the economy

[ketostix]

I don't know about in the US, but I know here, where there is a very large Toyota factory in my city, the jobs are neither low paying/low benefit, but they are not unionized.

In fact I know several people that work there that love it, have good benefits, and the pay is very good. Even for basic positions people start at about 25 dollars/ hour, which i'm pretty sure is more than average.

Toyota isn't the boogy man, just a more efficient and successful company.

I'm not saying Toyota is the boogey man, I'm throwing all of the foreign companies in there. I know a japanese rival of Toyota (no need to mention the name but I can) who uses a lot of temporary workers at $6-8/hr. Some workers have suffered repetitive use injuries. If they're a more efficient and successful company, than it's not because they're not passing their cost on to someone else, whether it be their workers and/or taxpayers and less revenue in taxes and revenue in the domestic economy. You act like there are no downsides and trade offs involved. That's a common mistake consumers make.

 

[SmoothTalker]

And you act like American companies are the apex of efficiency and success and the ONLY way someone else can POSSIBLY be better is if they're cheating/ripping someone off/passing the buck, etc. That's simply not the case.

Even leaving quality aside, I would not buy an American car because I find their designs ugly and the design philosophy stupid. I mean, what the hell is up with the retro muscle car thing? Is now really the time for that?

I thought the previous dodge caravan or neon designs were decent, the new Caravan and neon replacement Caliber are just damn ugly. I'm sure not everybody agrees but quite a few people have said the same, which I know is still anecdotal but I don't think any body's done a study on it.

 

[ketostix]

And you act like American companies are the apex of efficiency and success and the ONLY way someone else can POSSIBLY be better is if they're cheating/ripping someone off/passing the buck, etc. That's simply not the case.

Yes that basically what I'm saying, except I'm saying companies doing business here would best benefit all parties involved to be American owned, and employ American citizen, making products and services. American are actually one of the most productive, skilled and education workforces contrary to what some would like you to believe.

Even leaving quality aside, I would not buy an American car because I find their designs ugly and the design philosophy stupid. I mean, what the hell is up with the retro muscle car thing? Is now really the time for that?

This is pure opinion and probably a biased one. Most people think Asian cars are bland looking. I have news for you most of the more popularly style Asian cars get their model names and styling from U.S design studios. I know you're going to say, "See imports create jobs.". No, they displace jobs, and we all ready covered that point. The you bring up the Ford Mustang. Well A lot of people are into classic muscle cars and their styling, especially Mustang buyers. Just because you're not one of them doesn't mean anything, and doesn't mean there not over a dozen of other American models that aren't retro.

And let me add a point about quality. They built the Mitsubishi Eclipse and the Plymouth Laser in the same factory, with the same parts and with the same workers. For all practical purpose they were the same car. Yet, the mitsubishi had a statically higher reliability rate, greater than the difference betwen any wholly made american made car and a japanese car. The difference in quality is totally owner and perception and not actual.

I thought the previous dodge caravan or neon designs were decent, the new Caravan and neon replacement Caliber are just damn ugly. I'm sure not everybody agrees but quite a few people have said the same, which I know is still anecdotal but I don't think any body's done a study on it.

OK this is your opinion again, but I think the new Nissan Sentra is one damn ugly boxy car and I bet a lot of other people agree, And what's up with all these Korean cars copying the styling of a Lexus or Mercedes, that's just pathetic.

 

[SmoothTalker]

Explain again how foreign car companies having design facilities in the US displaces jobs again? So now all the American companies, as well as foreign companies, are employing engineers and designers in the USA. How is that bad?

As for cars, I think we're both really getting off topic, so lets leave it at this. For people that are looking for that sort of thing, I'm sure American cars satisfy them just fine.

I am not one of those people, and I'm not speaking out of my ass. My family has owned both foreign and several American cars, and I personally just did not like the American ones for a variety of reasons. I have also driven my uncle's BMW, and while I think they may be over priced, I don't agree that they're no better.

I'm not just hating on American brands because I'm some mindless media consuming machine - if I was, I'd be driving a Civic. I mean, an Elantra isn't exactly what the media or public consider a great car. To be honest, I watch no more than an hour of tv a week, maximum.

Yes the Sentra is a bit boxy, I don't recall saying I liked Nissans. As for stealing designs, don't bother, everyone steals everyone elses designs. On top of that all cars are pretty similar, some independently designed ones will look similar anyway.

If you like American cars by all means, enjoy. I don't and therefore won't be driving one if I can help it. In terms of their economic impact, I personally know that the Toyota factory in my city has been very very good for the local economy, and none of the workers I know there sound dissatisfied. If you think they are killing the economy, don't buy from them. Moving on...

 

[Joe The Homophobe]

stop the rumours! America officially now in recession
http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSN0731799020080307?sp=true

 

[ketostix]

Explain again how foreign car companies having design facilities in the US displaces jobs again? So now all the American companies, as well as foreign companies, are employing engineers and designers in the USA. How is that bad?

OK I'll explain it again since you're unwilling to comprehend it. Foreign car companies do not create additional car market, they take a share of American car market. Just like we would do to Japan if they didn't have the good sense to exclude us from their market. American car consumers aren't saying and doing this, "If I can't get a foreign car, I'm not going to buy a car! I'll walk instead!". The market is already there. Well the only way foreign car makers could conceivably increase the US car market is by selling cars much cheaper than the currently lowest price model but this would be theoretical and insignificant on top of a bad deal anyway. Because the foreign companies take more away economically from the domestic market than the domestic automakers, they're actually decreasing the growth of the domestic car market.

So what's happening in reality is foreigners are taking a share of the market away from the domestics (and actually reducing growth here), and replacing those jobs with usually lower paying, lower benefits, high productive maybe (less jobs) jobs, and they're getting a tax break (costs shifted to the american tax payer), revenue goes to the foreign country and owners, and you might have foreign bosses (I'd prefer having American bosses, but that's just me). It's just a bad deal economically for America. That's why the foreigners are here, to do themselves the favor not us. And this is as good as it gets with the foreign cars. A lot of the Korean cars are produced abroad in lower cost labor markets. So they're even a worse deal for America.

As for cars, I think we're both really getting off topic, so lets leave it at this. For people that are looking for that sort of thing, I'm sure American cars satisfy them just fine.

But the main topic is still economics. Cars are just one example. It could be any number of the other products and services under the same pressures. There's plenty of other and maybe even better examples but someone brought up cars and it's a topic I know pretty well. If some people prefer foreign cars that's fine, but they should be educated in their purchases and not just believing things that aren't really so. And when someone makes totally erroneous claims like "foreign cars are better for America economically", that's a different matter.

I am not one of those people, and I'm not speaking out of my ass. My family has owned both foreign and several American cars, and I personally just did not like the American ones for a variety of reasons. I have also driven my uncle's BMW, and while I think they may be over priced, I don't agree that they're no better.

Well that's fine but out of the variety of reasons none of them should be erroneous ones, such as, they're better economically or BMWs are more reliable than American cars. And you should be comparing a BMW to a Cadillac or Lincoln, not to a Ford Focus or similar. Not saying you are, just saying.

I'm not just hating on American brands because I'm some mindless media consuming machine - if I was, I'd be driving a Civic. I mean, an Elantra isn't exactly what the media or public consider a great car. To be honest, I watch no more than an hour of tv a week, maximum.

OK, I'm not saying you are. All I'm saying is a Chevy Cobalt or Pontiac is very competitve with an Elantra, or sentra or whatever.

Yes the Sentra is a bit boxy, I don't recall saying I liked Nissans. As for stealing designs, don't bother, everyone steals everyone elses designs. On top of that all cars are pretty similar, some independently designed ones will look similar anyway.

Well it's a matter of degree. Many Nissan look good (styled by american stylist), but the Sentra is damn ugly. Japan copied almost every single one of our industries. And the Koreans are totally copying several makes and models of various nation's cars so closely that it's pathetic.

If you like American cars by all means, enjoy. I don't and therefore won't be driving one if I can help it.

That's fine but I don't think your reasoning for this is solid.

In terms of their economic impact, I personally know that the Toyota factory in my city has been very very good for the local economy, and none of the workers I know there sound dissatisfied. If you think they are killing the economy, don't buy from them.

[/QUOTE]

But what you aren't looking at is that could've been a GM factory in your city, with better jobs and being better for your economy. This is the whole point being repeated again.

Moving on...

Yeah let's move on to any of the many other industries being taken over by foreigners or outsourced lol. Someone else can pick up on that topic.

 

[Francisco d'Anconia]

stop the rumours! America officially now in recession
http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSN0731799020080307?sp=true

The funny thing is that it took all of this for people to realize that we were in a recession; it's almost the end of the first quarter and they're just realizing it??? The lack of spending during the holidays should have made everyone say "uh-oh" back in January.

 

[ketostix]

The funny thing is that it took all of this for people to realize that we were in a recession; it's almost the end of the first quarter and they're just realizing it??? The lack of spending during the holidays should have made everyone say "uh-oh" back in January.

I think a lot of people realized it, just some people didn't want to. Or maybe someone wasn't given the official OK for the bigwigs to announce it publically and officially til now .

 

[Francisco d'Anconia]

I think a lot of people realized it, just some people didn't want to. Or maybe someone wasn't given the official OK for the bigwigs to announce it publically and officially til now .

I love it, we needed the official "Holy Sh1t, we're in trouble now!!!" proclamation in order to start the panic huh?

 

[ketostix]

I love it, we needed the official "Holy Sh1t, we're in trouble now!!!" proclamation in order to start the panic huh?

That's what it looks like lol.

 

[SmoothTalker]

If anything, competition will motivate the big 3 to hire more and better designers so that they can produce cars people will actually buy. If nobody was challenging them, where's the pressure for innovation?

For the record, I could be wrong, but I don't ever recall claiming foreign cars were better for America economically, I was just saying they are better cars. Of course the economy would be better if we bought American cars, but when I'm looking for a $20,000 purchase that I will use for many years on a daily basis, I want the best I can buy for my money (in my opinion), not what's best for GM.

There you go again with the lower paying/lower benefit job things. Look, neither of us has real statistics on this, and I don't think either of us has worked in car manufacturing. All I am saying is from EVERYONE I've asked, the jobs are very good. In fact, do you have any proof that they're worse jobs than at the big three?

Then you go on to say that high productivity is bad because it means less jobs overall? So should we all just employ lazy, untrained labor so that it'll be so inefficient we'll have to employ everyone just to get things done? Efficiency is good. As for whether your boss is American or not, personally I don't think that should really matter. And if I recall correctly, Hyundai has design centers in California and just built a large factory somewhere in the US.. There they go, stealing jobs again! (And if you want to use the, "they are replacing great American jobs with crap ones" line, show me some proof that the big 3 employees have it so much better.)

As for Nissan only having good designs when they're made in the US (honestly, foreigners can do things right once in a while too you know?), I somehow doubt the new GT-R was designed in the US. Or is that a bad design?

My reasons may not be perfect but they are more than good enough for me, and a lot of other people judging from market trends.

Want to talk about a different industry? How about cell phones? Motorola had pretty much one good design, the Razr, which was insanely popular. But now that craze has passed and their business is going down the drain, because aside from the innovative thin shape, Motorola phones actually suck. In this case I know for a fact foreign markets allow American companies to sell there, as the Razr sold extremely well everywhere in the world. But seriously, now that that trend has passed, are you honestly going to tell me domestic cell phones are better? Japan, Korea, and much of Europe has already implemented mobile technology we haven't even heard of yet.

 

[ketostix]

If anything, competition will motivate the big 3 to hire more and better designers so that they can produce cars people will actually buy. If nobody was challenging them, where's the pressure for innovation?

I thought you were going to move on and I was going to too, but I guess not. See what you're saying "big 3 to hire more and better designers" is a fairy tale. Without competition people will buy the cars regardless, I've already mentioned that. What's going to motivate short-sighted consumers is price above all else. This what they're doing with all products. You have a point that's typically thrown around about competition. Competition is fine, but we don't need competition from foreigners and from foreign lower-wage markets, Which results in maybe getting things at a lower short term price but at a higher long-term cost. What is needed is domestic competition on a fair playing field not foreign competition. I know what your implying, that American cars weren't as good because of not enough competition. That's not really true that they weren't as good because of that, but I'm not going to get into what all was going on in with automotive industry in the 70's and 80's and on.

For the record, I could be wrong, but I don't ever recall claiming foreign cars were better for America economically, I was just saying they are better cars. Of course the economy would be better if we bought American cars, but when I'm looking for a $20,000 purchase that I will use for many years on a daily basis, I want the best I can buy for my money (in my opinion), not what's best for GM.

Well it did seem like you were claiming foreign was as good or better economically and that you still are. You say foreign cars are better and I disagree with that. But now you admit they aren't better for the American economy. Well do you really think your not going to be effected to some varying degree by the hit that foreign products does to the economy? It's at least something to consider when making such a large purchase. It's not about "what's best for GM", how about saying you're doing "what's best for Hyundai and Korea"?

There you go again with the lower paying/lower benefit job things. Look, neither of us has real statistics on this, and I don't think either of us has worked in car manufacturing. All I am saying is from EVERYONE I've asked, the jobs are very good. In fact, do you have any proof that they're worse jobs than at the big three?

I have worked some in car manufacturing and know people who do nd did, those who were UAW and worked for the Big 3 and those who have worked for a foreign maker. I'm guessing you live near a Toyota assembly plant, and while those jobs are as good as it gets in a foreign automaker, they're not as good as a job with UAW domestic. And I said before the foreign companies have a lot of less desirable postions, temporary, low pay, no benefits. It's no secret the difference in labor practices, so you can't claim no one knows the difference. Again, you're still skating over the foreign ownership issue and the taxes issue.

Then you go on to say that high productivity is bad because it means less jobs overall?

No, I'm saying productivity should be reasonable and balanced. People shouldn't suffer repetitive injury in the name of productivity, for instance. Yes high productivity does reduce jobs, and can increase profits and allow lower prices in the short term at least. But production has to match consumption in the long-term anyway. What you're not considering is if you ask for productivity as consumer you're going to eventually be required of it as a producer. Do you want to suffer repetitive injuries for productivity. I don't think so. It's kind of like the principle live by the sword, die by the sword.

So should we all just employ lazy, untrained labor so that it'll be so inefficient we'll have to employ everyone just to get things done? Efficiency is good.

That's just making an extreme example. I'm not saying be lazy blah blah. I'm saying productivity needs to be balanced. And productivity does not guarantee lower prices A foreign company is likely to just say, "eff you americans I'm taking this all in profit". I mean why would a foreigner essentially place Americans over his country?

As for whether your boss is American or not, personally I don't think that should really matter. And if I recall correctly, Hyundai has design centers in California and just built a large factory somewhere in the US.. There they go, stealing jobs again! (And if you want to use the, "they are replacing great American jobs with crap ones" line, show me some proof that the big 3 employees have it so much better.)

Well your boss not being an American may or may not be for the worse, but the inclination would be worse. It does matter who your boss is, it's a relationship so to speak, just like it materrs who you enter any relationship with is. Why are you not getting it that Hyundai doesn't really create market here, they take a share of it? You want me to dig up proof that the Big 3 pays better? It's common knowledge. Why is it anymore necessary for me to find the documents than it is for you to prove the foreign comapnies do pay as well, which is not common knowledge?

As for Nissan only having good designs when they're made in the US (honestly, foreigners can do things right once in a while too you know?), I somehow doubt the new GT-R was designed in the US. Or is that a bad design?

Now you want to pull one example out. Many stylings and model names were by US designers. When did I say Japan can't design? It was you who said you prefer the styling of foreign cars and I simply pointed out that many of them were styled in America.

My reasons may not be perfect but they are more than good enough for me, and a lot of other people judging from market trends.

Buy whatever you want. Your reasoning might be good enough for you, but that doensn't mean your reasoning is correct.

Want to talk about a different industry? How about cell phones? Motorola had pretty much one good design, the Razr, which was insanely popular. But now that craze has passed and their business is going down the drain, because aside from the innovative thin shape, Motorola phones actually suck. In this case I know for a fact foreign markets allow American companies to sell there, as the Razr sold extremely well everywhere in the world. But seriously, now that that trend has passed, are you honestly going to tell me domestic cell phones are better? Japan, Korea, and much of Europe has already implemented mobile technology we haven't even heard of yet.

You seem to have a bias against anything domestic. Japan doesn't open it's markets to us to any extent. It's funny you mentioned motorola, because I was actually thinking about getting rid of phone and getting a Motorola. They came out with a new razor and the razor 2, both of which are highly rated. And you're saying they're junk? I looked at many phones and the Motorola could pick up the best signal and had the best sound quality, with sony being a close second. But you say they're junk. This seem to be a bias.

You just seem to have this mentality that foreign products are better no matter what. There's little point in discussing it any further with you.

 

[SmoothTalker]

Lol I've owned a Razr for 3 years now. Once the novelty of how thin it is wears off, it's really an average phone at best.

I ment specifically we should stop arguing about which cars are better as neither of us will change the other's preferences. I didn't say we couldn't discuss their economic impact.

And I'm not doing what's best for Korea, I'm doing what's best for me.

Look, I live in Ontario, the automotive sector is HUGE here, we're like Canada's Detroit. But just because an industry is big, it doesn't need to be cuddled. There are Ford, Chrystler, and GM plants within 1 hour driving distance from here, and yet somehow people strive for jobs at the Toyota factory just as much as any of those 3. Why, if they're such ****?

Granted I've never lived in Japan, but you generally hear of companies taking extremely good care of their workers and employing them for life, no different from your big 3. From what I've heard they carried over the practice to North America.

Economics tells us that a company won't just decide to "keep it all as profit" in a competative market, because someone else will decide not to and steal their customers. It also tells us that competition is a good thing - why can you not understand this? Do you honestly not see how needing to put out a newer, better product before the other guys would motivate a company to higher more designers and engineers? And if those same engineers can go to a different company who is willing to pay, their current employer will pay them more or suffer brain drain.

I don't think all foreign products are superior. My computer is an HP, American if I recall, and I'm quite happy with it, and looking into getting a Dell laptop, not a Sony. I own an ipod (though I don't really think that counts. If you want an example of what's bad for the American economy, it's companies like Apple making their stuff in China. It's not companies like Honda and Toyota building their cars in the USA).

 

[bigjohnson]

.... getting a Motorola. They came out with a new razor and the razor 2, both of which are highly rated.

I work with a lot of phones in an R&D capacity and my experience is that the Samsung and Motorola are the best overall in voice quality and (cellular) radio design. The HTC and other smaller brands usually have better cutting edge PDA features per dollar but the core phone capabilities suffer.

 

[Bonhomme]

Honestly, I don't think you have any comprehension about how shockingly bad life use to be, or how bad it still is in much of the world. Even your poorest, while I would never want it, have it good by comparison.

I readily acknowledge that, SmoothTalker, get your point, and am well aware of how bad things are in places like Liberia. And you know who really made them that way? Those who brought "civilization" to them. But that's a whole different issue and story, connected though it is.

But it's still damn hard for someone who's stuck on the hamster wheel to get out, unless they're very brilliant and driven. I don't see why people in such a bountiful nation as mine should have to struggle so hard. Not all squander their money on luxuries they can't afford, not by a long shot (But, as a parenthetic note, is it not the very market-driven advertising that helps induce this senseless consumption, anyway?). I can remember very clearly when it was much easier for most working class Americans.

In the US, there is an entire "underclass" that doesn't even register in the economic statistics, which makes up a sizable % of the population. How many is hard to determine, because it's hard to count the "invisible." At least there are charity options for everybody here in the form of homeless shelters, soup kitchens, etc., so yes, it’s not as bad as 18th century France, present-day Liberia, or what not.

My point is not comparing levels of misery. I just happen to think it's inexcusable for a nation with the resources we have in the US to not guarantee everyone who wants to put forth an honest effort to do their part a comfortable, secure living. I know it's well within our means. Above and beyond that, let people have the opportunity to rise as high as their abilities take them, as long as they don't take or trash what rightfully belongs to someone (or everybody) else (which includes the environment).

********

All this talk about “being in a recession” makes me laugh.

We’re in a weird combination of hyperinflation and deflation, so the stats appear to be more-or-less balanced, and fool many people. Many things that are conveniently left out of the “inflation” statistics are inflating at astronomical rates: junk fees, late fees, surcharges, insurance premiums, to name a few. "Nickel and diming," basically. Funny that these almost uniformly involve transfer of money from poorer to richer people. Other things are deflating or not increasing, such as rates for many services. Most of these happen to put money in the pocket of the small business owner or individuals.

Economic statistics are worse than useless: they’re outright misleading, for the most part.

 

[iqqi]

This thread makes me want to stop shopping.

 

[bigjohnson]

.... But it's still damn hard for someone who's stuck on the hamster wheel to get out, unless they're very brilliant and driven. I don't see why people in such a bountiful nation as mine should have to struggle so hard. .....

Why not struggle? Life has never been easy, STFU and lean your shoulder into it.

 

[ketostix]

I work with a lot of phones in an R&D capacity and my experience is that the Samsung and Motorola are the best overall in voice quality and (cellular) radio design. The HTC and other smaller brands usually have better cutting edge PDA features per dollar but the core phone capabilities suffer.

Yeah, I tried out several phones. I'm not a big fan of the Razr's shape, but it did have the best signal and sound. It just seems like smoothtalker is comparing his old RAZR to newer phones when Motorola came out with a new Razr and a Razr2, both of which are highly rated. The Sony's seeemed to be a close second. I use to like Samsung but not anymore, but if you say they're good I won't disagree. I really like the Razr2, it's not so wide and has a different kypad, but it's a little overpriced.

 

[bigjohnson]

Yeah, I tried out several phones. I'm not a big fan of the Razr's shape, but it did have the best signal and sound. It just seems like smoothtalker is comparing his old RAZR to newer phones when Motorola came out with a new Razr and a Razr2, both of which are highly rated. The Sony's seeemed to be a close second. I use to like Samsung but not anymore, but if you say they're good I won't disagree. I really like the Razr2, it's not so wide and has a different kypad, but it's a little overpriced.

The Samsung phones that run Windows Mobile are pretty nice for the so called "smartphone" segment of the market, I particularly like the BlackJack. I also had a RAZR and it was a decent phone, didn't like the GUI but as a basic phone it was good, very nice speakerphone for the size and excellent battery life.

 

[SmoothTalker]

I actually don't have the original razr, it's not the new one but it's one of the updated versions of the first one. The sound quality is pretty good, and the shape is cool in my opinion (or was at least before EVERYONE got one), but I think bigjohnson hit what bugs me the most about them. It's the interface. My previous phones by different companies just seemed so much more.. I don't know, user friendly, refined, thought out, etc.

Also for some dumb reason it only lets me record about 12 seconds per video and only 50 text messages, when there are massive amounts of unused storage space.