.

If women are not routinely opening you, throwing themselves at you or at the very least making their interest obvious (you look at her & she holds gaze and smiles back broadly)...... you are not a Chad or Chad-lite. For a Chad tier handsome man this will happen regularly and there will be no question the market deems him handsome. I'd say @Hamurabimbi is likely a guy here with that level of looks.

Only top tier men will get approached by women, but will get plenty of indicators of interest (IOIs) from women. It usually takes man being an 8.5 in looks to get approached. His IOIs will be regular. A guy in the 7-8.4 range will get more IOIs and have easier approaches, especially the 7.5-8.4 range looks men.

Men in the 5-6.9 range will never approached and will get far less frequent IOIs. The high 6s will get the most IOIs but their IOIs will not be that common.

 

[BeExcellent]

The point waitress example absolutely is valid. In the dating environment YOU are the product as well as the salesperson. And you cannot take rejection personally.

 

[Hamurabimbi]

I've seen the idea bounced around on the internet that it's nothing personal when a woman rejects a guy.

That's the biggest bull$hit ever.

Are there some instances where a woman's rejection of a guy is nothing personal? Absolutely.

There are many instances, however, where the rejection is personal. Many times, a rejection happens because of something the guy said or did (and the rejection wouldn't have happened if he didn't say/do whatever thing drove her to reject him). It's been discussed in length on the forum about how all it takes to get rejected (or to make the woman quickly lose interest) is for the guy to say/do even one thing that gives her the ick factor.

Now for some examples of a rejection that isn't personal: If a woman rejects a guy for his looks, height, ethnicity, etc.

If she's not into your looks, height, or ethnicity, there is absolutely nothing you can say or do to make her want to be with you (except maybe becoming extremely wealthy)

As for me, I'd much rather get rejected for my looks, height, or ethnicity than get rejected for saying or doing the "wrong" thing. At least with a looks/height/ethnic rejection, it doesn't mean the woman thinks there's anything flawed with me personally. Alas though, I'd venture to guess way more of my rejections (as well as instances where the woman quickly loses interest) have been of the personal variety.

Most women are already in a relationship.

 

[GoodMan32]

That generally doesn't happen with app swiping and approaching strangers in the real world in bigger cities. The individual approaching male needs to take some precautions with this (not crapping his own backyard) but he won't have to go too far out of his way to prevent this from happening.

The most common way this has happened for me is that I have had to interact with some females at my gym after a rejection. What happened was that I approached them on the general gym floor or a class at my gym, they said no, and I would have to see them at the gym again. I have remained at that gym and all of them ended up changing gyms. Those interactions were not pleasant.

I have seen a woman occasionally after a failed first date. I recall seeing one woman in public after we had failed bar first date. I had met that woman at a grocery store. I recall another time randomly seeing a woman in public after a failed app arranged first date.

Everything I've described in these posts are a small percentage of my overall interactions with women.



Only top tier men will get approached by women, but will get plenty of indicators of interest (IOIs) from women. It usually takes man being an 8.5 in looks to get approached. His IOIs will be regular. A guy in the 7-8.4 range will get more IOIs and have easier approaches, especially the 7.5-8.4 range looks men.

Men in the 5-6.9 range will never approached and will get far less frequent IOIs. The high 6s will get the most IOIs but their IOIs will not be that common.

Right, I'm aware that apps and cold approaches in a big city are unlikely to lead to running into her after a possible rejection.

The problem is: For an autist like me, the type of woman I statistically have the best chance with long-term is a woman who already knows me, is aware of my quirks (even if she doesn't officially know I'm an autist), yet is ok with my quirks.

A woman I meet on an app or through a cold approach, even if I initially get a date or sex from her, will likely grow tired of my quirks upon getting to know me better.

It sucks how the type of woman I statistically have the best chance with long-term is off limits (because I can't risk potentially getting turned down by a woman I already know). When I say "statistically have the best chance," all that means is I'm less likely to get rejected. It doesn't mean I definitely won't get rejected.

I've been approached before (even if the approachers were nothing special in terms of looks). I got a date when I was 26 from getting approached. I got free sex when I was 23 from getting approached.

 

[GoodMan32]

The point waitress example absolutely is valid. In the dating environment YOU are the product as well as the salesperson. And you cannot take rejection personally.

In sales jobs I've had before, I was only there for a paycheck. I had no personal interest in the product (and I didn't even get any extra money for selling the product; all that would happen if I sold the product was the CEO would get wealthier...and the store manager would get a fatter bonus)

When I'm selling myself (asking a woman out), on the other hand, I am the product (per your own admission). So yeah, it's personal if I get rejected.

It's hard not to take it personally when it happens the vast majority of the time (something a beautiful woman like you would never understand)

 

[CornbreadFed]

The reality is our confidence is fragile and should be protected when necessary. Yes, we need to have learning lessons, but those are from rejections that we can learn from. The goal is to shield yourself from pointless rejections that come from you being stubborn/lazy and focus on the areas that you are good at. If a man has faced a certain number of rejections, then his confidence level will be permanently damaged and beyond repair. For example, I could become rich and grow 5 inches tomorrow, but I am still going to have approach anxiety when it comes to approaching preppy white & Asian women because they have historically been the worse to me. However, I have zero issues approaching a Latina because they have always been easy for me. Men with permanent confidence damage are easy to spot and it is a pretty difficult thing to work around.

 

[SW15]

The problem is: For an autist like me, the type of woman I statistically have the best chance with long-term is a woman who already knows me, is aware of my quirks (even if she doesn't officially know I'm an autist), yet is ok with my quirks.

A woman I meet on an app or through a cold approach, even if I initially get a date or sex from her, will likely grow tired of my quirks upon getting to know me better.

There's a flaw in this thinking.

Someone who is aware of your quirks yet is ok with my quirks is someone already in the friend zone/acquaintance zone with you. It's very difficult as a man to move from a known friend/acquaintance to a sexual relationship of some kind. This is not specific to autists either. Plenty of neurotypicals have this issue.

With your friends/acquaintances, your best play is seeing if you could get introductions to their single friends with recommendations.

The reality is our confidence is fragile and should be protected when necessary. Yes, we need to have learning lessons, but those are from rejections that we can learn from. The goal is to shield yourself from pointless rejections that come from you being stubborn/lazy and focus on the areas that you are good at. If a man has faced a certain number of rejections, then his confidence level will be permanently damaged and beyond repair.

Men with permanent confidence damage are easy to spot and it is a pretty difficult thing to work around.

I agree with this. If a man takes too many rejections without successes, it is likely that his confidence level will be damaged significantly. The repair on that will be quite difficult.

This is part of why I am willing to take some soft no's on my approaches and not push harder and increase the number of hard no's I get.

 

[JacquesMemoirs]

Nah I’ve rejected hot women before if they annoy me. Or honestly just because she is attractive doesn’t mean you’re a good match. Or sometimes I am just tired or not picking up her signals fast enough and just rather be alone.

Sometimes I think the truth about a lot of unlucky guys is they actually just want to be alone. In their heads they constantly think they want to get laid and feel good from sex with a women, but a lot of them just prefer going home alone. It’s easier.

Because women will reject men every step along the way of knowing her, it’s not just upon meeting her when you first express interest. She will mess with dudes during every stage of the game and wear a guy down with her nonsense if she wants to.

But personally I am selective. Some women (even if they espouse beauty traits) some are not my style. I’m often put off by tattoos and revealing clothes make her act too intense and full of herself. I will go for a bookworm woman dressed conservatively before a Las Vegas stripper on meth even if she is perfectly slim. I look for compatibility and health too.