the economy

[bigjohnson]

I'd REALLY like to see the rich get the type of tax hikes us poor suckers have had to deal with for decades. Cut us a break ya bastids! :cuss:

I'd LOVE to see the 'rich' pay taxes at the same rate as everyone else. At last we agree on something.

 

[Señor Fingers]

Stranger things have happened!

 

[A-Unit]

Re:

The source of most rich people's wealth isn't EARNED income. You don't need RK to know that, just check out what THEY own. Who they are. Even if you're Howie Mandel on "Deal or No Deal", yanking down dresses and millions, paying income taxes after what he probably dumps into special investments and businesses, he makes out better.

30-40% off 10,000,000 is nothing when compared to 20-30% off 80,000. Once you cross a threshhold, it's all gravy. Not to mention the more "well off" people have time AND money. By paying a little more, they get ALOT more, be it in flights, accomodations, access, whatever.

I love when people notice a $10 jump, it isn't HUGE and penny pinching and being pound foolish is just even dumber.

We screwed the pooch and smoked the bone from both ends on this economy. We had a surplus, they felt it better to put a little cash back in OUR hands, and blow the rest on a rowdy war making money for a few sharks at the top. Now after 8 years, can we say it was worth it?

Do we feel safer? What was gained? What was lost? Who made money? Who profitted? Where will it take us?

Companies don't FORCE you to work there, but they certainly CARE more about organizing and lobbying for laws that work to their favor in turning a profit. More than just a handful of people hate Wal-Mart because of their seedy tactics and ability to put mom and pop out of business. If you dig a little big, you'll see they aren't the hokey "down home" business portrayed in the media, especially when they are worth well over 250 billion dollars. They're anything BUT "down home."

After watching Mortgage companies implode, Enron, Arthur Anderson, and so many other's, I thought people might wake up from the Gordon Gecko "eat his ****ing lunch" mantra, but I guess not. Apparently it's cool to be so self consumed, so profit driven, that you don't care who you screw.

I work in Finance independently. The only thing I see are people who STOPPED educating themselves losing jobs because they were mostly a "cog in the wheel" of a company/industry that would eventually find a more profitable, up-to-date cog.

Industries like Healthcare, Finance, Tech, Sales, and Service won't go anywhere. Like the roaring 2000's which had alot of brokers, it's weeding out the trash that shouldn't be there, which had ill intentions. I'd say alot of the mortage fall out was unscrupulous sales tactics, ridiculous rates, and greed on the half of home owners. This market, more than ever, emphasizes the need for sounds, consistent financial advice. I guarantee had most of those people had an Financial Advisors to bounce ideas off of, there'd be less foreclosures.

I am not unenlightened to business tactics, which are ALL about profit, and that isn't ALWAYS a good thing, especially when it calls into question tactics, ethics, morals, and manipulation.

Humanity is at war. There's a siege on consciousness, personal freedom, and responsibility. We are book smart, life stupid. We aren't aware we are selling away ourselves to corporate systems for a "comfy, safe" life. We take no responsibility in anything, be it kids, driving, actions, speech, voting, or life. We enter the world a sniveling baby, and leave it the same way. Most people never learn to think on their own, or control themselves and their true emotions.

With respect to the economy, it's not totally bad off, because the powers that be, won't let it. It's JUST ENOUGH for those who want and can profit, will. They will create economic instability for their own power and to shift around the popoulace. More than anything, this demonstrates control at higher levels. Our system provides the opportunity for wealth, supposedly, but at what price to one's own soul? Indoctrination? Acceptance? Assimilation?

If you had to get the RFID chip, or have millions of dollars, what would you choose? And what about corporations desiring net neutrality? If they choose provide a high class net and a low class one, what does that mean to free speech and communication, including a message board like this?

People are missing the FOREST (life, consciousness, awareness, responsibility), for the TREES (economic upheavel, presidential elections, stock prices, booms and bust, gay straight/marriage.) Everyday a person gets worked up over something, derailed, controlled by their emotions, when that same thing won't be remember years later, much less an HOUR later.

The economy is as GOOD as you make it to be. As good as you position yourself. A sound financial plan is not BASED on the economy, but on you and your goals. It has ALOT of wiggle room. The only effect the economy may have are arbitrage cycles, i.e. what to be investing in. 2000's, it was stocks as you couldn't lose, then Real Estate/Stocks. Now, it appears commodities and gold. In any market, there's a niche to be found profitable.

However, most people just "get a job", without thinking of the MARKET, demand, and also creating a rock solid financial plan FIRST. That's more important than a HOUSE, because in fact, your FP IS YOUR HOUSE. It supports your house, your debts, your bills, your assets, even your access to more education, with exception of the library. FEW people have one. I'd guarantee that the richest 5% have one. Those who have money have one. And the rest are just rich by DUMB luck, because that make a pretty penny, enough to cover bills, but don't realize they could more. Just check out all the broke X athletes.


A-Unit

 

[bigjohnson]

The source of most rich people's wealth isn't EARNED ....

That's pretty much all I needed to read to ignore the rest.

 

[Bonhomme]

The source of most rich people's wealth isn't EARNED income. You don't need RK to know that, just check out what THEY own. Who they are. Even if you're Howie Mandel on "Deal or No Deal", yanking down dresses and millions, paying income taxes after what he probably dumps into special investments and businesses, he makes out better.

30-40% off 10,000,000 is nothing when compared to 20-30% off 80,000. Once you cross a threshhold, it's all gravy. Not to mention the more "well off" people have time AND money. By paying a little more, they get ALOT more, be it in flights, accomodations, access, whatever.

After watching Mortgage companies implode, Enron, Arthur Anderson, and so many other's, I thought people might wake up from the Gordon Gecko "eat his ****ing lunch" mantra, but I guess not. Apparently it's cool to be so self consumed, so profit driven, that you don't care who you screw.

I am not unenlightened to business tactics, which are ALL about profit, and that isn't ALWAYS a good thing, especially when it calls into question tactics, ethics, morals, and manipulation.

People are missing the FOREST (life, consciousness, awareness, responsibility), for the TREES (economic upheavel, presidential elections, stock prices, booms and bust, gay straight/marriage.)

my emphasis

Great post, A-Unit. It's absolutely true that most of the rich people's wealth is not earned. In fact, more is inherited than gained by any other means.

As for taxes, I'd go further and say 40% of $10,000,000 is nothing compared to $1 on $20,000! Does the person making 20K per year not need that dollar more than the multimillionaire needs more than 6 million in a year?

But I'm more concerned with the bottom than the top. I think it's insane that anyone making $30K US or less per year be taxed based on income at all.

As for supporting the "profit above all else" principle, it's like a religion, not something most people examine rationally in the US. All one needs to say is the word "socialism," and the mind just shuts off. When one takes a step back and looks at it free of dogmatic hang-ups, it's just exposed as completely absurd, even insane, when matters such as public health and people's very survival come into play.

 

[Joe The Homophobe]

the economy is going to hell in a handbasket and gas is predicted to hit $5 a gallon. We are screwed. Better start to love public transportation now rather than later!

 

[SmoothTalker]

Lol it always annoys me when American's ***** about the price of gas. You guys have it cheaper than most of the developed world. Europe probably currently pays at least double.

Hell, 5 bucks a gallon is roughly $1.32 dollars/liter. Currently it's $1.08/liter here, I've seen it as high as 1.20, and in other parts of this country it's been well above 1.30. It sucks, but the world didn't end.. And this is in a country that's experiencing a huge oil boom in several regions, so you'd think we would have cheaper gas.

Maybe it'll finally knock some damn sense into you guys, you don't need ****ing 5 ton SUV's or 6 liter V8 engines to get you to work and the grocery store.

One thing's for sure, the dumbass American car manufacturers (who didn't take a hint about why Toyota has been creaming them) will sorely regret the current trend of bringing back muscle cars. They disappeared because of an oil crisis. Why would now, when oil is $100 + per barrel, be a good time to bring them back?

 

[ready123]

my emphasis

Great post, A-Unit. It's absolutely true that most of the rich people's wealth is not earned. In fact, most is inherited. Again, most.

I think he was talking about secondary income from investments, as opposed to getting rich from a paycheck

 

[Joe The Homophobe]

Lol it always annoys me when American's ***** about the price of gas. You guys have it cheaper than most of the developed world. Europe probably currently pays at least double.

Europeans don't travel the long distances we do and europe has better public transportation. They have metros, subways, most places in america got nothing but the bus and freeway.

 

[SmoothTalker]

First of all, yes I know Europe has better public transit, but that's really our own fault.

And for the record public transit in Canada is ****, so I'm just saying if we can survive so can you guys, you'll just have to adjust a bit to not having it easier than everyone else.

 

[RedPill]

I think he was talking about secondary income from investments, as opposed to getting rich from a paycheck

Thank you. Beat me to it.

 

[Bonhomme]

That may have been what A-Unit was talking about -- and no doubt a great deal of money is made that way -- but based on the information I have, inheritance is the greatest source of wealth.

 

[Joe The Homophobe]

First of all, yes I know Europe has better public transit, but that's really our own fault.

what do you mean by "our" im guessing you mean the govts which in truth does not equal you or me. The reason we are in this mess is due to decisions made long before you and I were born. Not to mention that we could say that only recently have the small car/fuel efficient craze gotten big. The culture from gas guzzlin to smaller/fuel efficient cars is not the mainstream yet.

 

[SmoothTalker]

Well, I guess that depends on if you believe you live in a democracy or not. Or in capitalism. If you believe either, than by extension it is our fault, for not electing governments that focus more on things like public transit, and for not creating the market demand for it. If people stopped buying cars, I bet a whole lot of companies would start offering mass transit very quickly.

As for the gas guzzling thing, that's exactly my point. It hasn't really caught on around here yet, and it's really about time it did. I think with gas getting more and more expensive, it finally will.

 

[Teflon_Mcgee]

Here's my question Bonhomme:

What stops the guy earning only 20K/year from going out and becoming a millionaire? In America there is absolutley nothing that can stop him besides himself and his choices.

Why should the guy who went out and worked hard and became a millionaire be punished for doing so by paying a higher percentage than the guy who chose to just do whatever?

This drives me nuts!! I grew up in a poor family. I watched all my relatives sit at home and drink beer. my sister is almost 30 and still a waitress. My Mom is no better off. Half my cousins can't/won't even hold a job.

But you know what? Because I sacrifice and work long miserable days I'm going to 'retire' a millionaire in my thirties.

And it really sucks to think that 15 years of hard work is going to go to subsidize my fellow Americans' lazy habits because I'm going to be expected to pay their share.

Does somebody bringing in 10,000,000 yearly really need all that money?
Of course not. But why doesn't he deserve it if he spent a lifetime working for it?

Middle class people have disdain for rich people because they just assume it was easy for them to become rich. And I say this having grown up below the poverty line.

In reality, anybody can become rich in America. In reality, the self-made rich people worked very hard to get to where they're at. In reality, the middle-class have no idea what kind of sacrifices it takes and if they did they probably wouldn't choose to make them because it would create to much discomfort in their lives.

my emphasis

Great post, A-Unit. It's absolutely true that most of the rich people's wealth is not earned. In fact, more is inherited than gained by any other means.

As for taxes, I'd go further and say 40% of $10,000,000 is nothing compared to $1 on $20,000! Does the person making 20K per year not need that dollar more than the multimillionaire needs more than 6 million in a year?

But I'm more concerned with the bottom than the top. I think it's insane that anyone making $30K US or less per year be taxed based on income at all.

As for supporting the "profit above all else" principle, it's like a religion, not something most people examine rationally in the US. All one needs to say is the word "socialism," and the mind just shuts off. When one takes a step back and looks at it free of dogmatic hang-ups, it's just exposed as completely absurd, even insane, when matters such as public health and people's very survival come into play.

 

[Bonhomme]

Here's my question Bonhomme:

What stops the guy earning only 20K/year from going out and becoming a millionaire? In America there is absolutley nothing that can stop him besides himself and his choices.

Why should the guy who went out and worked hard and became a millionaire be punished for doing so by paying a higher percentage than the guy who chose to just do whatever?

This drives me nuts!! I grew up in a poor family. I watched all my relatives sit at home and drink beer. my sister is almost 30 and still a waitress. My Mom is no better off. Half my cousins can't/won't even hold a job.

But you know what? Because I sacrifice and work long miserable days I'm going to 'retire' a millionaire in my thirties.

That's whole "lazy" line is a crock of shit.

Good for you that you're going to retire an millionaire (provided you're doing so honestly and without screwing others over -- which I don't know enough about you personally to tell one way or the other), but I guarantee that for every one person like you who is gifted enough and/or has enough guile and/or has the resources and/or is able to deceive, exploit, and/or screw people to a point to make millions, there are at least 10,000 people who are working just as hard at their honest, valuable jobs, and barely earning enough to survive.

Are you saying waitresses, people who work their asses off at fast food restaurants, retail clerks, people who stock the stores from which you buy your toys and fine clothes, people who collect your trash, etc., are less deserving to live a decent life than you are to make more millions and "retire in your 30s"? Just because you also worked hard, but have abilities, interests, or whatever that are better suited to making money?

It's not true that "anybody" can do it. Not by a long, long shot. I know plenty of brilliant and motivated people who are simply unable to do much more than scrape by.

What stops them really is capacity. The economy simply lacks the capacity for everybody to make such incomes the way it is set up. People work too damn hard for sanity anyway, and I don't see too many millionaires among the lot.

I know for a fact I can do much, much, much better financially by lying about my credentials and doing a hurried, half-assed job than providing the exceptional service I do (which takes a lot of time -- which is money, after all).

But you know what ... I happen to think my soul is worth more than a million dollars ... or even a billion, for that matter. Too fucking bad for me...

Punish people for being wealthy? More like make them pay for the order that society provides for them. If anybody thinks they truly "make it" without any help from society, they are truly deluded.

 

[SmoothTalker]

I have to agree with Teflon on this. I know plenty of people that have committed themselves to a middle class at best life before they were even 20. While many people were making sacrifices such as studying or thinking up business ideas instead of getting drunk on 4 nights a week, not buying the fancy toys because they invest their time in their future rather than in working to consume useless stuff, then yes, they damn well deserve success.

Do poor people work hard? In some cases yes, physically they do work hard. But it is their own choice to be in that situation because they have chosen to simply work hard at their job, instead of working hard on themselves so that they can get a BETTER job.

Besides which, working hard has many definitions. A doctor might not break a sweat and come home filthy, but they're generally under a lot more pressure than a hard working factory worker. And lets not forget the 80+ hours/week that most people put in when starting their businesses. Tell me who in the working class puts in those kinds of hours working on something that very well could give you no reward (or even make you worse off than when you started?)

Most of it comes down to the ability to delay gratification. You can get a job after high school and get a reasonable steady income, and start living. Or you can get more schooling/start a business, and put in a LOT of work with pretty much no immediate reward. Do I wish I could have entirely free evenings every night and money to buy a car/clothes/beer like some of my working friends? Yeah. But I can look longer term and realize that 10 years from now, when they've maybe moved up at 1/4 of what I'll be making, it will be worth it. I'll be damned if you try to tell me I'm keeping the little man down.

PS: I know there are circumstances where people are forced to start working to support themselves and can't really pursue that sort of self development, but even then it's possible with enough motivation, and even if it's not, that's hardly the fault of successful people.

 

[Bonhomme]

Do poor people work hard? In some cases yes, physically they do work hard. But it is their own choice to be in that situation because they have chosen to simply work hard at their job, instead of working hard on themselves so that they can get a BETTER job.

Bullshit. For a vast majority it's the only damned way they can survive. Not everyone is born with a brilliant mind, good math skills, business creativity, or just plain cunning, ruthlessness, and or guile (which one must admit are very useful for making loads of money)... and many are having so much difficulty affording their basic needs they can't afford to quit their miserable jobs that take up all the energy they can spare.

Tell me who in the working class puts in those kinds of hours working on something that very well could give you no reward (or even make you worse off than when you started?)

People who work waiting tables in inexpensive restaurants and don't have the looks, youth or image, or just plain cannot afford to quit to pursue a higher paying gig, stock clerks who are not deemed smart enough for management, janitors, cashiers at department stores, etc., etc., etc. That's who. I see it all around me.

The fact is, these people are becoming worse and worse off with every passing year as their income remains static while the cost of living -- especially things like transportation costs, junk fees (that serve no purpose other than to enrich the already rich), "poverty tax" items like late fees, etc. skyrocket.

Again, I don't begrudge anybody the right to get rich with honest brilliance and/or hard work. I just don't think people should be taxed based on income that is not even enough for a reasonably comfortable living.

I'm fine and dandy with a flat tax based on income above the amount one needs to live a reasonably comfortable, middle-class standard.

 

[Bonhomme]

What's more, throughout history, the health and well-being of any society tends to correlate with the well-being of the non-criminal, non-parasitic people who are least well off.

There has always been the greatest disparity of wealth in the citizens of those societies in which there is the greatest overall misery and stress. Consider the typical "Third World" country...

 

[SmoothTalker]

Or consider Cuba, USSR? Very little disparity, not that great a lifestyle.

Look, some people get luckier than others in terms of beauty, intelligence, and other skills. We can agree about that. And I also agree that we shouldn't be taxing poor people. Where I don't agree is that we should tax the hell out of rich people. That's just bad economics in the long run, since lowly as the jobs may be, the rich still do provide paychecks to the poor. Also, charge them enough and they'll either leave, or be a lot less motivated to make more money. Would we really be better off if they closed down their companies, put their wealth off shore, and just played golf a lot? Who wins under that scenario?

I think the experiment of communism PROVED that the only system that truely works is one that offers great rewards for success. It may leave people behind, but it also drives the capable to utilize their abilities.

And I'm sorry, but from my own PERSONAL observations, which probably aren't true in all cases, most working class people are not that over worked. I wasn't really talking about the single mother of 3 working two jobs to make ends meet, in which case you're probably right. I was talking about young, otherwise capable people that aren't all that burdened yet, choosing to not aim higher because they want the immediate reward and less effort. The people who are thrilled when school is out not because of the accomplishment and the chance to relax, but because they'll "never have to learn anything again". For example, my friend's cousin dropped out of high school and got a factory job. With the income, he went out and got a brand new BMW to drive around. Do I wish I could afford that, while walking through a snow storm to catch the hour long bus ride to school? Hell yes. But longer term, I'd say my plan will pay off better.

I say those people get what they deserve, and again from my experience, I've seen plenty of my friends, who were very bright, just choose this path though they could have done better.