The End of Masculinity

wetheliving

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The End of Masculinity

Masculinity as we used to define it is on its way out. Is this a bad thing or perhaps not at all?

Let’s look at the origins of this process, I will explain things as simple as possible.

Masculinity or “men being real men” has its roots in female dependency on males, which has always been physical. Men were stronger and bigger. In every day life when it came to building things, hunting things or fighting things, physical strenght mattered and men were stronger than women, thus making women dependant on men. Especially when a woman becomes pregnant she is highly vulnerable physically and need others around her to survive, men have never had this problem which is perhaps the reason why women are more socially oriented and men more solitary in comparison.

We can say that by nature, women need men to survive, because of the women’s physical vulnerability. Now if someone is dependant on someone, they are usually submisive towards the independent party, which is more likely to be dominant. This explains a woman’s natural submissiveness towards a man.

When did this all change?

Since the middles ages up until now, we have seen human society move towards urbanisation, industrialisation and globalisation. We have seen the industrial revolution, the invention of electricity, firearms, cars, aeroplanes and the rise of the service industry take place.

With these developments has also come the rise of the nanny state, where the government has ensured that people become less and less self-reliant (need help?, call this number!). This process has in fact rendered the physical obsolete, merely to function as a form of entertainment (sports). Who needs a good shape if you can drive to everywhere? Who needs to be able to defend themselves if you can call the cops? Don’t built a house, buy one that’s already built!

Of course this process has made women less dependant of men and has subsequently led to the rise of feminism and to the downfall of masculinity.

Surely we can discuss the intellectual superiority of males in comparison to females, if there is one, but the fact is that is completely irrelevant since you don’t need to posses brilliant logic for most jobs in todays society, so that isn’t an issue that makes women dependant on men. So the physical superiority of men having become irrelevant, it’s natural that women have become less submissive towards men.

So what’s the problem?

Women having top functions, starting businesses is of course not in itself a problem, in fact it has shown us that certain women are in fact better at certain things than most men. The problems lies more within the realms of interpersonal relationships between men and women. Once upon a time when women were dependent on men, society was not so career oriented and individualistic as nowadays, family was more important and so was the obligation of people to fill certain social roles.

People didn’t care that much about the deeper inner workings of a person and people in fact married often for practical reasons. Families had a big say in these marriages (think arranged marriages)and ones own feelings towards something were not that highly regarded, in contrast to now, where emotions are considered to be the end all and be all, just ask Oprah or Dr.Phil.

Anywho, people were raised more to fill a certain social role as said before, which meant your professional as well as private role. Private role meant being a man or woman. A man had a certain protocol to follow, certain ways in which to behave as did women. Happy marriages came forth out of compatability, practically that is: The man does the man’s part of the deal, the woman, the woman’s part of the deal.

This expectation of being a lady or a gentlemen, in fact challenged people to live up to certain images, afterall it was a man responsibilty to be a good husband and take care of his wife and provide for her, just as a woman had her responsibilities. Herein lies one of the keys, the pressure on people actually challenged them, as everyone must know giving someone responsibility and challenging gets the best out of people and it was in fact this that helped especially the men to be the best they could be through the loving support of a lady and the upbringing emphasizing his responsibilities towards society and his wife.

The individualistic society of these days puts less emphasis on family or society’s expectations or social roles and more emphasis on personal freedom to do whatever you want.

So the key developments of the last centuries have, at least in the west, erased the importance of physical strength and also promoted individualism for both sexes, which has led to a disregard for traditional social roles and the emancipation of women. Unfortunately, but logically this has also led to a decrease of respect for men, this blatantly becoming apparent in the media in recent years, making succesful relationships more and more rare.

I could go into the downside of this and dive more deeply into the subject if people are interested, so if people respond we could get a nice discussion going, at least let me know what you think.
 

WestCoaster

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Actually you lost me on the first sentence in that masculinity's roots in female dependency.

Actually, masculinity's roots are in a chemical called testosterone. Plain and simple, it's biology, it's what makes men more aggressive.

Some of your points are valid, but as I look out the window at some big buildings, I know that they wouldn't be built if masculinty was out the window. Are there really 100's of women construction workers who could put these buildings up?

The answer of course is no. Masculinity stays. Buildings still need to be built, cars made, roads paved, construction done. Real men aren't going anywhere. The only place where men are passe is in today's Hollywood culture, which also wouldn't have its office buildings if MEN didn't build them.
 

al77

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Originally posted by wetheliving

Masculinity or “men being real men” has its roots in female dependency on males, which has always been physical. Men were stronger and bigger. In every day life when it came to building things, hunting things or fighting things, physical strenght mattered and men were stronger than women, thus making women dependant on men.

Especially when a woman becomes pregnant she is highly vulnerable physically and need others around her to survive, men have never had this problem which is perhaps the reason why women are more socially oriented and men more solitary in comparison.

When did this all change?

Since the middles ages up until now, we have seen human society move towards urbanisation, industrialisation and globalisation. We have seen the industrial revolution, the invention of electricity, firearms, cars, aeroplanes and the rise of the service industry take place.

Surely we can discuss the intellectual superiority of males in comparison to females, if there is one, but the fact is that is completely irrelevant since you don’t need to posses brilliant logic for most jobs in todays society, so that isn’t an issue that makes women dependant on men. So the physical superiority of men having become irrelevant, it’s natural that women have become less submissive towards men.

The problems lies more within the realms of interpersonal relationships between men and women. Once upon a time when women were dependent on men, society was not so career oriented and individualistic as nowadays, family was more important and so was the obligation of people to fill certain social roles.

Nice defined problem. But the roots of it is not in the strength. And I don't think testosterone matters much here. While what you said is true, it is not the biggest issue.
If the job that require little strength is the issue, then how would you explain the situation in other countries (Eastern Europe, most Asian countris, Arabic world) where women still are women and not a "career in the skirt"?

What we experience now is cultural change, while other countries have seen very little of it. They keep their culture and they keep their women as women not as some weirdos who look for a career only. The problem in North America is that men allowed women to get good jobs. They figured out if they outsource jobs to Asia anyway, why not to allow local women to work and earn lots of money?

So what is the driving force here? Greed!

Some guys who already own the country figured out they will get more by allowing women to get ANY jobs. Greed of large businesses and politicians leads to making people more mobile, more divorce prone and letting women compete with men.
Those guys branwashed public, i.e. women "You have to get a career, girl, it is so cool! Look, Cosmo talks about it!"
This is a realy problem when somebody who already makes a couple of million a year want to make another 0.01 million. In order to do so he is willing to brainwash people that "divorce is fine", "sleeping around is fine" (Have you seen Sex and the City?"), "Getting a career is the best thing for a woman".
These all leads to the situation when women see men as something they do not want\need in their life. But some top guys can now peacefully make more $$.
What a great business culture!
 

Tazman

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Yet it seems that "masculinity" is what wins them over. Try being any other way and you'll most likely fail.
 

A-Unit

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Re:

What you speak of are "Institutions" and "Social Contexts", the relationships BETWEEN men and WOMEN. This is not a reality in the sense of men -changing- or of women desiring a new role of men in society, only that WOMEN now have more -freedom- personally than they had before.

Masculinity, which is maleness, isn't dead. But instead of the absolutes society ONCE had, it seems to be put out there that ALL forms can exist and function. We are TRYING to provide the atmosphere and foster this attitude, by allowing gay marriage, gay adoption, the acceptance of alternative lifestyles and so forth.

The Hardest thing to know about life is that it's a collection of realities and beliefs, from which stem ALL action.

If Heaven and Hell are REAL places, and Jesus is in fact REAL, too, then gays are bad and the US is doomed.

If Heaven and Hell are FAKE, then the US is right and we're a very progressive nation.

Who can tell?

Who can tell that such things about the Gov. are true?

Solidify your own reality. If you want to be the 1 wearing the pants, do it.

Those that bytch about HOW life is, is powerless at even controlling their own.

People might say "You're a Nihilist." Or if you stand for nothing, you fall for everything. But that isn't true. What you cling to and hook yourself to, you're sunk in and controlled BY.

------------------------

MEN are MASCULINE. Therefore, only a MAN can demonstrate masculinity. But men are made to feel bad about masculinity. That testosterone is OUT OF CONTROL, and the widespread abuse of roids has added to the fire.

Sexes have pieces of BOTH, because the hormone itself EMBODIES pieces of the sex. Men are dubbed masculine, because they possess more testosterone than estrogen. One could also say a woman is acting masculine by being STRONG, independent, and driven. That's a PIECE of her testosterone displaying itself.

A man crying, or being excessively sensitive would be exhibiting FEMININE qualities. Especially when drunk.

It's like POSITIVE and NEGATIVE.

You're APPEALING to that opposite chemical in them. So if a woman is 80 or 90% estrogen and 10% testosterone, it's your +, or testosterone that appeals to her estrogen. It's not that mathematically hard. In terms of execution and real world roles and interaction, men and women are more complex. They play cat and mouse games, talk, argue, fight, pull, push, and so forth. All different traits of the masculine or feminine reality.

---------------------------

The next problem is: SOME men accept willingly, the reality women bring. They figure "this is how it is." Read across the boards. Why would such a topic of Masculinity being dead be brought up if they weren't TAKING someone elses reality or perspective?

Socially, thing have changed, sure. It doesn't mean a man can't operate the SAME within that context, though. And that's why men struggle.

The world we live in impacts people, but it doesn't have to TOTALLY impact you. Sure, male-female dynamics have changed, they've broadened, they've evolved, but we mustn't ACCEPT them and not make our own world individually.

----------------------------

The biggest problem I see is the *princess* problem, where women are elevated to the point of ego infatuation. You watch MTV. Read the books or magazines. See how universities gear their advertisements and recruiting. You see TV shows. Where women are felt to be NOT cared for properly, where they deserve WONDERFUL treatment just because she's a woman, and how the prince charming man exists. How true love exists. How the perfect man exists.

It isn't like that. It isn't a fairy tale. And if it is, then it PRESUPPOSES the fact men get the CINDERELLA or PERFECT QUEEN. Who's pure. Demure. Lovely. Feminine.

Bottom line, there's dozens of women, who are products of varying backgrounds, in which a man can STILL construct the reality he desires, but he must lay aside his ego, foresake the fake world that plays out before him, and follow his own heart and mind.




A-Unit
 

wetheliving

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Of course masculinity is rooted in testosterone, but do you think our biological make up just appeared out of thin air? The point I’m trying to make here is that our biological nature is influenced by our social circumstances in which we live in and capable of changing, it’s called evolution.

Human beings have less hair and more intelligence than primates, because we’ve evolved into that, we may just involve into something else in the future. It’s possible testosterone levels in males will drop and will rise in women, then traditional male/female roles could alter as we are possibly witnessing already in todays society.

Al77
You think greedy people are behind it all and have indoctrinated women in such a way that they changed their behaviour? It may be possible, but I find it interesting to find out that as physical superiority of males became more and more irrelevant, feminism really took off. Quite a coincidence don’t you think?

Mightymate
It’s just the title of the thread, perhaps the end of masculinity is not the right choice of words, but read the piece, you’ll see what I mean.

Tazman
I know, that’s exactly the problem.

A-Unit
You’re absolutely right, one is always in control of their life and can change the outcome through taking action, but the inclination in society among men these days is to not take charge of their lives.
 

Rollo Tomassi

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Originally posted by wetheliving
Westcoaster
The point I’m trying to make here is that our biological nature is influenced by our social circumstances in which we live in and capable of changing, it’s called evolution.
So essentially you're suggesting that it's social constructs that modify our biologies rather than our biologies modifying our social constructs? Heheh,..
 

wetheliving

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By social circumstances I mean the environment we live in, animals are capable of adapting their biological make up and body shapes when the environment creates a necessity for this change. Unlike what darwin believed, it is very possible for this type of evolution to take place within a short period of time of for example ten years. Recent experiments have proven this.
 
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Originally posted by wetheliving
Rollo
By social circumstances I mean the environment we live in, animals are capable of adapting their biological make up and body shapes when the environment creates a necessity for this change. Unlike what darwin believed, it is very possible for this type of evolution to take place within a short period of time of for example ten years. Recent experiments have proven this.
this would make the AFCs as the byproducts :p
 
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