Struggling with women's inability to keep their word

[Atom Smasher]

All right, guys, help me out here.

I'm realizing that all my life I've struggled with the fact that I couldn't find a woman who could keep her word and act upon principle as opposed to whim.

Now I realize that I was expecting women to think and behave with the same moral consistency of men. I am being reminded, with my new girlfriend, that women seem to be utterly incapable of living by principle and that they are slaves to vacilating emotion.

But I can't get around tha fact that it pisses me off. Why is it so hard for a woman to say, "I believe this, therefore I will behave consistent with this belief". We can say that women are emotional creatures and therefore make excuses for them, but is it really right to do that? A few decades ago it seems that women were indeed capable of this to a fairly high degree. Aren't we contributing to the problem of the entitlement mentality by excusing them and not holding them to their word?

The odd thing is that my 3 sisters all seem to be able to live by principal to a degree, and they can certainly hold fairly logical conversations.

But the women I meet out in the field seem to be full of emotional turmoil and they change like the wind. It's just impossible for me to respect that. I try to overlook it but so far I haven't been able to. The girl I'm seeing (and training) now is great, but I see how her feelings change like the wind (so far, her feelings have only deepened for me). But I have caught her not keeping her word several times, and I have been having to teach her that it is important that we keep our word. I feel like a kindergarten teacher, because that's when this stuff is usually covered.

I also see a real tendency toward indecisiveness and frequent changes of opinion. And she is, by far, more intelligent that any other woman I know.

So how do you MATURE men (hint) resolve this in your own minds? How does one maintain respect for a person who simply cannot keep her word consistently nor make a solid stand on any given issue? This girl is very femminine but with a touch of aggressiveness, and I wonder if this is common only in her type, and if that is simply the type that I attract.

I'm writing this at 4 a.m. so I'll probably look at this in the morning and feel that I articulated this poorly, but hopefully I've said enough here to get some interesting insight into the phenomenon.

In a nutshell, I'm having difficulty respecting women because of their vacillating opinions and seeming inability to live by principal. It seems wrong to simply write it off with "That's just the way they are" because it seems that an attitude like that gives them free license to live without accountability. I seem to have a simplistic idea that we should all live with accountability.

I'm just looking for opinions and ideas which might help me to create a philosophy on the subject so that it doesn't drive me nuts. So far I haven't been able to do that.

To the little kiddies out there who are apt to scream, "Misogynist!", save it. I'm looking for mature discussion so that I can address the issue and handle it.

 

[Desdinova]

Why is it so hard for a woman to say, "I believe this, therefore I will behave consistent with this belief".

A woman's emotional drive is much stronger than her logic. She'll do what feels good to her, but she'll tell people what they want to hear to prevent them from judging her (making her feel bad) and/or to prevent others from feeling bad (which in turn makes her feel bad).

We can say that women are emotional creatures and therefore make excuses for them, but is it really right to do that?

It's not about making excuses for them. It's just how things work. It's like complaining about how dogs will piss on car tires. It's not about the irresponsibility of the dog, it's that dogs like to piss on things to mark their territory. You can't change natural instinct.

A few decades ago it seems that women were indeed capable of this to a fairly high degree.

Before women's rights activists made the effort to change things, women were to behave as society dictated to them. They were responsible for the cleaning, cooking, child raising. If they didn't do this, they felt bad. It's how they were raised with these beliefs and had them enforced by society. To not cook and clean would be embarrassing much like it would be to walk around out in public naked. Now women are raised to be 'independent women' so they have the freedom to follow what their emotions tell them, and society encourages it.

Aren't we contributing to the problem of the entitlement mentality by excusing them and not holding them to their word?

Again, you can't change their natural instinct.

The odd thing is that my 3 sisters all seem to be able to live by principal to a degree, and they can certainly hold fairly logical conversations.

All women can hold logical conversations, but if you get their emotions going crazy, the logic goes out the window.

So how do you MATURE men (hint) resolve this in your own minds? How does one maintain respect for a person who simply cannot keep her word consistently nor make a solid stand on any given issue?

I think it all depends on what kind of state she's in when she's lying. If she's all flustered and pissed off, she's not going to make any sense and I know that. If she's calm and even happy, she shouldn't have the need to make herself feel better with lies. Judge her honesty when she's in a good mood. If she DOES need to validate herself when she's in a good mood, she's got some deep-rooted issues and should be NEXTed ASAP.

 

[countermart]

Prof Higgins – My Fair Lady – Why Can’t a woman be more like a man (1964)

“Why can't a woman be more like a man?
Men are so honest, so thoroughly square;
Eternally noble, historically fair.
Who, when you win, will always give your back a pat.
Why can't a woman be like that?

Why does everyone do what the others do?
Can't a woman learn to use her head?
Why do they do everything their mothers do?
Why don't they grow up, well, like their father instead?

Why is thinking something women never do?
And why is logic never even tried?
Straightening up their hair is all they ever do.
Why don't they straighten up the mess that's inside?

Why can't a woman behave like a man?
If I was a woman who'd been to a ball,
Been hailed as a princess by one and by all;
Would I start weeping like a bathtub overflowing,
Or carry on as if my home were in a tree?
Would I run off and never tell me where I'm going?
Why can't a woman be like me?”

The answer to your question is because they are women. They have always been like this, at least the majority of them have, slaves to emotion. It’s actually of assistance at times.

So how do you live with this? Well you have to lead and go your own way, and not get trapped in a marriage with one of them, because it’s the equivalent of putting all your money in an option position, with serious time value erosion, limited upside and major downside, you have to live for yourself, and not make women the centre of your life. You have to be in control. You have to not put up with their crap, and you have to be prepared to walk away at all times. You have to take what she says with a grain of salt and only watch what she does. Think “that is what you absolutely say and believe in this moment”. Understand that this has nothing at all to do with what may happen in a future moment. You have to be stronger than her. Really when you look at the above para you realize that these are just the things necessary to be a DJ.

Also, it helps to have very low expectations in regard to women and then just maybe you will occasionally be surprised.

Of course this has never happened to me……but maybe, just maybe as the first rays of sunshine reflect gossamer threads, and red, dew kissed rose petals shine in the morning light, there will come a woman that surprises.

A woman of beauty, femininity and nobility…..Ah but alas, they have only ever been found by Walt Disney.

You will not change them. You may have to change yourself.

Countermart

 

[boomerick]

OP

Desti and counter nailed it.....

No matter what we have been conditioned to beleive the truth is......... they are not "us with different genitals"......

They are not equil to us.....

They are not less....BUT......they are VERY different mentally......

It helps to lower your expectations.......

WAY LOWER........

Like say for example no matter what their age .......

Treat them like 6 year olds......

As sexist as that may sound......

IT WORKS !!!

Over and Out.

 

[st_99]

lower your expectations.......


Treat them like 6 year olds......

yes and yes.

I didn't want it to be this way but its the only viable option.

 

[The Duke]

Atom Smasher- I have had the same thoughts & frustrations as you. I just have to tell myself: Enjoy them for the wonderful things they do have to offer(like their beauty-thats why you find a hot one). ;-) Seriously what would man need a woman for if they weren't nice to look at?

Always believe their actions not their words. When they start talking crazy, quit listening. If your head was as f'ed up as a womans you would say all sorts of schitt too! It always amazes me how many women are on anti-depression and sleeping meds.

Oh and thinking your sisters were good women.........haha.....I thought that about mine too until I spent a weekend observing their dating behaviors. I was disgusted. They are all attention whhores stringing along as many guys as they can to suit their every mood dependent upon which way the wind blows.

Yes treat them like little girls, thats what they are.

You don't have to convince me who is superior and why God is a man. Its a mans world and always will be no matter how hard the feminists push their agenda.

 

[Atom Smasher]

I think you guys are all correct, for the most part. Lots of good information here.

I'll be meditating and chewing on everything you all wrote. I was actually thinking lately that they have to be treated like 6 year olds. I can't believe I went through more than 50 years thinking that I could find a woman with a capacity to keep her word and live by principle. AFC all the way.

I guess that's why men rarely use the words "woman" and "respect" in the same sentence, unless they are referring to her respect for him.

Thanks for helping me out, guys. I'll as I said I'll be chewing on your insights today. I need to put this to rest because I know I carry resentment with me and I really want to clear that up.

It is true that with my present girl, the more I treat her like a child, the better things go all the way around. Just like ST 99, I dislkine that things are this way, but it truly does seem to be the only viable option.

Well, it's an interesting learning experience. Thanks, men.

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Y9BukEBI9c

"How do you write women so well?"

"I think of a man, and I take away reason and accountability."

 

[Franky Four Fingers]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Y9BukEBI9c

"How do you write women so well?"

"I think of a man, and I take away reason and accountability."

I saw that video before. It is perfect summation in one simple sentence.

 

[Franky Four Fingers]

Now women are raised to be 'independent women' so they have the freedom to follow what their emotions tell them, and society encourages it.

I used to lean in the direction of woman should have the same rights and privileges as men. Why not I said to myself their human with wants, desires and needs just like men.

How naive I was back then.

The problem with that thinking is 1. Women are emotional. and 2. Power corrupts.

I used to live in a different state where this guy would keep his woman "under his thumb" so to speak. If she spoke up in independence he would bring her back down verbally. He never let her get control of the finances ever. He would "play games" to keep her in her place to keep him in charge.

Back then I thought he was wrong and controlling. Back then I felt bad for the woman. Now not so much. I realized if you give a woman her independence completely they (most of them anyway) will take advantage of it. They will get the 'I don't need him' mentality and start disrespecting a man.

This is why in many other countries you will not see this mentality in women because they don't accept it there. Sad to say but woman are more humble there and respectful.

 

[squirrels]

I used to lean in the direction of woman should have the same rights and privileges as men. Why not I said to myself their human with wants, desires and needs just like men.

How naive I was back then.

The problem with that thinking is 1. Women are emotional. and 2. Power corrupts.

I used to live in a different state where this guy would keep his woman "under his thumb" so to speak. If she spoke up in independence he would bring her back down verbally. He never let her get control of the finances ever. He would "play games" to keep her in her place to keep him in charge.

Back then I thought he was wrong and controlling. Back then I felt bad for the woman. Now not so much. I realized if you give a woman her independence completely they (most of them anyway) will take advantage of it. They will get the 'I don't need him' mentality and start disrespecting a man.

This is why in many other countries you will not see this mentality in women because they don't accept it there. Sad to say but woman are more humble there and respectful.

This is one of the reasons I hope America NEVER sees a woman-president. Not because I "hate women", but because I don't TRUST them, especially in a position where reason and dignity are paramount.

When women weren't expected to be equal to men in society, we let them get away with the emotional, irrational, unpredictable behavior because, after all, they were "just women".

I think it's in line with the gender evolution for the women to behave this way. They just seem more natural when they act in an irrational, emotional, NON-dominant manner.

The thing is when they started to demand "equal rights", they shunned "equal responsibility". Despite being able to do everything that men can do, they didn't want to give up the advantage of irrational behavior and thus become accountable for what they DID with those rights.

I think women ARE capable of rational behavior, but it doesn't BECOME them, and society doesn't seem interested in EXPECTING it of them.

It all comes back around to the tireless maxim, "people are stupid".

 

[Atom Smasher]

Atom Smasher's formula:

"Quality of character is inversely proportional to physical beauty".

 

[jtlancer]

Was out with social circle last night. Just chilling. Girls starts
gaming me hard. Then I learn the boyfriend is like 5 feet away
and watching everything! WTF? Really strong kino from her,
including 'accidental' leg brushes (man you can learn alot from
these horny beatches). Later we are all walking back to our
cars and she's like "I should really get your number to - insert
lame excuse here'" I ignored it.

Damn red pill! Just trying to have an interesting conversation, not
even remotely interested in this girl - I feel bad for the guy.
It just seems in their nature though.

 

[Jeffst1980]

Atom Smasher- here's the way I view it:

The male value sphere upholds things as integrity, reason, honesty, etc. as its defining principles.

The female value sphere upholds emotion, empathy, and social skills.

As men, we think the stuff we value is more "principled," and as such, we have developed our idea of morality around this stuff. This is why women frustrate us--they don't follow the same "code."

There is no a priori reason that reason is BETTER than emotion--both are necessarily for our species' survival, which depends on the natural antagonism of the sexes. We look at women and think they are silly for gossiping about one another; they look at us and think we're silly for coming up with so many rules for everything (women would think this site is hilarious, for instance). Neither point of view is correct.

Now, about women having empathy--some guys see women do underhanded things--cheating and whatnot--and conclude that women are cold, unfeeling creatures. This isn't true--women naturally feel a great deal of empathy. If a girl cheats on you, she DOES feel bad, and genuinely doesn't want to hurt you. But--she will do it anyway if all the necessary conditions are met, because biological needs trump those things. We see this as an example of contradictory behavior consistent with a weak moral code ("if she loves me but doesn't want to hurt me, why did she cheat??"), but such a non dualism makes total sense to many women. Logic and morality are both integral to the success of a society on a LARGE scale; when it comes to relationships, however, the rules change. You can't be "nice" to a women and expect her to reciprocate blindly--you have to keep her emotionally invested in you.

The good news is that there are shades of gray on this. Lots of women behave in a more logical manner than many guys. Lots of women have a stronger moral code than many guys. On the flipside, some dudes have no moral character or integrity and allow emotions to guide them completely. Everyone is different on the level of the individual, which is why we filter out girls with poor moral character. At the same time, you can't change biology, so expecting women to be (as another poster put it brilliantly) "like us with different genitals" is a losing proposition.

 

[Colossus]

I have to agree with Jeff here.

I often have the same thoughts, Atom Smasher, that they behave in such contradictory ways and why cant they act according to MY ethical and rational code??

Well, that's not much different than expecting a dog to behave like a cat. Some dogs may act more like cats, and some cats may act more like dogs, but that doesn't mean that cats are dogs, or can be dogs.

There is undoubtedly a group of women right now having a similar conversation: "why cant men just act like THIS?!?!" And we would reply, 'because we arent women!"

 

[jophil28]

I'm realizing that all my life I've struggled with the fact that I couldn't find a woman who could keep her word and act upon principle as opposed to whim.

Now I realize that I was expecting women to think and behave with the same moral consistency of men. I am being reminded, with my new girlfriend, that women seem to be utterly incapable of living by principle and that they are slaves to vacilating emotion.

I was tossing around the idea of writing a tome, but changed my mind in favor of a short piece.
Atom S, you and I share many similar beliefs . We are both purists in many ways, and as such we will be frequently disappointed by people and their actions (women in particular) who do not live by principles and moral and ethical understandings.

Ultimately the questions are these - are women capable of acting and behaving according to a set of external rules and guidelines . Are they rational enough to understand the consequences of every action ?
Secondly are they wiiling to regulate their own behavior to avoid the consequences of recalcitrant behavior ?
Rather than debate my position on this, I would point out that most of them have careers and jobs which impose expectations, rules and restrictions on their behavior, and behold, they seem to comply with those quite readily.

 

[JD57]

I'm new to dating after 20+ of marriage, but I've experienced my fill of high interest one day and little the next, ignoring me - but not completely, lies and BS. If you want to dump me, just say it. I think it's learned behavior and, if there is no penalty, it won't change. I have no penalty to suggest....whining, ideas of "closure", etc. are just weak and are probably what she wants.
Now admittedly I remain jaded after being dumped for a broke 22 year old (by a broke 34 year old) ...and have a bad case of "one-itis" as she's the only hot girl to pay attention to me in ages.
But still...HONESTY - it's an universal, inter-gender value.

 

[Bible_Belt]

"Quality of character is inversely proportional to physical beauty".

So is d!ck-sucking ability. Women who try harder do so because they have to.

 

[Nutz]

But the women I meet out in the field seem to be full of emotional turmoil and they change like the wind. It's just impossible for me to respect that. I try to overlook it but so far I haven't been able to. The girl I'm seeing (and training) now is great, but I see how her feelings change like the wind (so far, her feelings have only deepened for me). But I have caught her not keeping her word several times, and I have been having to teach her that it is important that we keep our word. I feel like a kindergarten teacher, because that's when this stuff is usually covered.

Qualification and force-framing will solve a lot of that. An example:

"I like how you keep your word and have principles. Between you and me a lot of women these days are really poor relationship material because they can't honor their promises. I'm glad you're not like that."

It's kludgey a bit because I'm trying to give an example that tracks to what you need to do, but I think you get the point. You qualify them for meeting your standards, then disqualify others for a specific reason that you dislike. This will cause them, for a short period anyway, to rise up to your standards and be wary of falling out of favor.

 

[Atom Smasher]

I was tossing around the idea of writing a tome, but changed my mind in favor of a short piece.
Atom S, you and I share many similar beliefs . We are both purists in many ways, and as such we will be frequently disappointed by people and their actions (women in particular) who do not live by principles and moral and ethical understandings.

Ultimately the questions are these - are women capable of acting and behaving according to a set of external rules and guidelines . Are they rational enough to understand the consequences of every action ?
Secondly are they wiiling to regulate their own behavior to avoid the consequences of recalcitrant behavior ?
Rather than debate my position on this, I would point out that most of them have careers and jobs which impose expectations, rules and restrictions on their behavior, and behold, they seem to comply with those quite readily.

Jophil, I would have preferred a tome, for I learn a lot when you're a-tomin'.

You hit the nail on the head, I do struggle with women (and rare men) who don't conduct themselves by principals and moral and ethical understandings. I'm realizing that this struggle is more serious than I thought, and it could cause me to unecessarily sink my current relationship. I haven't gotten close to that yet, but I see the potential. That's why I'm trying to figure out how to deal with it internally without violating my own moral principals and expectations of others.

It is VERY difficult for me to say, "That's just how they are" and give them a free pass, especially because they were much more prone to exhibit rational behavior when I was younger, twenty to thirty years ago. For you younger guys, this has to be completely impossible for you to conceive of because all you've ever known is the way women are now.

I need to learn to lighten up to a degree while still adhering to my principles and expectations, and I realize that I am a complete newborn when it comes to learning this aspect of relationships. That is why I'm so troubled by it and have very little insight as to how to resolve it. But this thread is definitely helping me to put things in perspective.

You are of course right... When it suits them, women can indeed comply with rules and restrictions in the workplace, although we all know they are still a powderkeg in need of only a small spark even in the workplace. Hence men's usual pattern of tip-toeing around them in the workplace. But that all seems to go out the window in a personal relationship.

I do like the ultra-feminine (but not stupid) types, and it is true that my type tends to be ULTRA emotion-motivated, although I understand that all girls are. My current girl is an interesting mix of ultra-intelligence and ultra- femininity, and that intelligence does little to mitigate the emotional storms swirling around in there.

I certainly have my work cut out for me but it's good to know you guys have my back.