The child-man

Rollo Tomassi

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There's so much to go off on in this article it's hard to know where to begin. A lot of you guys responding to this already have done a pretty admirable analysis of it, so let me shock the sh!t out of you for a minute. I think this woman is correct in her assessments, but for the wrong reasons.

Before I go into detail, let me qualify this by pointing out the most glaring motivation behind this entire article; the feminine social contrivance of shame. This is a textbook example of feminine shaming. The very premise of this woman's dissatisfaction is founded in men's perceived responsibility to be committed to a woman in marriage, parental investment, and the motivation for his ambitions ought to be prompted by a desire to better accomplish measuring up to a female specific goal-set. Anything less than this, anything that does not directly lead to this feminine idealization of security provision, and the man is automatically cast as being "child-like", immature or in some way retarded or stunted in his inability to recognize that her gender specific goals should necessarily be his own. Therefore a man without these recognitions needs to be ashamed of himself - so much so that he cannot be a "man" until he does so. This is the essence of shaming as a feminine social convention.

In addition to this, we are to understand that women are themselves more responsible and mature, not just for recognizing this, but for exceeding it themselves (or at least the perception of having done so) by fulfilling the masculine role on their own while the shameful man-child blissfully sits at home, plays x-box and masturbates to his latest issue of Maxim. Her position is empowerment by default in assuming the responsibility of providing for her own security (which should be his, remember?) that he is too immature to be trusted with. And again, this is the upside for she and her gender's interests as a result of this shaming. While simultaneously playing the responsible adult herself (dubious at best), she uses shame that appeals to his uniquely masculine sense of responsibility. He can't be wishy-washy, lacking ambition or indecisive to be defined as masculine, but she will gladly use this thumbscrew to shame him for her own gender's unique prerogative - the inalienable right to change her mind - literally, to be blamelessly indecisive.

As much as she relishes in her bemoaning the state of child-men, she herself is the direct result of the feminine social contrivances that grew from the 1965-70, 26 y.o. old guy backlash of the time. In typical female emotive fashion, women of this time didn't know what they wanted while they were asking for it. Now almost 40 years later they want men to Man up? Where have all the cowboys gone? Now she finds that all the things that she thought would be so beneficial for her gender in delimiting men are the very same things that remove the ambitions that make him attractive, responsible, accountable, etc.

Now, all that said, I agree with her. Men are less ambitious now. AFCs are the easiest target, I know, but they exist because their AFC father's and grandfathers we're shamed for being so ambitious, so controlling, so masculine, or are themselves the results of pacified, lazy, irresponsible, child-men. And even the Men who do see the Matrix for what it is and tenaciously stick to their masculinity in spite of it being ever present are the ones ridiculed for being so. The guy with the solid career, the man in control of his direction, the rare gentleman who does "measure up" to this feminine standard is then ridiculed for his masculine determination. Why does he feel the need to excel so passionately? "Oh his ego is fragile or he must be compensating for something, hur, hur, hur,.." And again, the social contrivance of masculine shame is used to limit him, but from the other side. It's a gender Catch 22. Shame him for not being a man, shame him for being one, in either case the feminine maintains the frame.
 

joekerr31

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Rollo Tomassi said:
And again, the social contrivance of masculine shame is used to limit him, but from the other side. It's a gender Catch 22. Shame him for not being a man, shame him for being one, in either case the feminine maintains the frame.

you know what i find funny. while women attempt to shame men, notice that men's fathers are not cracking down on their sons. THEY aren't shaming their sons. perhaps they sometimes question what their sons are doing with their life, but their fathers are NOT telling them 'whats wrong with you boy? go get married. you're failing as a man!" they typically are saying nothing.

that alone speaks volumes. its covert communication - a silent acknowledgement that they do not believe marriage is the panacae of human existence.
 

Rollo Tomassi

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joekerr31 said:
they typically are saying nothing.
Of course not. For a man to "interfere" with their son's development it only proves a need to compensate for his own shamed masculinity. Fathers fear to say anything because they've been conditioned to see masculinity as ridiculous, or a sometimes vestige of a violent past. This is why I so actively push positive masculinity, because it's been redefined and conditioned into both genders as either ridiculous or violent, and sometimes both. A Father who's been raised himself on this perception will only pass it on to the next generation and have it reinforced, even if does nothing. Why should a mid 20s kid want to Man up?
 

Master Bates

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Anyone else take from this article the sense that women want to have their cake and eat it too? It's this mentality that they expect to get an old-fashioned man without being old-fashioned women themselves. What they think they're deserving of is an old-fashioned marriage, but that kind of marriage requires roles that women are not willing to partake in anymore. So why should they expect us to be marrying and impregnating them before our mid 20s like we would back in the day when they would actually stay home with the kids, have a hot meal on the table by the time we're home from work, and wouldn't threaten us with divorce and taking half our money at the drop of hat? Feminist hypocrisy at its finest. Like someone above said, this article is just sour grapes.
 

reset

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Good post Rollo, except I couldn't really read it without getting kind of sick inside.

Did women say stuff like this in the olden days? I always thought in the past the woman tried to live up to the man's standards.

Actually women shaming men like this is what I'm used to, it's just I see it more clearly now and so am more repulsed by it. I guess women have always been shaming guys like this. If a girl started talking like this around me I'd be out of there.
 

wjh

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Rollo Tomassi said:
Of course not. For a man to "interfere" with their son's development it only proves a need to compensate for his own shamed masculinity. Fathers fear to say anything because they've been conditioned to see masculinity as ridiculous, or a sometimes vestige of a violent past. This is why I so actively push positive masculinity, because it's been redefined and conditioned into both genders as either ridiculous or violent, and sometimes both. A Father who's been raised himself on this perception will only pass it on to the next generation and have it reinforced, even if does nothing. Why should a mid 20s kid want to Man up?
It makes it that much harder, to man up, in any sense of the phrase, if you were in fact raised WITHOUT a father.
 

eyedogg

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Great posts Rollo - a lot of physcology involved, which makes it a complex issue, however. having greats like Rollo to break that down is so EMPOWERING for me. - Thanks Rollo!
 

Interceptor

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Rollo brilliantly pretty summed up entirely the issues at work here.

And I am sure there are rumblings and grumblings about this sad true Fact.

Reset mentioned that he felt 'sick' reading this and how women really think.

Women need securtiy. The overly popular manly Female is in desperate need for Polarity and masculine satisfaction, in that she cannot trust the wussty boy, and does in fact NEED a REAL masculine man.
(A masculine man's real leverage is his own masculinity, she has NO replacement for this, and she knwos it, but many males DO NOT So they grow up BELIEVING that they MUST sacrifice and bend to her whims)

They grow up not trusting Men and looiking at them as Providers, not lovers. ( you have to understand this mindset they grew up in. You cannot blame someone for being ignorant, but you must get away frmo excusing ignorance when the shun education. There are none so blind, as those who do not wish to see. This goes for Men too)
They fake falling in love, and start to frame their expectation of how they want their relatonship and their eventual marriage to be and the white picket fence and her social status , the eventual baby yada yada..

OK...
Women also know how to manipulate Men too.

Women also grow up believing and in many cases experienceing their Power of the Pvssy.
They are not afraid to Manipulate a guy, using their Power of their Pvssy , so that they can Frame the relationship and corner/extort the guy to submit to her standards.

With me?

See these 4 things?
All inter Related.

Sucks, huh?

I see Reset turning green...

BUT....
Here's the good news.

And it is not that hard to get and do, but it WILL take some work.


Women cannot hurt YOU. They can only 'hurt" your EGO. Women primarily manipuilate men through their Ego. (now there are exceptions, unscrupulous women can try to manipulate a guy using their children, this is pretty tough, but your inner strength, your inner emotional strength and resources, coupled with your Personal Boundary are your only choice to combat this)

If you know women are good at getting to men through their Ego, you will be forewarned to this potential action.
Being forewarned is being forearmed.

You know she will use the Power of the Pvssy on you.
You know she will compare you to 'real men' and SHAME you into submission.
You know she will attemtp to manipulate you through your Ego.

But if you know your path, and cannot be strayed.

If you know yourSELF, and have a Strong Identity..

And have Strong Self Esteem, and know that YOU built it, not HER....


And have Strong Personal Boundary, and know she cannot get in if you don't want her to...

And you know you've put aside your Ego, and face the world as an authentic Real MAN....

She cannot harm you.
She cannot manipulate you.
She cannot shame you.
She cannot extort you.

If you put ASIDE your EGO...

She will have NOTHING to grab onto.



As my instructor said to me: (be intangible and unassailable) ..."So that even the fiercest Tiger cannot sink in its claws."

Our EGO is and WILL BE our UNDOING.

Have no EGO.......you will not encounter these situations and if you do, you will be fore armed and much better prepared to deal with them.

Your Weapon and Armor are your shrewdness ,self esteem, independence, intellect, self worth, and Personal Boundary.

Go forth and undo your Egos.



If you want to play your XBox all day long, it is your choice
If she complains about it, and this is what you REALLY want to do, simply say "Hey, it's MY Life."
She wi8ll propbably walk out, but you are sticking to YOUR standards and your Path.
(I doubt any guy will be this dumb, but this is an example of being INDEPENDENT, and NON NEEDY. Plus, there are such things as Professional Gamers who HAVE to Practice their skills on an X Box for hours every day. It's their Living actually.)

If she wants THIS, know that you are within your right to ask for THAT.


Men must hit the ground running.
And grow the Balls of Steel and self respect,self esteem, self worth, and Personal Boundary to be able to ask for reciprocity.

Men must quickly learn to not give away the farm at the drop of hat, or the sight of a pretty woman.


You gain TREMENDOUS Power when you let go of the need for Female Validation, and acknowldege your Value and Self Worth.

When you are NOT desperate and needy, you have imbibed the elixir that protects you from the effects of the Power of the Pvssy, her one shot at dominating you........fizzled, gone...forever.

Are all Women "BAD"?

Nope.

But you can make all women pretty much harmless when you have your Sword and Armor.
 

eyedogg

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Beautiful, Inspiring, and OH SOOOOOOO TRUE Interceptor.

Now - question:

In regards to ego, I believe I made need some help here. I don't really think about my ego, sometimes I believe I DONT have one, other times I think I may still have it (how ever not overly bearing AKA BIG Ego), the only person who as mentioned it lately is my own kin: my older brother.

So my question(s): What would you suggest I do to truly find out if I have an ego, because if I do, I want to let it go (my brother is a big believer in "not having an ego). What test or questions do I need to ask myself to find out.

From there, if I do have one, how can I work on "truly letting it go"?

Thanks in advance for your time and input,
eyedogg
 

If you currently have too many women chasing you, calling you, harassing you, knocking on your door at 2 o'clock in the morning... then I have the simple solution for you.

Just read my free ebook 22 Rules for Massive Success With Women and do the opposite of what I recommend.

This will quickly drive all women away from you.

And you will be able to relax and to live your life in peace and quiet.

Interceptor

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Think of things that make you insecure.
Insecurity is hidden by EGO and Ego -based SELF IMAGE called PRIDE.

PRIDE can be managed for good, but EGO cannot IMO.


Think of times when you felt good about yourself, was it a complimen?t, or was it something you ACCOMPLISHED by YOURSELF?

Self Esteem is different from EGO.

Self Esteem is self acknowledgement and recognition of success achieved by one's SELF on one's own terms.
Self esteem is acknowledgement of achieving GOALS Independently.
INdependent of outside validation or recognition.

Ego is an artificial construct made by our sub consciousl that heps us deal with issue and circumstances in which we have NO TOOLS or resources or experiences.



If someone insults you and calls you a name, how do you REACT?
The word RE ACT is a clue.

Instead of RESPOND.

A reaction is a gut level or deep sub conscious level re action that is triggered when a situation or word pierces our EGO layer.

When someon egives you a complinment how do you respond?

When someone offends you, how do you respond?

Ego tries to cover things you are ahsamed about.

Insecurity and lack of courage, lack of familiarity, lack of resources, poor self image, lack of experiences.all these hitnjgs can make one feel embarassed and ashamed.and unfortunately EASY TARGETS to assail.

High Character prevents any internal damage form occuring.

Self esteem is the pre requiite to self respect and Personal Boundary,
These things are the envelope that help us move forward in the pursuit and development of High Character.

Self Esteem cannot be assailed because it CANNOT be REMOVED , DAMAGED or UNDONE.


If one uses a self perception from EGO, then one is actually extremely vulnerable to outside sources.


Character is Destiny.

What your charcater is like, say something about your eventual Destiny.

And the character of the people around you, say something about your own.

The EGO tries to PROTECT itself from damage.

Self Esteem is simly there, it shines through.

Ego, as in over inflated Ego always masks an insecurity, and for many many people, insecurity is still glaringly obvious despite all atempts to hide it.


Do not look or outside validation.
Do not expect it, nor seek it.

Recognition is pretty nice, but you cannot hang your identity or happiness on it.



If you get a compliment or recognition, take it in stride, acknowledge it, be polite, but don;t be overly swayed or influenced by it.
And insults shoudl only be looked at as a feedback, competely neutral.
Since you know it cannot harm you, you are indifferent to it.
Always consider the source.
 

reset

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Awesome. I want that ^^^

I was going to ask you to clarify the difference between ego and self-esteem but you beat me to it. I was thinking taking pleasures in your accomplishments was ego, but it's just self love I think, you're taking pleasure in yourself. Not in your success relative to other people.

More stuff to internalize.
 

eyedogg

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Thanks Interceptor! VERY much appreciated. FYI - in reading, I believe that I do still have a small ego, so on a 1-5 scale I have about a 2. Means I have work to do!
 

Bonez

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Drum&Bass said:
So, when things don't work out in womens favor we get :

1.) Happier men who have more control over their lives.

2.) Women who are forced to become smarter better people.

3.) Some long over due balance to the worlds over population (since men aren't starting families anymore).

4.) A world of intelligent independent people who are able to appreciate each other without women being dependent on men for resources (so gold digging and game playing will be at an all time low).

it's a WIN WIN situation !! All because men are learning that they don't have to be controlled by women and the media anymore !!!
Is it manly to cry? Because you just brought a tear to my eye.
 

alnite

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LOL. Women are ridiculous.

Teenagers: fell in love with movie stars and actors whom they haven't even personally met
Early twenties and thirties: manipulating men (who were actually serious) and "just wanna have fun"
Late thirties: "OMFG I am not married yet! Why is there no real men!?" Blame men.
Mid fourties to fifites: Menopause, frustration and become a feminist.

Men:
Teenagers: games and boobs
Early twenties and thirties: beer, games, and boobs
Late thirties: beer, games, and boobs
Mid fourties and fifties: beer, games, and boobs


Yeah...Anyway, I read a similar article a month ago on Reader's Digest on how the parents nowadays are not behaving like real parents that children need. I thought this article would talk on the same issue, but I guess not.
 

KarmaSutra

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Motherfvcker.

Interceptor and Rollo tore this thread to shreds!

Close it because anything else (setting aside input from Victory Unlimited) is a complete waste of time.
 

reset

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Interceptor said:
....Women need securtiy....

.....They grow up not trusting Men and looiking at them as Providers, not lovers.......

.....They fake falling in love, and start to frame their expectation of how they want their relatonship and their eventual marriage to be and the white picket fence and her social status , the eventual baby yada yada..
Ok, so... women want security. I grew up believing, security in our society means marriage, and the guy taking care of the woman. I thought that's what security meant. I understand it also means feeling safe and protected. What am I trying to ask here.

I guess I thought that a one man and one woman living together as a family unit raising children was hard-wired into us. I mean I can see we don't necessarily act like that, otherwise there would be no "wandering eyes"... but don't women want ONE MAN? No, cuz they can cheat.

Ok HERE'S what I'm asking. SECURITY. Has the need for security become marriage in a woman's eyes? Is marriage and monogomy the natural urge for security being manifested or society's version of security being manifested?

How much is our natrual instinct at play here and how much do we act out of just social conditioning? If we didnt' have current society would marriage still exist? I know this is really basic stuff but for some reason I'm getting confused again.
 

Interceptor

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reset said:
Ok, so... women want security. I grew up believing, security in our society means marriage, and the guy taking care of the woman. I thought that's what security meant. I understand it also means feeling safe and protected. What am I trying to ask here.

I guess I thought that a one man and one woman living together as a family unit raising children was hard-wired into us. I mean I can see we don't necessarily act like that, otherwise there would be no "wandering eyes"... but don't women want ONE MAN? No, cuz they can cheat.

Ok HERE'S what I'm asking. SECURITY. Has the need for security become marriage in a woman's eyes? Is marriage and monogomy the natural urge for security being manifested or society's version of security being manifested?

How much is our natrual instinct at play here and how much do we act out of just social conditioning? If we didnt' have current society would marriage still exist? I know this is really basic stuff but for some reason I'm getting confused again.

It is my belief that the easy answer is yes, Marriage is the ultimate goal for women, with children as well.
(although spiritually awakened women , and men, long for the intimate connection with a good partner, with less conditions and negotiations per se. )

And security like you explained is still a noble cause and perfectly good to pursue and maintain.

When people feel good about htmeselves in their relationship ,they have an easier time fitting in to their masculine and Femenine "roles".
It becomes fulfilling to be in those 'traditional' gender roles.
And also remember, that many women do not trust many men. So they stop looking at them as somethign truly valueable. More as a reosurce and commodity.
Their abiliy to emotionally detach here is key in this.
This is why some will choose a 'nice guy' to marry, so that she has a guarantee that the guy will supplicate and provide her with what she wants.
So often after going through their 'phase' , they will often want to 'settle down'; and then actually 'settle' for the husband, whom many women do not truly love, much less are strongly attracted to.


This is in lieu of spiritual awakening and realizaton through a Man's masculinity.
That is, a woman who does not see beyond the everyday realm looks forward to Marriage as the be all and end all.
Just like many many Men do.
We look as Marriage as an ultimate Self Realization mechanism and ultimate Female Validation as a Man.
And it can be, for Enlightened Men though IMO.
Now, marriage does entail the man living up to his destiny in realizing the 4 traits, being Lover, Warrior, Hunter, and Provider.

That Destiny IMO is not up for argument or debate, IMO it simply IS. It is my belief that a Man's Journey to Masculine Self Realization includes the complete dominance and manifestation of these 4 traits, including Leadership in ALL of them.
This is PART of a man's Mission, it is IMO a non negotiable part that MUST be completed.
I also feel that Men must have the Pursuit of High Character in their list of Goals to achieve, as these help us Realize the 4 traits, which in turn enable us to build Confidence to such a Degree that we become Leaders (and at some point, Mentors to others too)in these Areas of Masculinity.

She gains security , status, wealth, companionship, children, and just all of a man's resources.
Men DO get things too, I won't get into that because it is up to each man to decide and deliniate and DEFINE HIS Values. It is up to each man to finmd out what it is that HE wants out of marriage and relationships with women.


So, it is my belief that Marriage , the ultimate intertwining of men and Women, Masculine and Femenine energies CAN be an Enlightening and Spirtiual and Loving experience, but only in the hands of the right people.

IMO Couples are supposed to GROW Together. Instead, they often just GROW APART.

So marriage is a definite challenge, and for women, IMO it is their Major Goal in life.
Because IMO they have a deeply held belief of Self Reailzation thorugh Marriage, add their need for security and desire to have children, and marriage is quite high in many Women's list of goals.
If these marriage minded men and women BOTH had a deep desire and commitment to high character, then Marriage IMO wolud be much more successful than it really is.

But for many couples it is more often thannot based on trying to escape loneliness, and a need for security, something to believe and hold on to.


Would men and women still partner if there were no such thing as Marriage?
Of course.

However, there may be less pressure to HAVE to LIVE UP to some Goals, whether socially contrived or not.
Marriage is a DEVICE that WE created.

But Partnership between men and women is natural and cannot be stopped.
Men and women need each other. This is a Fact.

We search for companionship, love, sex, and femenine energy.
At some point we may want to break off the relationship and move on.
Marriage is designed to reduce this 'moving on'.

It doesn't seem to be working.

It is also my belief that the sparking of Interest in Mating and Coupling is a recognition of the NEED to RE Experience the effects of the chemical rush of Love. The endorphins and oxytocin, etc.
At some point, these do taper off.
It does.

This is often when men and women 'lose touch' and 'grow apart".
When the chemical rush has died down.

We seek a partner that we ALWAYS have that chemical rush.

It is possible.
But only in certain individuals.

So I say this is part of the reason Marriage IS such a Challenge.
Because you are meant to stay together after those chemical have died down.

Our belief that women want only 'one man' is self contrived. It is a myth.

We made it up, and women took advantage of it for thier purposes.

But it doesn't have to be all bad. Because just as there are plenty of men who CAN be exclusive and monogamous, so too are there plenty of women.
So if it is possible, then in something like this, it does exist.




Interceptor mid dump off
 

reset

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Wow I ask and you delivered. I'm just going to keep soaking it up. The reason I ask is a recently my friend who is the same age told me he had a date (rarely dates--my mirror) with a chick but she wasn't the type of girl he wanted to settle down with. He's getting older and he wants to get married. Then I started thiking hell am I SUPPOSED to be getting married now? Am I supposed to have children right now? "reset when are you going to give me grandchildren" "hmmm better hurry up and scoop up the right girl before it's too late" all this stuff from society. But I think it's more

Interceptor said:
But for many couples it is more often thannot based on trying to escape loneliness, and a need for security, something to believe and hold on to.
Because I don't think that came really from a deep desire from within me. I can't believe how much I DIDN'T know what I wanted from life. Did I even think for myself before I came here and started talking to you guys? Lol. I'm making up for lost time but now I look back and think of all the years I wasted drifting. But lately I don't have TOO much time to do that since I've become goal oriented. I'm like becoming a new guy.

Interceptor said:
Our belief that women want only 'one man' is self contrived. It is a myth.

We made it up, and women took advantage of it for thier purposes.
When I read that I immediately got anxious and got a nervous feeling in my stomach. Must be my insecurities being brought out.



Interceptor said:
When the chemical rush has died down.

We seek a partner that we ALWAYS have that chemical rush.
That's what I worry about, I'm sure many guys worry about that too.

So great post. Glad I asked, I was afraid it was a really elementary question but it wasn't :D .
 
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