Supplements, supplements, supplements...

[Warboss Alex]

ZMA is expensive depending where you look but just taking zinc and magnesium together gives the same effect. okay the traditional formula includes b6 as well which you can throw in if you want but I didn't see the difference with or without it.

olive oil is a food source and should be taken by the tablespoon.

 

[Omen]

No we aren't cyclists, but with every sport there comes recovery, and many factors.

Sure, throwing up big weight, and getting big is not part of a cyclists. BUT... There isn't much at all in regards to Taurine and weightlifting.

All those studies on that link that was posted, has nothing to do with what people are probably expecting it to do when you suggest it as part of a weightlifting routine. Hence why I dont take it. It is of no use in that area. I know you'll disagree, but i've dealt with supplements for YEARS, and not once has Taurine caught my eye in anyway yet with athletic performance. Regardless if it is cycling, rowing, weight-lifting, or any other sport. If it did, i'd be testing it now for a supplement.

There are like 60 references and nothing has to do with what we are talking about taking it for. There are a few with cardiovascular stuff, but that's it.

So i'm not sure the reason for suggesting it in your stack. For what purpose?

And like I stated, if it was ranked higher than creatine, you'd see those studies on that site totally different, and you would see strength, or mass, or exercise, or weight-bearing, or strenght training, or something in the abstract.

So i'm confused as to why its suggested.

1. we are not cyclists
2. we don't take 2g of taurine

how can you use this study to say that it won't work for a weightlifter at a different doseage, regardless of what it has proven for cyclists?

I'm all for data but it's like apples and oranges here as usual.

anyway, we have our collective opinions. I'll let the masses try both and decide for themselves

 

[Omen]

If you people want to give something new a try, give Beta-Alanine and Citrulline Malate a try and see how it works for you. Stack it with your creatine. Its in Purple Wraath by CL but I suggest you just by the bulk powder of the 2 along with the powdered creatine.

 

[wolf116]

So I should take my calcium in the morning. Can I take all the other supps before bed?

 

[Omen]

So I should take my calcium in the morning. Can I take all the other supps before bed?

Supplements vary on when you want or need to take them. For instance if you take caffeine at night and are trying to go to bed, it has no use. Caffeine acts quickly in the body, so you take it before you workout. Also too its half life is from 4-6hrs or around there.

So you wouldn't take 200mg at 6am then go workout at 9pm expecting the caffeine to be at its max. By then its about gone depending on exact half life.

 

[mrRuckus]

Not every supplement is merely there for straight up performance.

 

[Omen]

Not every supplement is merely there for straight up performance.

True, but at the same time there are many supplements and herbs that should be taken at certain times, with meals, without, or other various aspects. For instance absorption of certain things with others. This is why some supps are put together because of how they interact with others.

So you have to look at what you are taking and then decide. Taking everything at once before bed usually isn't always the best bet, or taking everything upon awakening.

 

[spesmilitis]

My trader joes multivit has 100mg vit c (166% daily value) and 50IU vit E (166% daily value). Do I still need concentrated vit C and E or could I just pop a few of these pills a day?

Why is Vit E needed if you're taking lots of fish oil?

 

[Warboss Alex]

Vitamin E is important for absorbing the fish oil and stopping it oxidising. 400iu for every 15g fish oil you take.

Vitamin C I recommend 1-2g daily.

Remember the daily values are sh!t

 

[Master Bates]

Taking too much vitamin E can be bad for you. From what I've read, I don't know if I'd want to take 400iu every day indefinitely.

 

[Warboss Alex]

Oh gawd, not another "Too much xxx is bad for you"*.

I've done 800iu (in fact I believe that was Di Pasquale's recommendation anyway even without taking into account a high dose fish oil) for a while now and I've yet to die. I've also done 10g vitamin C in a day for an extended period (people are gonna scream Vit C overdose) and the only sideeffect I had was feeling great and never getting sick.

Something everyone needs to get into their heads - we are weight trainers. Certain physiological rules do not apply to us, especially the need for micronutrients.

Give a sedentary grandma 10-15g of taurine, 800iu Vit E and 10g Vit C a day and she might have problems. But it is a whole different playing field for weight trainers.

*By the way, I do not mean by that, that too much porn is bad for you..

 

[Omen]

My trader joes multivit has 100mg vit c (166% daily value) and 50IU vit E (166% daily value). Do I still need concentrated vit C and E or could I just pop a few of these pills a day?

Why is Vit E needed if you're taking lots of fish oil?

You may see that in your fish oil for that reason. So it doesn't oxidize. Even in microencapsulation they will add some E, and even Rosemary oil to protect it. Some add other ingredients as well. Just depends on what companies choose.

This is why if you've ever seen a packet of pure fish powder (microencaps) probably haven't, but it says to nitrogen purge after each use. This means every time you open it, then use it, you should purge it then close it. NP basically sucks out the oxygen in the pouch.

I've seen this just because of supplement formulation.

 

[Omen]

Oh gawd, not another "Too much xxx is bad for you"*.

I've done 800iu (in fact I believe that was Di Pasquale's recommendation anyway even without taking into account a high dose fish oil) for a while now and I've yet to die. I've also done 10g vitamin C in a day for an extended period (people are gonna scream Vit C overdose) and the only sideeffect I had was feeling great and never getting sick.

Something everyone needs to get into their heads - we are weight trainers. Certain physiological rules do not apply to us, especially the need for micronutrients.

Give a sedentary grandma 10-15g of taurine, 800iu Vit E and 10g Vit C a day and she might have problems. But it is a whole different playing field for weight trainers.

*By the way, I do not mean by that, that too much porn is bad for you..

This is where you have to be careful. JUST because something is a vitamin or supplement doesn't mean they are all safe at large amounts. We know this, and there are facts on this.

While correct we are weight trainers, you cant say that certain physiological rules do not apply to us. We are human just like everyone else.

We breath oxygen and transport oxygen just like everyone else
The body runs it course of glycolysis just like everyone else.
Fat, Carbs, Protein, are all digested by the same enzymes as everyone else
The PCr system, ATP, all of that jazz is the same and works the same as it does for my grandma as it does for all of us.

Yes, our bodies get torn apart more than the average joe, so we supplement with things a little more. Do we need to over-do it? Not by all means.

What I think people fail to realize in the wonderful world of nutrients, is that if you dont use them, YOU WASTE THEM. Unless you have some chronic disease and need to be mega-dosing everything under the sun, it wont do a darn bit for anything.

I mean, you know, as do I, that regardless if you lift or not, vit and things CAN be toxic and CAN cause problems in people. I've seen walking proof of it before, and there is proof out there period. We know it and dont need to argue it.

Truth be told, the sad thing is that too many people believe that just cause they lift, they have to go crazy on stuff and that it does wonders beyond belief. I'll tell you what really happens. Most people are excreting everything they ingest in those high amounts.

For a second, think about the intake for C. Lets say you decide to go crazy and ONLY mega-dose vit C and you are going to do it all the time. Not short term, but all of the time. Do you think people take into consideration of a nutrient balance? What about vit C Antagonists? Copper is a huge one.

This is why a megadose of anything is usually supported by many clinical reasons.

And we aren't even talking about a weightlifter that could be on some type of medication. So if we were to tell people on here to megadose on certain things, and they are on a certain med.... We just FVKED them up cause they took our advice.

You have a person who is hypoglycemic and they dont tell you, and they take 10g of vit C cause they were told to here, you're going to mess them up cause of the greater insulin production.

Assume for a second we take 500mg of Vit C which is 833% of the DV so we are already over the 100% DV and we dont take into account foods we eat. Glass of OJ, fruits, veggies, etc etc. So that's in our multi.

So... 833 x 2= 1,666% you take that x 10g and you've got a whopping 16,660% of the DV.

So what your doing here is starting at 100% and saying ok, that's just suggested for general health. Lets take that x5 for the fun of it cause we are weight lifters, or for performance athletes. That's 500% of the RDA. So i'm saying the RDA doesn't know crap about athletes so I raised it x5 to compensate for the extra crap we put ourselves through. If you want, jack it up to one gram and make it 1,660% for optimum levels.

So what people are saying is that because we are performance athletes, that we need 16,660% of the DV? Even half that is insane unless you are talking therapeutic again which is >5,000mg I mean, we lift weights, we dont have cancer or some chronic disease.

This is what people need to see. Are you probably wasting most stuff you take in megadoses? Absolutely. And again, when people are suggesting megadoses, your suggesting therapeutic doses to people that CAN be harful if you're not careful.

Again, people need to realize we aren't Gods cause we lift, and that we aren't that much more special than other people, and we sure as hell dont need 16,660% of something on a daily basis. And if you do, its for a disease study, under supervision, and probably intravenously.

Again, all of this is my opinion, but there are reasons I wont suggest megadoses of stuff on this board, or to anyone. I dont want to mess someone up cause they never mentioned insulin problems and I screwed them up by saying you are fine taking 10g of C.

 

[spesmilitis]

^^^^^^

If a certain dosage is giving you awesome health benefits, I doubt that dosage is at a toxic level.

 

[Omen]

^^^^^^

If a certain dosage is giving you awesome health benefits, I doubt that dosage is at a toxic level.

Not necessarily true because not everything is sudden. Take a few grams of caffeine and your dead because its utilized very quickly. Some things take time to build up, and the thing that happens is that megadosing can screw other nutrients up, and just by looking in the mirror, you might not see it. Take the copper example. Do you think right away you are going to see it? No, but the body knows it, and its happening. Will it happen to you? I cant say. Will the hypoglycemic problem happen to you? I cant tell.

I had a girlfriend once who was hypoglycemic, and lets say she worked out like I did. If I had suggested to take 10g of Vit C because a megadose of C is good, I would have messed her up and my ass would have been in trouble, or I would have felt bad if I put her in the hospital.

Like I said, unless its a therapeutic reason, there is absolutely no reason to megadose stuff. And when some are, like B12, its injected. I laugh at people who take megadoses of B12 orally and dont get it. Not only that, other nutrients orally at megadoses. I can see taking some things for a short period of time for certain reasons, but there is no reason to take a megadose of anything long term. All you are doing is either wasting it whether fat or water soluble, or doing your body more harm than good because of so many nutrient imbalances. Some nutrients absorb the heck out of others, and now you are deficient in something else because you megadosed something all the time, and the body is out of whack, and your multi isn't cutting it anymore.

A vitamin, mineral, or supplement can STILL be harmful just like aspirin or any prescription drug. Just because the FDA doesn't step in, and you can buy it without a Dr prescribing it, doesn't mean its a free for all.

Megadosing is done for short periods of time, and not extended lengths and there is a reason for all of this.

Again, if people on here want to suggest megadoses of what ever, so be it, its a free country and free board. All I am saying is that I will not suggest anything in a megadose to anyone. I dont want that on my shoulders if someone takes my terrible advice, and comes back and says... So and so said to megadose X deal or supplement and nutrient and that I should take 20g of X and I was in the hospital. They did blood work and found out why.

We are not all the same except for we all exercise. So many people, so many problems, so many meds, etc etc. Suggesting a vitamin that could thin blood in large doses to someone already on a blood thinner is asking for trouble.

People here wont be revealing too much personal information, and we need to be cautious, that's all i'm saying.

If I was to take some certain advice on here related to some of this supplement/Nutrient advice, I might be in for a problem. But i'm not a rookie at this and this is what I do, so I know what advice is good, and what advice should not be given. You also have to remember we also have many young people on here.

 

[spesmilitis]

^^^^
Didn't really answer my question. Seemed like you were getting to it in the first few sentences, but then you kinda rambled on.

 

[Omen]

^^^^
Didn't really answer my question. Seemed like you were getting to it in the first few sentences, but then you kinda rambled on.

Ok, then think of it this way. You take in 1g Vit C and lets say that it actually does something. I dont know what you are after, but pick something. So its working correct? Now add an extra 9g to it. Is it still working? Sure its still working as far as the 1g is concerned, but what about the excess?

Lets not even worry about the placebo effect either. Do you know how many people you could give sugar pills, and tell them they were taking as much b12 as they were to get in an injection, and you know how many would tell you that they felt so much better? I bet you MANY.

Again, some things take time to build up, so you may still feel great day in and day out, but slowly things are happening that you dont see.

Vitamin C being water soluble is not stored in the body, but for some people, greater than 2g or so can cause stomach problems as well as diarrhea. Now that's not even a megadose. Rebound scurvy can happen with an abrupt stop after megadoses. 2g is usually a tolerable amount for most healthy people.

Again, this is only C. Not as toxic as other nutrients, but forget the toxicity level for a second.

Think about your car. You fill it up with gas, and it goes right? If you keep filling the tank up, what happens? OVERFLOW and its all being wasted.

Being a soluble vitamin, more than likely everything is getting excreted, and it would be rare for toxicity, BUT when you megadose so much of something, your not getting rid of it quick enough. There are some people who claim to take 25g of C.

In addition, large doses of vitamin C (2 grams per day, but sometimes much less) trigger oxalate formation and increase absorption of dietary oxalate, possibly causing kidney stones.

Massey LK, Liebman M, Kynast-Gales SA (2005). "Ascorbate increases human oxaluria and kidney stone risk". J. Nutr. 135 (7): 1673-7.

Again, short periods of time, I doubt you'll get toxic levels, and more than anything you'll piss it out, but for long term use of something, and well beyond even tolerable amounts is what becomes a problem. The upper intake was 2g per day. I see no problem in that.

The LD50 for C is about 11,900mg/kg of bodyweight. So it would take a lot to kill you, or at least 50% of the population. That's in rats though, but I bet we could apply it to humans.

At 150lbs you'd have to take about 811g at one time to give you a 50% chance of death. :nervous:

That would be quite a few bottles.

 

[spesmilitis]

^^^^^

"Ok, then think of it this way. You take in 1g Vit C and lets say that it actually does something. I dont know what you are after, but pick something. So its working correct? Now add an extra 9g to it. Is it still working? Sure its still working as far as the 1g is concerned, but what about the excess?"

I was talking benefits you see at a particular dosage, not a dosage beyond a particular benefit.

 

[Omen]

^^^^^

"Ok, then think of it this way. You take in 1g Vit C and lets say that it actually does something. I dont know what you are after, but pick something. So its working correct? Now add an extra 9g to it. Is it still working? Sure its still working as far as the 1g is concerned, but what about the excess?"

I was talking benefits you see at a particular dosage, not a dosage beyond a particular benefit.

For this you have to look at studies done for each particular problem. Most everything falls in the range of up to 2g, and some a little more.

For instance on B12, it HAS to be injected to give people energy. This is because of absorption.

The point in the post is the megadose of of an item, and that if you are going to do that, you have to have a reason. Just...making me feel better is not a valid reason for megadosing. If you have a disease and are doing it under medical supervision then ok.

Cold season will be upon us and you'll have people go and take 20g of C and you know that it wont do them any good. They THINK it will keep them from getting a cold, but the fact is, its probably the fact they are taking it period. Not to mention there are many other items for the cold season.

Like I said, your biggest problem is your imbalance. Again, if you or anyone chooses to megadose, I wont stop them, but next time people take a piss, they should look at their urine. Water soluble vitamins are what you see in the toilet. Fat soluble, you wont see. Those build up and can get toxic more easily. I have my reasons I dont megadose, and I am in top shape. I have no need to dose anything that high.

 

[Drum&Bass]

brilliant posts Omen.

I have to wonder why there are so many people spending so much money on supps ?? why is there a big rush to put on muscle quicker than normal ??

for all the hundreds of dollars being spent there won't be that much of a difference in growth, appearance or performance.

People can be strong and healthy without having to spend hundreds of dollars. Sure world class bodybuilders, pro powerlifters and sports nutrition specialists may recommend those things, but are any of you planning on becoming pro athletes and using your fitness to start a career ? or are you involved in fitness to be healthy and reap the benefits in your later years.

then again in order to keep the commercial side of fitness going there needs to be suckers who are willing to foolishly pay all there money for items considered to be "essential for growth"..