the economy

[Bonhomme]

Or consider Cuba, USSR? Very little disparity, not that great a lifestyle.

I find it deliciously ironic that communist propaganda even fools die-hard capitalists.

Examine the list of the wealthiest leaders, and many of those right up there in the top 10 are from communist countries. Stalin? He went and took everything he wanted, including women (at least those who preferred being taken to being shot). I think Castro and the Chinese leader were both among the top 5.

There has always been a great disparity between the wealthiest communist party members and the unfortunate masses in those nations.

But the key again is that those who are worst off in those societies are not doing well. Show me a nation in which the poorest are doing well, and I'll show you one which is peaceful, bountiful, and creative. I can think of no counterexamples throughout history.

Once again, I'm not against individual enterprise at all. I am a businessman, am not doing badly, and have a solid plan to become a millionaire, but it will take discipline and time due to the constraints facing me. And I'm working to the point where any more work adversely affects my well-being to the point it's counterproductive, like not enough air for an optimal gas to air ratio to run an engine. I may not be even "sharpening the saw" enough, to quote The Seven Habits of Highly Successful People.

I just think everybody who contributes their reasonable share to society deserves a reasonable share of its benefits and riches...

 

[Rumpelstiltskin]

America is heading towards a hard crash of the dollar - by design! A new regional currency is in the pipeline, a new regional American union.

"Can anyone spare a dime?" is the old American cry of the 1930's.

 

[ready123]

People who work waiting tables in inexpensive restaurants and don't have the looks, youth or image, or just plain cannot afford to quit to pursue a higher paying gig, stock clerks who are not deemed smart enough for management, janitors, cashiers at department stores, etc., etc., etc. That's who. I see it all around me.

Yea I've been there. That's why if I had to polarize income brackets, I wouldn't do middle class vs wealthy. I'd do working class vs everyone else. When you're poor, your whole life is a grind and free time is a bigger commodity than money. Once you hit middle class though and are living comfortably and no longer have to eat ramen, I agree with the other guy - wealth is yours as long as you have a plan and can delay gratification

 

[Rumpelstiltskin]

hti

 

[Rumpelstiltskin]

http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?t=123768&page=10&highlight=economic

 

[j-flex]

Socialism has never worked in the long run. Bonhome, you think that by getting money from the rich and giving it to the poor will make the society better. Nothing could be further from the truth. the thing is that you dont see the consequences of those actions.

All people cant live equal, because we dont have the same skills, neither the same way of thinking. you cant make the government to force people to give away their hard earned money just because they have it , but you can make the government to give the same opportunities to everybody, and how is that? by staying away from the economy and from people.

If you want to start a business go on, no high taxes, if you want to work 80 hours a week so you can be rich go on, no high taxes for trying to make more money. if you found a business oportunity about importing cheaper goods from the world, go on, no taxes. if you want to work only 20 hours a week thats ok, no taxes.

The freer the country (economically) the richer it is.
http://www.heritage.org/Index/
Index of economic freedom.

The easier for people to make business the richer the country.
http://www.doingbusiness.org/

take a look, very interesting.

 

[MacAvoy]

Joeker, I'm curious if your comments about the economy were about the US or Canadian economy. I don't think we've hit our down turn yet and it will likely be another year before the US economy downturn hits ours to the point where we are in the negative as well. I think the US is just at the very beginning of a major downturn, 1-2 years. The second of which will affect ours.

Unfortunately, the end of the war and their deficit, will prevent them for spending their way out of it. I think they're goin to have to let it correct itself and suffer for a bit for it to get better. Remember 1990 and how that felt like forever, I think this is going to make 1990 look like a cakewalk.

That being said, its all about how you position yourself. I have no clue what I'll be doin for money but I can guarantee you this, I'll still have a good disposal income. Its all about education/abilities and networking.

 

[Teflon_Mcgee]

That's whole "lazy" line is a crock of shit.

Good for you that you're going to retire an millionaire (provided you're doing so honestly and without screwing others over -- which I don't know enough about you personally to tell one way or the other), but I guarantee that for every one person like you who is gifted enough and/or has enough guile and/or has the resources and/or is able to deceive, exploit, and/or screw people to a point to make millions, there are at least 10,000 people who are working just as hard at their honest, valuable jobs, and barely earning enough to survive.

I agree that alot of money is made, and perhaps more easily, by unscrupulous methods. I've always lived by a code of ethics and morals and refuse to make money that way. Any I would say a majority of self-made people do to.

Are you saying waitresses, people who work their asses off at fast food restaurants, retail clerks, people who stock the stores from which you buy your toys and fine clothes, people who collect your trash, etc., are less deserving to live a decent life than you are to make more millions and "retire in your 30s"? Just because you also worked hard, but have abilities, interests, or whatever that are better suited to making money?

The jobs you described are the jobs almost my entire family holds. They are the jobs I've held since I was 14 years old. I know how hard these jobs are. And that's exactly why I don't want to work them.

But you know what? Just working these jobs is alot easier than working these jobs and then going home and studying till 2 in the morning and then getting 4-5 hours of sleep before you do it again. 6 or 7 days a week. Or coming home and working on ideas.

People who work these jobs (all but the poorest) still usually wear nice clothes, drive nice cars, go to the movies on the weekend, take a vacation once every year or two, subcribe to cabe or sattelite t.v.,run their heater in the winter and A.C. in the summer....

That's a pretty good life even though they don't have excess money.


OTOH, people who must build wealth from nothing sacrifice and forego all of the above mentioned "luxeries."

People working these hard jobs have it much easier than the wealth builder who works these hard jobs and then goes the extra mile by not reaping the benefits of what even such menial jobs produce.

[/QUOTE]

It's not true that "anybody" can do it. Not by a long, long shot. I know plenty of brilliant and motivated people who are simply unable to do much more than scrape by.

What stops them really is capacity. The economy simply lacks the capacity for everybody to make such incomes the way it is set up. People work too damn hard for sanity anyway, and I don't see too many millionaires among the lot.

This is one of the most common assumptions of the middle class. It is commonly reffered to as the "scarcity mentality."
And it is untrue.

There is more than enough money to go around. Money is out there waiting for those who want it. And the cool thing is, the more people who have money, the more money is created for people to take.

I once new a "mentor" who would repeatedly say "money is the easiest thing in the world to get." And he was right. You wouldn't beleive some of the easy ways he made money. It would make sit back and go, "DUH, why didn't I think of that?"

I know for a fact I can do much, much, much better financially by lying about my credentials and doing a hurried, half-assed job than providing the exceptional service I do (which takes a lot of time -- which is money, after all).

Your right. And I despise things of low quality. I equate it to laziness.
If I'm going to do a job for somebody (including my employer) I'm going to do an outstanding job. I look at it as a competition. I'm going to be better than all who has done the job before me.

Now that being said, if doing a good job at a particular job doesn't enhance my potential to create wealth, then I'll give that particular job up as soon as I can.

But you know what ... I happen to think my soul is worth more than a million dollars ... or even a billion, for that matter. Too fucking bad for me...

I don't understand this reasoning. You don't have to sell your soul to become rich. And once you are rich it is so much easier to do good.

Punish people for being wealthy? More like make them pay for the order that society provides for them. If anybody thinks they truly "make it" without any help from society, they are truly deluded.

I agree 100%. But realize what you say. Our society does provide the means to reach the end. We all have a responsibility to the society which we choose to live in. Poor or rich.

But remember, the poor person has the same society as the rich man. So why is it the society that enables one man to become rich must keep another poor?

BTW, who do you thing the greatest philanthapers are? Poor people? NO!!
It is rich people who give. It is rich people who create jobs. It is rich people who come up with ideas that make mankind great. It is rich people who fund research and projects to enhance our lives.

 

[Bonhomme]

Bonhomme, I think you are a bit misled here. I don't know where you have worked, but in every workplace I have ever been to there are a lot of people that just don't care to go the extra mile.

Predictably, those are the people that live paycheck to paycheck and always have something to complain about.

What are these people doing to get ahead I ask? Nothing, because the they are mostly content.

Misled, not by a long shot. In my work as a private home inspector I'm penalized financially for doing a very good job. Writing exceptionally good, useful reports takes a lot of time, and time is money. I get penalized for "going the extra mile," not rewarded.

The Almighty Market has no fix for that. I can't charge twice as much for providing twice the quality because people will only pay what the market will bear. I may be able to command a much better rate by out-and-out lying about my experience. Ain't that just beautiful?

And this is not atypical, by any means. People get rewarded by paying the workers who do the work that gets them where they are less. People get rewarded for saving costs by dumping carcinogens straight into the river, rather than paying for the treatment equipment to clean up their waste. I can go on and on and on and on, but I don't have time to because I have to cut this break short and get back to work.

That's why I have such a chip on my shoulder about capitalism: because it rewards people for turning out crap, while penalizing people for quality. That is insane.

 

[Bonhomme]

I agree that alot of money is made, and perhaps more easily, by unscrupulous methods. I've always lived by a code of ethics and morals and refuse to make money that way. Any I would say a majority of self-made people do to.

I would say that a majority of self-made millionaires don't. Probably a vast majority.

The jobs you described are the jobs almost my entire family holds. They are the jobs I've held since I was 14 years old. I know how hard these jobs are. And that's exactly why I don't want to work them.

But you know what? Just working these jobs is alot easier than working these jobs and then going home and studying till 2 in the morning and then getting 4-5 hours of sleep before you do it again. 6 or 7 days a week. Or coming home and working on ideas.

Most people can "work on ideas" until they wither away, and still won't be able to parley that into massive income.

BTW, who do you thing the greatest philanthapers are? Poor people? NO!!
It is rich people who give. It is rich people who create jobs. It is rich people who come up with ideas that make mankind great. It is rich people who fund research and projects to enhance our lives.

Most of what most of them give is but a small percentage of what they've already taken from others -- by paying them a mere pittance compared to the contribution they get from those people's work or the money people pay to them.

I'll grant there are exceptions. If you're one of them, I applaud you, Teflon. But more often than not, it just ain't quality and generosity that makes people rich. On that note, sanity break's over, back to work...

 

[j-flex]

http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?t=140634

 

[Teflon_Mcgee]

And I'm sorry, but from my own PERSONAL observations, which probably aren't true in all cases, most working class people are not that over worked. I wasn't really talking about the single mother of 3 working two jobs to make ends meet, in which case you're probably right. I was talking about young, otherwise capable people that aren't all that burdened yet, choosing to not aim higher because they want the immediate reward and less effort. The people who are thrilled when school is out not because of the accomplishment and the chance to relax, but because they'll "never have to learn anything again". For example, my friend's cousin dropped out of high school and got a factory job. With the income, he went out and got a brand new BMW to drive around. Do I wish I could afford that, while walking through a snow storm to catch the hour long bus ride to school? Hell yes. But longer term, I'd say my plan will pay off better.

I say those people get what they deserve, and again from my experience, I've seen plenty of my friends, who were very bright, just choose this path though they could have done better.

EXACTLY!!
It is the middleclass who keep themselves middleclass.
It because people want what they want NOW.

This is the most common story in America.

I bet if people committed to a life of poverty while dedicating their waking hours to work and education, 90% of them would become super rich.

Instead they take the first thing that comes along that will provide a typical life and then debt themselves right up to the brink of their paycheck so they have more than the comforts they need and are now able to scrape by week to week.

Life is nothing but choices.

I feel sorry for my friends who got girls pregnant and now work two jobs and have miserable lives. I feel sorry for my friends who spent their youths on drugs and now have miserable lives. I feel sorry for my cousins who are alcholics and drink beere all day in their miserable lives.

But the bottom line is they made these choices. I didn't. I made a conscious effort not to make these choices.

I feel sorry for them but I REFUSE to be responsible for them when I come from the exact same background.

Life is about choices. Life is about taking what you want. An the fact is, for all you say it isn't, the life you live is the exact life you want to live.

It's easy to say, "I want big muscles."
But if you really want big muscles you'll go to the gym and work out.
Otherwise you may say it, but you really want small muslces because you choose to watch the Simpsons instead of hit the gym.

Like wise, its's easy to say, "I want to have more money to do what ever I want."
But the truth is your living the life you want. You wanted a nice car now instead of driving a beater for the net ten years. You wanted a nice house now instead of a 600 ft^2 studio. You wanted to have fun/relax after work instead of working even harder when you get home.
Thus, you are living the exact life you want.

Me? I dream of being a millionaire. I want to be a millionaire.
I drive a 10 year old car. I live in an 800 ft^2 condo. I come home from work and go to work. I wear the the same two pairs of pants everyday, patching them as needed. I have more disposable income that alot of the people I know, yet I live in a higher state of poverity than they do.
I live the life the middleclass won't so I can become what the middleclass want (but they probably never will.)

This is my choice.

 

[joekerr31]

Joeker, I'm curious if your comments about the economy were about the US or Canadian economy. I don't think we've hit our down turn yet and it will likely be another year before the US economy downturn hits ours to the point where we are in the negative as well. I think the US is just at the very beginning of a major downturn, 1-2 years. The second of which will affect ours.

i think things will be good here in canada long into the future. in fact i think things will only get better. the reason being that we are a modest people. the usa is important from an exporting perspective, and we'll suffer a bit in that regard, but there's still 5.9 billion other people in the world to export to and most countries love doing business with Canada. and if the usa's war mongering strategies pay off, we'll get in on some of the rewards since the usa loves us and so does the rest of the world. if their war mongering continues to produce hatred from the rest of the world, no big deal for us, since other countries see us a peace loving nation.

because our debt is well under control, we have a great education system, have universal health care, and our government is first and foremost concerned with issues relating to the citizenry (as opposed to war mongering and raising money for campaigns) - even if we are facing a global recession Canada will survive it better than the usa.

one of the big things going for us is that we have as much land as the united states (actually in terms of land mass we are larger) but only 30 million people
heck, if everyone in the united states moved to Canada we'd still have plenty of space.

unfortunately though, aside from the west coast, every other region up here has damn cold winters.

my only complaint is i'd like to know why gas prices are so damn expensive when we have the tar sands in calgary (why aren't we using that oil to get 25 cent a litre gas?). harper should have his balls cut off for this.

anwyay, most canada's aren't in the kind of debt many in the usa are as we don't have that 'live big or die' mentality generally speaking.

also, a lot of educated immigrants want to come to Canada over the USA because we have no guns up here, no racism, universal health care, etc. - which bodes well for our ability to stay competitive in a more competitive global world. the usa is being swamped with uneducated, poor immigrants south of the border. which is good if you want your garden taken care of or a nanny for your kids, but bad if you want more doctors, teachers, businessmen, engineers, etc.

the only damn thing we have going against us is the cold. but hopefully global warming will fix that

 

[bigjohnson]

my emphasis

Great post, A-Unit. It's absolutely true that most of the rich people's wealth is not earned.

Horsecrap. Even money inherited from Daddy was earned at some point.

That's whole "lazy" line is a crock of shit.

Lazy isn't probably the most correct term, more like content to make poor choices with regard to their future wealth. OK, that is pretty lazy, but it's not the classic moron definition of lazy.

Punish people for being wealthy? More like make them pay for the order that society provides for them. If anybody thinks they truly "make it" without any help from society, they are truly deluded.

But where is the justification for them paying MORE? I'm with Senor F on this, everyone should pay the same for the same services. McDonalds doesn't ask for last years taxable income before setting your menu prices.

 

[joekerr31]

just had a funny thought...

when you think about it Canada is kind of what you would get if you mixed Ron Paul and Hilary Clinton - fiscal responsibility, universal health care, and a desire to stay out of the rest of the worlds business (other than occasionally acting as peace keepers).

 

[bigjohnson]

Life is about choices. Life is about taking what you want. An the fact is, for all you say it isn't, the life you live is the exact life you want to live.

It's easy to say, "I want big muscles."
But if you really want big muscles you'll go to the gym and work out.
Otherwise you may say it, but you really want small muslces because you choose to watch the Simpsons instead of hit the gym.

Like wise, its's easy to say, "I want to have more money to do what ever I want."
But the truth is your living the life you want. You wanted a nice car now instead of driving a beater for the net ten years. You wanted a nice house now instead of a 600 ft^2 studio. You wanted to have fun/relax after work instead of working even harder when you get home.
Thus, you are living the exact life you want.

Me? I dream of being a millionaire. I want to be a millionaire.
I drive a 10 year old car. I live in an 800 ft^2 condo. I come home from work and go to work. I wear the the same two pairs of pants everyday, patching them as needed. I have more disposable income that alot of the people I know, yet I live in a higher state of poverity than they do.
I live the life the middleclass won't so I can become what the middleclass want (but they probably never will.)

This is my choice.

This is an excellent post.

One thing you touch on but don't really talk a lot about is that there is nothing wrong with being happy in the middle class. The middle class in America life a pretty damn fine life and it's just that they are human and humans like to bitch.

In reality if one rejects the artificial 'needs' foisted by the marketing machines being middle class is pretty nice. No one is starving, kids are growing up healthy except if they consume TOO MUCH food, accidental deaths are rare. Life has probably never been better for humans.

They are not being blown by Paris Hilton.

I'm not sure that's a bad thing honestly but I say that just as an example of the media machine that promotes a ridiculous lifestyle as the best way to be. Look at your life objectively. Everyone should work to eat. It's the natural and healthy state of humanity.

 

[A-Unit]

Re:

To clarify My point:

I was referring to the SOURCE of their income and how they manage their plans, not that they don't WORK for it or EXERT effort, but the nature of their income isn't always EARNED, therefore it is not treated the same when concocting an income statement.

Money come from production of perceived value. Even items that appear to have no value can have value if the perception allows for it. Something dumb like "Tickle Me Elmo" or PS3 when it first dropped had no great value, except the perception of value and low # of supplies. Arbitrage stepped in an equalized the perceived value and some made $.

However, NOT all business is noble, so the romantics need to tuck their bleeding corporate dollars in their pocket. I've read Rand and capitalism and have an Eco/Fin/Acc degree, so I know money, and business, and numbers. If you speak of the local guy who's out to produce and extract value for himself and his family, great.

But on a larger scale, don't deny that there's alot of shady dealings, misanthropy, unethical acts, and treason. As I've stated, corporate America is the LAST place to be speaking of ethics, as most companies employ they strategically for marketing, and not normally as the very first action-item of the day.

When speaking of the media, MOST of it is owned by the very few. When microsoft was up and coming, they forebade computer manufacturers from putting anything but IE on there, even though Firefox and such have proved better. When considering how lobbyists work to swing laws and business their way, we aren't talking about a FAIR playing field as you may see in sports.

It's money, the consummate instrument for attainment of what people most desire in society (not necessarily life). They'd do just ABOUT anything for it. Yes, the hard working individual is entitled to the stake he makes, but I have ZERO respect for the individual that bends or breaks rules, that uses questionable ethical and moral tactics, actions, and marketing, or even deludes themselves that its FOR THE GREATER GOOD.

What you do here...doesn't take you anywhere. It won't save your soul (if you believe you have one), and you can't take it with you. When you leave, if you've amassed billions, or even millions, you're better off doing what Buffet is doing so as not to create a crop of youths like Richie and Hilton who produce nothing. I'd prefer Gecko to Hilton and Richie and other celebutantes like them.

And yes, we've all seen the dregs of humanity, people so unmotivated, so tuned into the system, so debased, that they produce nothing and take what little they can. But how are they any worse or better than the c*cksuckers who blew up millions of people's 401ks buying $10,000 shower curtains and 6 figure rugs, while they lost MILLIONS? Or how about shifty mortgage lenders and bankers?

Religion nor business are this false, romantic ideal that the youths are perceiving it to be. I respect a guy like STR8UP if he roams around, but for every one like him, there's probably 8 guys who would screw your own grandmother and not think twice about it.

If you mean to be a better model of business, then so be it. But as of today, there's few exemplary individuals which invoke a spirit of confidence and respect. Maybe history over-romanticized them, too, but you're shirking blame from the rich to the poor, when both are accountable, the rich for their greed and the poor for the lethargy. Not all rich are that way. If they are ethical and only use the rules at their disposal, fine. But to exploit people, rules, and politicians is to denegrate capitalism.

Nothing is 100%. Nothing here is ideal. It's good. Business can make alot of money, but its tempting, and it wooes people too. If a person remains vigilant, then awesome. For those youths doing well, great. Be stand out people. When you're looking at the abyss of life alone, the only thing there is you. So often people put MONEY, EGO, and PRODUCTION above the value of humanity and a person. What if they, or even an ancestor or family member was one of those whom you are citing as poor or unproductive? Would you be so quick to throw them to the garbage compactor?

 

[Bonhomme]

Bonhomme, the market penalizes people that provide what they aren't willing to pay for. So perhaps you need to reassess the percieved value of what you provided versus what they are willing to pay before you say that you are unfairly penalized.

If they don't value the 'extra mile' you go, then you really aren't providing the service you THINK you are.

This is more circular logic: using the market's own criteria to justify the market.

I'm talking about the effect of the market on quality, and simply using my own business as an example, Danger. I'm not talking about fairness, which is obviously seen as a quaint and outdated notion, but quality.

And the incidence of many of these problems of pollution, poor wages, etc. in socialist countries is often attributed toward their market-driven aspects, or the simple lack of resources in the nation itself, which does not apply to the same degree in the US, thankfully. Why would one tolerate harmful amounts of pollution, if not to save money?

The genetic defect of capitalism is that it does not serve quality of life. It serves capital. And it's foolishly naive to think the two are one in the same.

**************

A-Unit, it would not surprise me if most people who are making a genuine effort to make millions would just as soon throw anybody in the trash compactor if it gets in the way of their road to millions.

**************

This has been a good discussion, but it's starting to go around in circles, so I'll just state my last bit and get back to work, so I can finish in time to catch a real cool band tonight (what? leisure activities? the horror!).

The sophistry with which people justify such a mean-spirited disregard for the welfare of human beings and the valuation of money over quality of life truly disgusts me.

And it just dumbfounds me how people can prefer a tooth and nail struggle for survival over the sort of comfortable, enjoyable, low-stress existence that is well within the realm of possibility for every American who does their fair part, given this nation's vast resources ... while still affording ample opportunity for those with ambition to become immensely wealthy.

But the funny thing is that you guys who are touting the virtues of the system are absolutely right in that a large enough percentage of Americans are responsible for their own difficulties by uncritically accepting what is going on. I can't make them realize they could have it much better if they stop chasing after crap and demand better.

The best I can do is continue to say "no" to the artificial needs, stick to my guns, state my piece for those who care to listen, and optimize the quality of my own life and those with whom I deal.

Teflon_McGee, I suspect you and I are actually a lot more alike than most people looking in on this discussion could imagine.

 

[Francisco d'Anconia]

Here's my question Bonhomme:

What stops the guy earning only 20K/year from going out and becoming a millionaire? In America there is absolutley nothing that can stop him besides himself and his choices.

Why should the guy who went out and worked hard and became a millionaire be punished for doing so by paying a higher percentage than the guy who chose to just do whatever?

This drives me nuts!! I grew up in a poor family. I watched all my relatives sit at home and drink beer. my sister is almost 30 and still a waitress. My Mom is no better off. Half my cousins can't/won't even hold a job.

But you know what? Because I sacrifice and work long miserable days I'm going to 'retire' a millionaire in my thirties.

And it really sucks to think that 15 years of hard work is going to go to subsidize my fellow Americans' lazy habits because I'm going to be expected to pay their share.

Does somebody bringing in 10,000,000 yearly really need all that money?
Of course not. But why doesn't he deserve it if he spent a lifetime working for it?

Middle class people have disdain for rich people because they just assume it was easy for them to become rich. And I say this having grown up below the poverty line.

In reality, anybody can become rich in America. In reality, the self-made rich people worked very hard to get to where they're at. In reality, the middle-class have no idea what kind of sacrifices it takes and if they did they probably wouldn't choose to make them because it would create to much discomfort in their lives.

Sombody understands!!!

 

[SmoothTalker]

I find it deliciously ironic that communist propaganda even fools die-hard capitalists.

And I find it deliciously ironic when someone who I'm going to guess has lived in the USA all their life tries to educate someone that has actually been to 'communist' countries like Cuba where you aren't allowed, and has actually lived in the USSR, with family there for generations.

Aside from perhaps a small hanful of the ultra-elite, in those societies there was very little disparity between people.

The only problem was, they were all equally poor. Some things were better, you didn't have to worry about going broke to pay your doctor or unemployment and such, but overall, those systems simply DO NOT WORK. They just don't, and denying that because it doesn't fit in with your ideals doesn't really lead anywhere useful.