the economy

[SmoothTalker]

Bonhomme, read up on the living conditions of a French peasant before the French Revolution. Compared with the insane, UNEARNED, unimaginable wealth of the aristocracy, there was a gap probably 50 times over what we have today between the rich and the poor.

Hell, translating historical figures wealth into modern dollars, Gates and Buffet aren't even that rich. I've heard esimates for Henry Ford's wealth in the 200 billion + range, not to mention the Rockafellers, Vanderbilts, etc.

By comparison to revolutionary France, even the worst ghetto in America isn't that badly off, and lets face it, only a small portion of the population, not the vast masses, is that poor. So no, there's not going to be any violent uprising against the rich..

And poonani, you go and enjoy your union while it lasts. Do you know what a union actually is? It's a monopoly on labour, yep, the same kind everyone *****es about. Not to mention for companies providing public services, strikes are bordering on terrorist action, but even still, unions REDUCE the number of jobs available and only protect those that are already set. On top of that, I don't think your contract can protect you when the company goes under.

And you've outlined my exact point from before when you mentioned that you can finish working, then go home and forget about it. Well good for you, but if somebody takes on a lot more responsibility, puts in more hours, and stresses himself out about his career/business, why the hell does he not deserve more?

 

[Francisco d'Anconia]

...And you've outlined my exact point from before when you mentioned that you can finish working, then go home and forget about it. Well good for you, but if somebody takes on a lot more responsibility, puts in more hours, and stresses himself out about his career/business, why the hell does he not deserve more?

:yes: Even though he may deserve it, heaven forbid he gets it because he's penalized for it, even before he sees it. And people call this fair. We claim to be the greatest country in the world and yet the majority of the people belive that the more financially successful a person may be, the more he should pay for his hard work. How the hell does that make any sense??!!

 

[Bonhomme]

Bonhomme, read up on the living conditions of a French peasant before the French Revolution. Compared with the insane, UNEARNED, unimaginable wealth of the aristocracy, there was a gap probably 50 times over what we have today between the rich and the poor.

Hell, translating historical figures wealth into modern dollars, Gates and Buffet aren't even that rich. I've heard esimates for Henry Ford's wealth in the 200 billion + range, not to mention the Rockafellers, Vanderbilts, etc.

By comparison to revolutionary France, even the worst ghetto in America isn't that badly off, and lets face it, only a small portion of the population, not the vast masses, is that poor. So no, there's not going to be any violent uprising against the rich.

Did you read my post?

I said quite clearly we're headed in that direction. And don't kid yourself about the % of the population in the States that is "all that poor." The homeless shelters are filled to capacity, and there are many homeless who don't even stay in them. I'm sure it's much better in Canada, because you take care of your own much better, thanks in large part to public measures.

The statistics are an out-and-out sham: they have unemployment in the single digits, but that does not count most people who are actually out of work! The "unemployment" stats don't count people who did not qualify for unemployment because they did not work long enough for somebody else prior to being out of work, people whose benefits have run out, or people who are underemployed (i.e., not making enough to support themselves). Estimates put the real unemployment in the US at something like 25-30%! In my city (Detroit) it's almost 50%!

No, we haven't slid that far back yet, thanks in large part to the public measures that were instituted during the early 20th century and the New Deal. But these are systematically being eroded away. The 40 hour work week is gone. The minimum wage is not much better than the sweatshop wages of the late 19th century, adjusted for the cost of living.

The first income tax in the US in 1913 only applied to incomes over $5,000 per year! Do you know how much $5,000 was then? So the personal exemption has hardly gone up in about a century!

 

[Bonhomme]

:yes: Even though he may deserve it, heaven forbid he gets it because he's penalized for it, even before he sees it. And people call this fair. We claim to be the greatest country in the world and yet the majority of the people belive that the more financially successful a person may be, the more he should pay for his hard work. How the hell does that make any sense??!!

A flat tax on income exceeding a "living wage" makes perfect sense to me.

As I said in my prior noblesse oblige post, I consider taxation of sub-living wage income stealing people's labor.

 

[SmoothTalker]

Yes I did read your post. We're not really heading there anyway, not at any noticible rate anyway. Even if homeless shelters are at capacity, at least they even exist. Show me the estimates that say real unemployment is 25+%.

As for us taking care of our own, well I don't know about that. We have more public services like health care, but frankly they're ****. All the good doctors move south, it takes YEARS of waiting sometimes for things like MRI's which you can get in the USA in a week. Diseases aren't going to wait until it's your turn to get the scan.. That's why I don't like public health care. If you go to the emergency, unless you're literally dying, you'll be waiting for 10 hours minumum. Unless you live here, you honestly don't know how ****ty our wonderful public health care system is. More accurately the care is actually fairly good, but access to it is horrible. In your country many people can't afford to see a doctor, in mine many people simply can't get an appointment for one. And you guys would be shocked by how much tax we pay, every single year the tax rate goes up, services go down. Ontario's government even started charging a $1000+ dollar 'health care premium', while at the same time delisting a huge number of services that it use to cover so that now they're only covered by private insurance. If you guys get a president who actually goes through and establishes universal health care, prepare for a very nasty surprise.

Honestly, I don't think you have any comprehension about how shockingly bad life use to be, or how bad it still is in much of the world. Even your poorest, while I would never want it, have it good by comparison.

 

[ketostix]

Illegal inmigration taking your jobs? yeah right, they just take the jobs nobody wants: in the fields, janitors etc.

im done here.

Well of course these are jobs no one "wants" (doesn't mean they won't do them) when you bring in low wage workers to compete and drive down wages and working conditions. If they brought over 10 million IT people from India willing to work for less than $20k a year and no benefits, what American would "want" to pay for college for 4 years taking CIS just to maybe get a job like that or no job in the field.

Also these illegal and legal immigrants send dollars to their home countries and right out our economy. Not to mention tax payers have to pick up the tab for their medical and social services.

See that's the problem, if an employer wants to pay real market wages and invest in America and American's the employer will get eat alive by the other companies using outsourcing and lower wage foreign workers. And they don't even really have to lower their prices in the short-term at least to do it. And I'm not even blaming the companies for the unlevel playing field against companies employing US citizens in the US, just about everyone has a hand in this unlevel playing field.

 

[Joe The Homophobe]

The the truly intelligent engineers and developers realize this and start their own companies. Microsoft, Dell, Yahoo, MySpace, eBay, Amazon and countless other companies were created by people who felt that they could do better on their own than though the companies they worked for. Instead of wining about how bad they have it, why don't people go out do better on their own and create their own corporation and compete?

you say it like if it was so easy. Most start up businesses fail. It is a dangerous game. You don't just decide to make your own business and suddenly the world is a better place. If you are lucky you might win but most fail. Instead of complaining about how companies are outsourcing jobs and how America is headed for a great depression (while we still put the 2 party system in power who are sticking it to us and got us in this mess) we should concentrate on how to save ourselves.

Some things we can do to protect ourselves and survive the coming rough times: educating ourselves to get ahead (us younger guys with no college degree) save more/spend less and go out less, drive less/take the bus more, go from a gas guzzlin to a small gas saving car (even though it might be unmanly)

it might cut out our fun a bit to change our way of life but rough times require this. We are heading for bad times. I personally will be taking the bus to and from school this coming semester. Will only use the car for work/go out. Small steps like these save lots of money along the way.

 

[ketostix]

Did you read my post? Estimates put the real unemployment in the US at something like 25-30%! In my city (Detroit) it's almost 50%!

Foreign cars have ruined the midwest. No offense to anyone who buys them, but they're not any cheaper or any more reliable than American cars. People even the media claim Japanese cars are so much better but this is simply not true. This is just example of how people believe things that just aren't true and then try to confuse the issue.

 

[Joe The Homophobe]

Foreign cars have ruined the midwest. No offense to anyone who buys them, but they're not any cheaper or any more reliable than American cars. People even the media claim Japanese cars are so much better but this is simply not true. This is just example of how people believe things that just aren't true and then try to confuse the issue.

it doesn't help it that it seems like every month there seems to be a recall of american cars because something is wrong with a particular model. I don't know if the quality control people are at sleep at some of these companies but something is seriously wrong.

 

[Poonani Maker]

"The world is a sinking ship, Sunk by the weight of six billion people. We were sentenced to this fate, By those who preached that they all, Are as good as you and I, That they all should decide our destination, Though none of them has found a meaningful, Direction for themselves. Now everything we loved will die, Unless we get another go at steering. So here we stand, On the summit of the aft, Hurling defiance, at those who are our misfortune."

 

[ketostix]

it doesn't help it that it seems like every month there seems to be a recall of american cars because something is wrong with a particular model. I don't know if the quality control people are at sleep at some of these companies but something is seriously wrong.

Do you have proof american cars are being recalled every month, and being recalled at such a higher significant rates as foreign cars. You know I hear of some big and important recalls for foreign cars too. And you know, every foreign car dealership has a repair shop full of cars too. The biased automotive media even admits that American cars are more reliable than European cars which tend to be more expensive.

 

[SmoothTalker]

If you want to talk about what killed the midwest, it's unions. All the big three owe BILLIONS on their health plans now that their workers are getting old, and they're also overpaying their labour. There is a Toyota factory where in my city, and it's considered a very good place to work. But it's not unionized, so they're not forced to keep mediocre workers that aren't really pulling their weight.

As for American cars being equally reliable, right, whatever. My girlfriend's dad works for Chrysler, so they only drive American cars. They have three and at least one is in the shop almost constantly. And these are not old cars. I've had a Hyundai Elantra for 6 years, over 100,000 miles, and have not had a SINGLE mechanical problem yet.

It's typical to see old Civics and Corolla's for sale with 200,000 + miles still running, I can't recall the last time I saw a domestic with that many.

http://www.jdpower.com/autos/ratings/quality-ratings-by-brand

Only American cars to get passed 3/5 are Lincoln and Mercury, but that's not really a fair comparison with Honda and Toyota - you'd need to compare to Lexus for that.

 

[ketostix]

If you want to talk about what killed the midwest, it's unions. All the big three owe BILLIONS on their health plans now that their workers are getting old, and they're also overpaying their labour. There is a Toyota factory where in my city, and it's considered a very good place to work. But it's not unionized, so they're not forced to keep mediocre workers that aren't really pulling their weight.

That's laughable. The economy in Detroit was one the greatest in the world while there was still unions. And so you're saying Toyota shouldn't pay for it workers' healthcare despite their cars being expensive, but the American taxpayer should pay for medicare when their workers retire maybe on Social Security instead f a pension that UAW workers were getting? You could make a better argument that the healthcare industry ruined the unionized companies, and soon all of us through medicare. Or even better you could say toyota ruined it.

As for American cars being equally reliable, right, whatever. My girlfriend's dad works for Chrysler, so they only drive American cars. They have three and at least one is in the shop almost constantly. And these are not old cars. I've had a Hyundai Elantra for 6 years, over 100,000 miles, and have not had a SINGLE mechanical problem yet.

Well admitedly Chrysler is the least reliable of American cars. They were bought out by Diamler Benz and I guess recently purchased back by an American. They've use a lot of Japanese parts in their cars though. But your claims that the Chrtyslers are so bad and you're Hyundai is flawless is anecdotal and questionable.

It's typical to see old Civics and Corolla's for sale with 200,000 + miles still running, I can't recall the last time I saw a domestic with that many.

http://www.jdpower.com/autos/ratings/quality-ratings-by-brand

Only American cars to get passed 3/5 are Lincoln and Mercury, but that's not really a fair comparison with Honda and Toyota - you'd need to compare to Lexus for that.

This is questionable. Older Civic's and to a lesser extent Corolla's required a lot of maintenace, valve adjustments and timing belt changes for the engine to make it to 200K. I haven't seen too many of them make it. I've sen a lot of GM cars make it to the 200k mark. I've owned some that did and know of plenty others that did. You'll see some 80's, 90's american cars around but you don't see many honda's despite they sold more than any other models.

This whole discussion is just going in circles people want to believe with a closed-mind what they want to believe and will make any claim supporting their position and disregard any information that refutes it.

 

[Poonani Maker]

^^ SmoothTalker's a Canadian and doesn't know about our unions other than what he reads on paper. If it weren't for our unions, wages would not be where they are today. God forbid you live in an at-will state and not have a union. Contract with your company, you say? Forgetaboutit. If no union is there to represent you to get your job back, then you must Hire a lawyer, and that's more money out of your pocket BIG COMPANIES know you're not willing or Able to spend. If you have no union, in ANY company, you're behind the 8-ball right were they want you. You'd better play politics and kiss azz or you won't have a job. Sorry, I can't live like that and have already been/tested that route to find out that's not for me. Government is another avenue I've taken and didn't like that either because my coworkers didn't know the meaning of work. Where I am now, I totally respect my co-workers, my brothers if you will, and even management who's REALLY behind the 8-ball. I do not envy them.

 

[SmoothTalker]

Alright, lets not get started on the whole which cars are better thing. As for why they were doing just fine with unions before, that's because before there was a) Very little competition and b) Mostly young workers who don't need a lot of health care because of the baby boom.

Poonani Maker, have you been to Canada? It's amazingly similar economically, except we pay more taxes and don't have Mexicans. Turn of the century, we had just as bad working conditions and then they improved because of unions and all that, quite similar to your history really. But they've outlived their usefulness.

As for a company just firing you if you're not in a union. Companies like making profit, we should all know that. If you're a PRODUCTIVE and valuable worker, they will not fire you, why would they? And if you're not pulling your weight, I don't think you should get any protection. Most of the people I know don't have unionized jobs and none of them are getting fired or otherwise abused at work because of it. Why? Because they've got something to offer to the company, and if that company doesn't want it, many others do. It's the people not willing to update their skills that are complaining, but tough cookies.

Btw, my girlfriend's family only has one Chrysler, and 2 Buicks, which are supposed to be one of the better American brands, but I really wouldn't think so.

 

[HandyAndy]

I heard Hilary Clinton would bring our troops back home? Would that help the economy? Seeing as how we dont have to fund the war anymore..or do we?

 

[ketostix]

Alright, lets not get started on the whole which cars are better thing. As for why they were doing just fine with unions before, that's because before there was a) Very little competition and b) Mostly young workers who don't need a lot of health care because of the baby boom.

This debate isn't about cars it's about which cars are better for Americans and the economy. "As for why they were doing just fine with unions , that's because before there was a) Very little competition ". That was the whole point, competion from lower cost labor. "and b) Mostly young workers who don't need a lot of health care because of the baby boom". So your solution is to let Toyota and others to pass this healthcare cost on to the US government and taxpayers while they sell thier cars for more than American ones.

As for a company just firing you if you're not in a union. Companies like making profit, we should all know that. If you're a PRODUCTIVE and valuable worker, they will not fire you, why would they?

Let's see to hire lower cost immigrant workers or maybe because they're closing down and outsourcing. Or maybe because they need a younger horse that can work harder.

And if you're not pulling your weight, I don't think you should get any protection. Most of the people I know don't have unionized jobs and none of them are getting fired or otherwise abused at work because of it. Why? Because they've got something to offer to the company, and if that company doesn't want it, many others do. It's the people not willing to update their skills that are complaining, but tough cookies.

That's not the experience of a lot of people who saww their industries dismantled.

Btw, my girlfriend's family only has one Chrysler, and 2 Buicks, which are supposed to be one of the better American brands, but I really wouldn't think so.

I'm having a hard time believing your Hyundai is more durable than Buicks. Even the automotive press has rated several Buick models well. Well since there's only 3 or 4 cars in your sample, I wouldn't consider it proving anything.

 

[SmoothTalker]

How is Japan a lower cost labour market? Or if it is, why? We aren't talking about China or Mexico here, Japan is a very developed country with very good quality of life and standard of living. Same for Germany. By your theory neither of them should be even remotely competative.

Okay so China definitely has an advantage in cheap labour, but that really doesn't explain why Japanese products are so popular. And it's not just cars either, electronics and other goods too. Maybe it's because they value education and training, while here people value college for the chance to get drunk and **** around a lot.

As for unions, a poor peasant in a third world country shouldn't have the skills to compete with you, especially after factoring in shipping costs and what not. If they can, then ask yourself why you didn't get better training or work harder. If the company is closing down I dont think a union will help, they can't force something to stay in business if it's bankrupt.

Finally, when you get older your decades of experience should make you more productive if anything.

If the industry is disappearing, there's usually other ones popping up take their place. Retrain.

As for the car thing, obviously I know 4 cars doesn't prove anything. My personal experience with foreign cars has been very good, and you need to realize Hyundai is not the same company they were years ago. Quality has made massive improvements.

And they are indeed buicks, but like i said, i know a couple of cars doesn't prove anything.

 

[ketostix]

How is Japan a lower cost labour market? Or if it is, why? We aren't talking about China or Mexico here, Japan is a very developed country with very good quality of life and standard of living. Same for Germany. By your theory neither of them should be even remotely competative.

Jeez. Japan and Germany were at one time but aren't currently lower cost labor markets, so their cars are actually more expensive produced there. Germany produced cars in South America and I think S. Africa and sold them here in the past. Anyway the foreign makers took market share then they set up shop in the US replacing higher paying, unionized with benefits jobs, with lower paying, non union and non-benefit jobs.

The American companies and their workers were paying more taxes and paying for their retirement and healthcare. These foreign companies pay less, less benefits and less healthcare and retirement. In fact some of them get in return for putting their factor in a certain community in the US (keep in mind these are lower paying and lower benefits jobs than they replaced) such huge tax breaks and incentives that taxpayers were actually paying their labor costs for many decades. Yet they sale their cars for as much or more. And the revenue goes back to their home countries and into their economy. All the while places like Japan won't let us into their market. What part of this being a bad deal for the American economy are you not understanding?

 

[SmoothTalker]

I don't know about in the US, but I know here, where there is a very large Toyota factory in my city, the jobs are neither low paying/low benefit, but they are not unionized.

In fact I know several people that work there that love it, have good benefits, and the pay is very good. Even for basic positions people start at about 25 dollars/ hour, which i'm pretty sure is more than average.

Toyota isn't the boogy man, just a more efficient and successful company.