The AFC Gut and Cognitive Dissonance

[LeftyLoosey]

So I take it she's not "putting out" AT ALL then? Or is she "putting out" once in a while? If she's not interested, then why do you suppose she stays with you? I'm curious to hear what you have to say.

She's putting out but only when she's drunk. She can't bring herself to f*ck me sober, because her interest level is so low.

She stays with me because in her mind she's created this dreamworld of the big house, dog, and two kids, and the perfect obedient husband to help her realize her dreams. I was that perfectly obedient husband.

If she was younger, she would probably leave me to look for someone she could respect, but she's in her late 20's now, has put on a lot of weight, and her marketability is quickly evaporating. She's decided that I'm good enough because she's starting to wonder if anyone else will put up with her bullsh*t.

She actually recounted a story about her first LTR with a guy who was very similar to me (extreme AFC). She loved him very much and actually said that if they were dating today, she would marry him. She also said that they stopped f*cking for the last year of their relationship yet they stayed together.

Remember, she said SHE WOULD MARRY HIM IF THEY WERE TOGETHER TODAY.

I am his substitute.

 

[guru1000]

Lefty few questions,

- What did your GUT tell you 6 months ago?

- What does your GUT tell you now?

- Does DIVORCE go against your belief system?

- Before you married, did you believe there was even a 1% possibility of divorce?

 

[SharpGame]

I agree with a lot of what's being said here. I think you should listen to your gut, but only if you've been living a life that is inline with correct principles as a DJ should. I was living the AFC life for a looong time and I think my gut was conditioned to keep me doing what I thought was working for me at the time. It wasn't until I started ignoring my gut that all aspects of my life started improving. And that only happened after an intense amount of PAIN was inflicted upon me (divorce). I think that event opened the circuitry in my head in a way that would allow me to reprogram my thinking.

The problem I continually face now is that even though my head knows the correct behavior, my gut is still clinging to what it thinks is right. I'll have to continue to ignore my gut until I'm sure that it has caught up with my head. I believe that will only happen after it's been conditioned with enough positive experiences using the new wiring in my head.

 

[Jeffst1980]

This is a great thread, and I think everyone needs to read this stuff. I would say that one's instincts in regarding a relationship as in trouble are usually correct--but the correct remedy to counteract it requires rational thought, not instinct. Why? Because we've had experience identifying these red flags all our lives, even back in grade school when little Suzie wouldn't walk home with us. However, we aren't equipped with ANY instincts in turning these situations around...can you imagine if we did?

The problem is, although we all recognize the validity of advice to "walk away" (after all, we would likely counsel others to do the same), few of us act on it because we have no precedent for such a situation in our lives. The times that we DO walk away are the times when WE have the power and options...it's HARD AS HELL to do this when the opposite is true. Typically, we'll be so determined to prove that the situation is salvageable that we're all too ready to "give second chances" or "wait until I know for sure."

Kudos to Lefty for getting out of such an unhealthy relationship. He's definitely doing the right thing by NOT "spilling his guts" right now, and given that he stays the course and divorces her, he really should be upheld as a model of how to overcome this cognitive dissonance.

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

Sorry LEFTY, but I can't let you do this, because of this:

She's putting out but only when she's drunk. She can't bring herself to f*ck me sober, because her interest level is so low.

She stays with me because in her mind she's created this dreamworld of the big house, dog, and two kids, and the perfect obedient husband to help her realize her dreams. I was that perfectly obedient husband.

If she was younger, she would probably leave me to look for someone she could respect, but she's in her late 20's now, has put on a lot of weight, and her marketability is quickly evaporating. She's decided that I'm good enough because she's starting to wonder if anyone else will put up with her bullsh*t.

Then you posted me this:

I'm away from home a lot (military) and when I came home at Christmas, her libido seemed to take a 180 degree turn, but I believe I was fooled. You see, she wanted to start trying to have kids, and would precede each sexual act with "lets make babies!" FORTUNATELY she did not get pregnant.

While away from home yet again, we discussed having kids and I convinced her to postpone for a few more months (i.e. until this summer) much to her chagrin. While home for the last two weeks, we had sex twice and she gave me a ******* once, but each time it was when she was drunk. She never once initiated anything while sober, and I don't know if I'm being paranoid but I feel like her interest in me is still lacking. She lectured me about my relationship with my mother, basically saying I was too much of a momma's boy and I feel like she continues to try to assert her dominance over me, psychologically.

She has also openly said to me that after we have kids I should not expect sex as often as I get it right now. She is clearly setting me up so that after we have kids and I ***** about sex (not that I would, knowing what I know now) she can say "I told you so."

I'm not going to reiterate what I told you 6 months ago, you're still in deep trouble here, but the game has changed now. The only thing that could possibly make your conditions worse is for her to get pregnant by you. You can end this now, but if she succeeds in fertilizing herself with your donated sperm you will see her gloat like a pig in sh!t for the rest of your lifetime by the connection you'll always have with her through the child. Your misery will be permanent if you allow this to happen. I don't care how horny you are, I don't care how she roleplays for you, I don't care how she cries or tells you "she'll change", I don't care how you think it'll be "just this once and I'm through", do not ƒuck this woman again!

She is not your wife, she is a leech and she'll consolidate her control over you if you allow it. All it takes is one slip on your part now and you will deal with her for a lifetime. You can walk away from this now, be free from her psychosis and start on your path back to where you should be as a Man now, or you can believe her act, get her pregnant and live the rest of your life this way. What's it going to be?

 

[Mr.Positive]

Sorry LEFTY, but I can't let you do this, because of this:



Then you posted me this:



I'm not going to reiterate what I told you 6 months ago, you're still in deep trouble here, but the game has changed now. The only thing that could possibly make your conditions worse is for her to get pregnant by you. You can end this now, but if she succeeds in fertilizing herself with your donated sperm you will see her gloat like a pig in sh!t for the rest of your lifetime by the connection you'll always have with her through the child. Your misery will be permanent if you allow this to happen. I don't care how horny you are, I don't care how she roleplays for you, I don't care how she cries or tells you "she'll change", I don't care how you think it'll be "just this once and I'm through", do not ƒuck this woman again!

She is not your wife, she is a leech and she'll consolidate her control over you if you allow it. All it takes is one slip on your part now and you will deal with her for a lifetime. You can walk away from this now, be free from her psychosis and start on your path back to where you should be as a Man now, or you can believe her act, get her pregnant and live the rest of your life this way. What's it going to be?

Christmas?!? 6 months ago?

Lefty, how long have you been living this hell with this un-ruly, selfish, b1tch?

It's obvious from just the little I read that this woman sees you as a tool. She doesn't love you, you are there for her benefit and to be used to fit whatever fvcked up role she has for you in her head.

Plus, she's cheating on you to boot. Have you thought that she might get knocked up by the guy she's banging, and then, you're really fvcked. Then your saddled raising a child that's not yours.

Get away from her ASAP. Slap the divorce papers. Why are you waiting?

You are young, you have a whole wonderful life ahead of you. Start planing a great future.

 

[LeftyLoosey]

Sorry LEFTY, but I can't let you do this, because of this:

I'm not going to reiterate what I told you 6 months ago, you're still in deep trouble here, but the game has changed now. The only thing that could possibly make your conditions worse is for her to get pregnant by you. You can end this now, but if she succeeds in fertilizing herself with your donated sperm you will see her gloat like a pig in sh!t for the rest of your lifetime by the connection you'll always have with her through the child. Your misery will be permanent if you allow this to happen. I don't care how horny you are, I don't care how she roleplays for you, I don't care how she cries or tells you "she'll change", I don't care how you think it'll be "just this once and I'm through", do not ƒuck this woman again!

She is not your wife, she is a leech and she'll consolidate her control over you if you allow it. All it takes is one slip on your part now and you will deal with her for a lifetime. You can walk away from this now, be free from her psychosis and start on your path back to where you should be as a Man now, or you can believe her act, get her pregnant and live the rest of your life this way. What's it going to be?

Rollo, I admit I took huge risks by having sex with her again. I was still plugged in and did not believe the situation was completely hopeless. Fortunately my negotiations with her allowed me to convince her to have less risky sex for the time being so that I could evaluate our relationship while reducing the risk of getting her pregnant. It was a big risk to take but hopefully worth it because it finally allowed me to see the light for myself. Her period should be coming early next week and when it does, I'll be the happiest guy on the planet. Fingers are crossed.

I am away from home again so there is no way for us to have sex again. We're apart until July.

For the record, I am in 100% agreement and on board with everything you say.

 

[LeftyLoosey]

Christmas?!? 6 months ago?

Lefty, how long have you been living this hell with this un-ruly, selfish, b1tch?

Way too long. It'll be nearly 3 years in June.

It's obvious from just the little I read that this woman sees you as a tool. She doesn't love you, you are there for her benefit and to be used to fit whatever fvcked up role she has for you in her head.

Plus, she's cheating on you to boot. Have you thought that she might get knocked up by the guy she's banging, and then, you're really fvcked. Then your saddled raising a child that's not yours.

Get away from her ASAP. Slap the divorce papers. Why are you waiting?

You are young, you have a whole wonderful life ahead of you. Start planing a great future.

If she does end up being pregnant (see above post for info as to when I will know if she is or not), I will get a paternity test.

I am in the process of making the legal and financial arrangements to protect myself before I notify her of my decision. I contacted a lawyer and am following all steps that were recommended. I think I'm doing a really good job of controlling my emotions and acting like everything's normal while the paperwork is put in order.

 

[Mr.Positive]

If she does end up being pregnant (see above post for info as to when I will know if she is or not), I will get a paternity test..

That's smart, however it is still 9 months of waiting for the child to be born to find out if it's yours. What a messy situation that would be, especially if you are in the process of divorcing her. She will play the victim part, and you will be seen as the guy leaving a pregnant woman. Not good.

Be strong Lefty and stay the course. Keep posting here about and keep getting great advise from Rollo and others.

There is a bright future ahead for you, and a great life. You need to earn it though by finding strength within.

 

[LeftyLoosey]

Lefty few questions,

- What did your GUT tell you 6 months ago?

- What does your GUT tell you now?

- Does DIVORCE go against your belief system?

- Before you married, did you believe there was even a 1% possibility of divorce?

6 months ago my gut told me my wife's interest level was possibly non-existant and she was using me simply to act as a provider to fulfill her dreams of having two kids, a dog, a big house and a loyal husband. I ignored my gut by telling myself I was being paranoid and was just worried my relationship would end up similar to my father's sh1tty marriage (his second marriage). I tried to remind myself of all the good things about our relationship and to ignore the bad things.

NOW it's not even a matter of my gut. The evidence is before me. I guess you could say my gut feeling is so strong I could use it as evidence to put my wife behind bars.

Divorce used to go against my belief system. I swore to myself I wouldn't end up like my divorced parents and would wait for the perfect girl, and then do everything required to make it work. Now I know divorce is a necessity given the deception women use these days to trap men.

When I got engaged I assumed 0% chance of divorce. When I got married I hoped it was still 0%. 2 months later I tried to dump my wife but she talked me out of it and blamed me for her lack of affection.

Now there is a 100% chance of divorce.

That being said, even when I thought there was a 0% chance of divorce, my gut was still telling me something was wrong, but no convincing in the world would make me listen to it at that time. I was plugged in and the connection was secure.

 

[guru1000]

6 months ago my gut told me my wife's interest level was possibly non-existant

Your gut also told you to stay in this damaged marriage.

Divorce used to go against my belief system. I swore to myself I wouldn't end up like my divorced parents and would wait for the perfect girl, and then do everything required to make it work.

Here is the reason your gut would not allow you to walk away.

When I got engaged I assumed 0% chance of divorce. When I got married I hoped it was still 0%.

This is congruent with your NO DIVORCE belief.

That being said, even when I thought there was a 0% chance of divorce, my gut was still telling me something was wrong, but no convincing in the world would make me listen to it at that time. I was plugged in and the connection was secure

Your Gut knew there was something wrong but as well told you to stay. Your Gut is aligned with your belief of "Never Divorcing".

You must make "DIVORCE WITH REASON" a cardinal rule of your belief system. This will align your GUT with your decision and away from your Cognitive Dissonance.

 

[betterthandead]

I'm on the 'go with gut' bandwagon however there were times where maybe I should've stood back and let my brain do the working. I get in trouble but that's how it is, you learn from your mistakes.

Except for the Bush Administration. I'm sure starting a war with Afghanistan was a gut reaction but certainly not Iraq since they spent more than a year planning the invasion, but that's alright...we'll learn from mistakes as long as we don't have a Republican in power ever again. But as time goes on dumb **** Republican voters make the same mistake over and over not on the basis of gut, but on the basis of their brain to protect their rights of Christianhood to killing off people who are not supportive of the WASP society that America is.

 

[Blue Phoenix]

You nailed it!

As the recovering Nice Guy begins to do good things for himself, he will feel uncomfortable. He may actually feel frightened, anxious, guilty, or confused. These feelings are the result of what is called cognitive dissonance. When the Nice Guy does something good for himself he is doing something that implies he is valuable.

This will conflict with his deeply held belief that he is worthless. As a result, he will experience dissonance — a clashing of two competing messages. In time, one of the beliefs will win. I encourage recovering Nice Guys to keep being good to themselves, no matter how frightening. In time the core messages from childhood are replaced with new, more accurate beliefs that reflect their inherent worth.

*Robert Glover

That´s what you have to fight, that "inner message", your old patterns. Change the way you act and you your mind will follow suit.

 

[guru1000]

That´s what you have to fight, that "inner message", your old patterns. Change the way you act and you your mind will follow suit.

Quote:
As the recovering Nice Guy begins to do good things for himself, he will feel uncomfortable. He may actually feel frightened, anxious, guilty, or confused. These feelings are the result of what is called cognitive dissonance. When the Nice Guy does something good for himself he is doing something that implies he is valuable.

This will conflict with his deeply held belief that he is worthless. As a result, he will experience dissonance — a clashing of two competing messages. In time, one of the beliefs will win. I encourage recovering Nice Guys to keep being good to themselves, no matter how frightening. In time the core messages from childhood are replaced with new, more accurate beliefs that reflect their inherent worth.

*Robert Glover

Exactly.

This is the Primary reason why AFC's will continue to repeat the same mistakes.

If one were to adopt a Cardinal Belief:

"I come first, Always. My time is priceless and who I choose to spend my time with needs to be reciprocated with High IL and Incredible Rapport."

This belief will manifest itself into High Value. With this Value; your thoughts, decisions, actions and GUT will respond accordingly.

It is most important when administering a new Belief to follow through unconditionally with Tenacity and ignoring the Cognitive Dissonance. Through repeated application, this new Belief will be Enacted and congruent with your new found Gut.

Many of our behaviors are motivated by our Gut. This is the AFC TRAP.

 

[reset]

Good post guru, and I also think that passage is great. I've read that book and that passage just sort of slaps you in the face.

You do something good for yourself. Set some standards. Makes logical sense, you act, but the result is the opposite of what you expect. You accept to feel better for doing something, yet instead, you get the feeling of guilt, confusion, depression... all DIFFERENT from what you were expecting when your mind said "do this! It's the right thing!" So if I just did the right thing, why do I feel like crap?

Cognitive Dissonance. You dared to imply that you had value, that your happiness counted for something. It still happens and I get those confused feelings, sort of get out of my head and can't think straight, but now I realize what it is, two conflicting beliefs colliding.

So in this case, awareness of what is happening to you is the beginning of the path out of the AFC trap.

 

[Blue Phoenix]

There´s another concept, the self-sabotage!

Kick me or drop me

The set up: when we are feeling insecure and unlovable, we might put ourselves down and, indirectly, ask others to reject or hurt us. We might be self-critical and bore others until they leave. We might cling so tightly to our boy/girlfriend that we suffocate them and drive them away. We might be so clumsy or incompetent or insecure that we invite others to poke fun of us. It is as if we put a sign on our backs that says "Kick me." The ulterior motive: to feel bad, unloved, rejected, and/or hurt without realizing that we, as "kick me" players, intended for it to happen precisely the way it did. Indeed, most "kick me" players then proclaim their innocence by playing, "Why does this always happen to nice, little me?"

The pay offs: to avoid having others expect us to be responsible and capable, to avoid intimacy, to recreate a loss of parental love, to get sympathy and some enjoyment when we tell others our "ain't it awful" stories, to deny any responsibility for what happened, to get positive strokes when putting ourselves down (see Sooty Sarah in chapter 6) and negative strokes when we are kicked, to confirm that I'm not OK ("No one likes me") and/or that you're not OK ("You can't trust people"). Hurt feelings earn us "brown stamps" which can be cashed in for many pay offs, like a good sulk, a run-away-from-home, a fight, an affair, a lost weekend on the town, etc. The "kick me" game is self-defeating, similar to a "gallows transaction" in which a person manages to get his/her friends to laugh and give other forms of attention when he/she makes mistakes, drinks too much, shoplifts, drives dangerously, cheats on a boy/girlfriend or on an exam, etc. In this way, the misguided friends help lead the person to the gallows of self-defeat and misery.

 

[broken dreams]

beautiful!