Something I don't understand/Why is trying too hard a turnoff?

[Joe The Homophobe]

Women don't find persistence a turn off but neediness is. Neediness is different from persistence. As long as u r persistent but don't act needy, it's going to be ok.

women don't know what persistence is. To a woman it means neediness. If you show persistence to them you are showing neediness. Better not to try it and just behave like you don't give a darn!

Imagine you initially had some attraction to a girl. You thought she was cute and that you could eventually date her. You go out for coffee and think she's alright, you could see her again in 3-4 days.

She phones you the next day, says "I really really liked you, maybe we can go to dinner again tomorrow if you're not too busy." You go to dinner, you don't the same spark again. Then she phones you that night "I really really like you, do you want to do a movie tomorrow?" Then she starts phoning you 2-3 times a day. Then she gives in to do anything you want. Then you realize she has no friends to hang out with, no job, no life except being with you. Then you realize she cannot find another guy if her life depended on it and will not be able to have sex with anyone unless she asks for sex from you. Then she tells you you cannot leave her and she loves you to the end of time and she is frustrated you are have not realized what a great "catch" see is and it turns to a bit of stalking on her end.

Would that turn you on?

THIS DOES NOT APPLY TO GUYS! most guys would have their wish come true if they could have a female stalker (for most just having a female) we don't care if they don't have friends, social status, job etc etc. All we want is someone that is attractive to us for the obvious reasons (sex, having a girlfriend etc)

Independence is a masculine trait. Women don't want needy guys because they see it as unmasculine. Guys on the other hand actually want a girl that is needy to them because it empowers the man. He is the leader, he feels powerful as he is wanted bad by a woman. Women want to be led by men but most men are wussies and afcs who have been brought up with the matrix belief that relationships should be "equal."

Cliff Notes: Women don't want the role of a leader they want to follow a strong man that is independent and masculine. Needyness puts the other person in the lead and if you are needy you are not in the lead, women will lose interest.

 

[The Deacon]

We haven't defined "trying too hard" yet.

The thing is, if you have the right frame, you can do whatever the hell you want. You can hit on the girl like you're Pepe Le Peu for goodness sake, but you have to do it without being approval-seeking. If you're doing it and she can subconsciously sense that your spirits are going to be crushed if she rejects you, she's not going to reciprocate your advances.

I like to focus more on body language and tonality than the words actually said. The reason is that your body language betrays exactly what you're thinking (unless you can successfully micromanage it). I see a lot of guys who will get a little cuddly with a girl, she'll reciprocate for a little bit, and when she pulls away they look like deer caught in the headlights. They think they lost the girl, but in reality they really are just being involved in a push-pull dynamic.

The key to the right frame is body language, tonality, and sometimes a quick wit. If you have these three things down, you can "try too hard" without "not trying too hard," if that makes any sense.

 

[Squiggly Sponge]

"Desire in the absence of belief is neediness." - Swinggcat

Awesome phrase which helps differentiate between neediness and persistence. Neediness really seems like a product of fatalistic thinking merged with a lack of confidence. All relationships will eventually come to an end, a needy person handles this realisation by clutching it even tighter, rather than enjoying the time he has.

Maybe the belief that Swinggcat is referring to is the belief that you can handle losing the girl, rather than the belief you can actually get the girl?

 

[schttrj]

ok, persistance works where u have instant upper value than hers, then it will work but when apparently, u r of her level, then persistance is creeps her out. I dont know if I had been clear enough or not, but thats how it is. Any superb looking hunk or a wealthy millionaire persisting on a average looking gal or a not so wealthy girl, will definitely win her by persisting because u have to show that u r attainable to her.

when u r apparently of her level in looks wise or money wise or anything, u should nt persist since that lowers ur value to her.

 

[Maeisgood]

Attractive women are approached by men in some way all of the time. They can have sex whenever they choose. Males court, females choose in all species. They are bored and want challenge. Be the guy in the romance novels.

 

[cloneofstenyhoyer]

Capitalism has also made i worse by erasing the old social construct that influenced male female dating dynamics... Now we all compete with each other for the same jobs and money so they dont really need us that much anymore... They see it as being liberated.. or independent... and away want their need to make an effort to maintain relationships..

I wouldn't say it was "capitalism" at fault per say - but rather the late phase of capitalism that we are in dubbed "consumer" capitalism in which, since we have an over supply of our necessary goods - marketers step in and try to sell us things we don't need (video games, a five blade razor). They do this by making us feel inadequate and incomplete unless we have x product or y product. Original capitalism was just about free markets supplying NEEDED goods (food, clothing, weapons,) between nations.

 

[cloneofstenyhoyer]

women have become unhappy and spoiled due to having SO many choices. Men are viewed as just another product.

 

[slaog]

women don't know what persistence is. To a woman it means neediness. If you show persistence to them you are showing neediness. Better not to try it and just behave like you don't give a darn!

I agree with Joe. Why would you need to persist after a woman???? Why? Either there is something there or there isn't.

Wheather or not you are needy or persistant doesn't matter. From her point of view she sees a man(AFC) spending alot of time and effort trying to hook up with her.

THIS DOES NOT APPLY TO GUYS! most guys would have their wish come true if they could have a female stalker (for most just having a female) we don't care if they don't have friends, social status, job etc etc. All we want is someone that is attractive to us for the obvious reasons (sex, having a girlfriend etc)

Independence is a masculine trait. Women don't want needy guys because they see it as unmasculine. Guys on the other hand actually want a girl that is needy to them because it empowers the man. He is the leader, he feels powerful as he is wanted bad by a woman. Women want to be led by men but most men are wussies and afcs who have been brought up with the matrix belief that relationships should be "equal."

True again.

The main reason most men have problems trying to attract women is because they think women think the same way as men.

 

[Jitterbug]

women don't know what persistence is. To a woman it means neediness. If you show persistence to them you are showing neediness. Better not to try it and just behave like you don't give a darn!

Women do, if YOU do know the difference and can demonstrate that.

THIS DOES NOT APPLY TO GUYS! most guys would have their wish come true if they could have a female stalker (for most just having a female) we don't care if they don't have friends, social status, job etc etc. All we want is someone that is attractive to us for the obvious reasons (sex, having a girlfriend etc)

You don't know what you're talking about. It's obvious that you have never had a stalker nor a needy GF. I've had both and I know guys who have. I can guarantee that you won't like it one bit.

I agree with Joe. Why would you need to persist after a woman???? Why? Either there is something there or there isn't.

Read the Confident Persistence thread linked above.

 

[mikeyb]

I don't think any of these so-called DJ rules are written in stone. My mom didn't like my dad at all when they first met, and he chased her for years. He would wait under the same bridge every day waiting for her to finish class so they could speak. This september, they will have been married happily for 30 years. And don't give me that cr*p about times changing either - I'm sure the DJ Bible applied just as much back then as it does now.

The DJ method is the shotgun approach, and while I do agree that it's more likely to work in the long run, some guys (and some entire cultures) can get by with the sniper mentality.

 

[ProDJ26]

Jitterbug,

let's say you meet women (A)

she's a bombshell, then at the same time you meet lady (B)

You contine to hang out/**** whatever you want with women (A) and forget all about lady (B). Now out of nowhere lady (B) is constantly calling you, emailing oyu, and just won't leave you alone.

I had this happen and let me be the first to say just like we don't wanna be chased by a fugly women, they don't wanna be chased over and over and over. People want what they can't have.

 

[ProDJ26]

I don't think any of these so-called DJ rules are written in stone. My mom didn't like my dad at all when they first met, and he chased her for years. He would wait under the same bridge every day waiting for her to finish class so they could speak. This september, they will have been married happily for 30 years.

The times he grew up in ARE ENTIRELY DIFFERENT FROM NOW

 

[taiyuu_otoko]

all of this can be explained by understanding basic human hot-buttons, as described in Cialdini's "influence". All humans respond favorably to the following: (and when I say 'favorably' I mean do what you want, within reason)

1) reciprocity. when you do something for somebody when it is obviously clear that YOU DO NOT EXPECT ANYTHING IN RETURN, they will feel an unconscious need to reciprocate. This was shown when the hare krisnas started giving out flowers in airports before asking for money. thier income skyrocketed.

2) liking. this sounds like a no brainer, but when you like somebody you tend to want to do things for them. one of the things that causes liking is familiarity. so if you go eat at the same restaurant for a few weeks, and the waitress gets to know you, she is more apt to go out with you. or if you keep asking until she doesn't see you as a stranger.

3) social proof (yep, this is where that comes from). people thing something is important/desireable if other people think it is desireable/imortant only because other people think it is desireable/important. If you come across as needy, you are implying lack of social proof. it looks like nobody wants your sausage. if you come across as confidant and relaxed, like you don't care on eway or the other, it implies that you HAVE social proof, i.e. other people are enjoying your sausage. Note that you can have social proof even if you are by yourself, if you are projecting an alpha atittude.

4) authority. if you seem like you have some authority, people will do what you say. like wearing a suit, speaking with confidence, etc. they did experiments where nurses did crazy things simply because experimenters dressed like doctors told them to.

5) consistence. people tend to act in ways that are in accordance to how they have behaved before. so if you get a girl to do something for you, it will be easier for her to do more for you, or to you.

6) comparison. you will be more attractive next to a 300 pound smelly homeless guy that if you are next to brad pitt. this is also why cute girls that have low self esteem choose to hang out with ugly friends, they get more attention that way.

anyways, I highly recommend reading "Influence" by Cialdini.

 

[taiyuu_otoko]

oh, and by the way, all the above is based on evolution, and is not differentiated by society or culture.

 

[MotownMack]

I agree with Joe. Why would you need to persist after a woman???? Why? Either there is something there or there isn't.

Add my name to this list too.

You will obviously have to put in some effort to attract a woman and overcome some slight initial resistance, but once you reach a point where you're pretty sure the IL is low, why bother? Someone who is aware other options are available to them would not invest too much time here.

Yes, there are cases where someone was persistent, maybe overly so, and/or AFC and it paid off. Those are the exceptions, not the rule.

 

[slaog]

Women do, if YOU do know the difference and can demonstrate that.

Read the Confident Persistence thread linked above.

I've read the article above (http://www.sosuave.com/articles/at/persistence.htm) and found this part:

Confident Persistence (CP) consists of deciding what you want, and going for it... and doing it with a smile, despite the numerous obstacles which you will most likely encounter along the way.

Obstacles could, for example, include things like: she doesn't return your call, she breaks or reschedules the date, she doesn't flirt with you or laugh at your jokes, she's hard to talk to, she seems interested in someone else, and, in general, she doesn't put herself out or go out of the way to convey that she's interested in you.

In other words, the obstacles are simply how a girl would act who is not HIGHLY INTERESTED in you.

Now... when we speak of CP (confident persistance), we're mainly talking about women that don't know you. Women you've just met. Or women that you've never spent any significant amount of time with. We're not talking about women you've known (and had a crush on) for years.

It doesn't make much sense to me. The highlighted part above are the key sentences here. The problem is if you're persistantly after a girl she'll get to know you (against her will)!

I think the article is mainly about not letting low interest bother you and I'm all for positive thinking etc but it doesn't change the fact that from the womans point of view you are continually chasing after her and it's a major turn off.

But as MoTownMack said there are exceptions to rules.

You don't know what you're talking about. It's obvious that you have never had a stalker nor a needy GF. I've had both and I know guys who have. I can guarantee that you won't like it one bit.

I agree that it matters to men but not to the same degree as it matters to women.

 

[Jitterbug]

I think the article is mainly about not letting low interest bother you and I'm all for positive thinking etc but it doesn't change the fact that from the womans point of view you are continually chasing after her and it's a major turn off.

Of course. A smart hunter knows when to stop chasing a shadow and go after a better option, but my point is that chasing (being persistent) is fine if you're not outcome-dependent. Then it becomes a fun game to both (but remember that you still need to lead & control this game). It's not constant chasing either (that's needy or coming on too strong). Sometimes you stop and wander somewhere else pretending you're not that interested. It's a fun dance.

And you need to be persistent if you want high quality girls. Nothing good comes easy, you know.

I think the article is mainly about not letting low interest bother you

It's not "low IL". It's the "perception of low IL", as I understand it. Women are usually a lot more subtle with their IL. Theirs might be high from the start, but they keep it to themselves and it's up to you to lead them to show it. Showing a low IL initially is one kind of sh!t tests they do to weed out the players and the low confident guys who are discouraged by that behaviour.

I agree that it matters to men but not to the same degree as it matters to women.

It's because in most cases, we are not physically threatened by our female stalker or needy GF, whereas women feel physically threatened by theirs. My stalker bothered me and pissed me off, but I didn't fear her.

Jitterbug,

let's say you meet women (A)

she's a bombshell, then at the same time you meet lady (B)

You contine to hang out/**** whatever you want with women (A) and forget all about lady (B). Now out of nowhere lady (B) is constantly calling you, emailing oyu, and just won't leave you alone.

I had this happen and let me be the first to say just like we don't wanna be chased by a fugly women, they don't wanna be chased over and over and over. People want what they can't have.

There's chasing, and there's chasing. It also depends on what you want. If you just want a piece of azz, don't waste too much time. If you're after GF-materials, you need to work it a bit. But it should always be fun:

Confident Persistence (CP) consists of deciding what you want, and going for it... and doing it with a smile, despite the numerous obstacles which you will most likely encounter along the way.

I'd chase, but if it's not fun anymore, I'm getting the hell out.

 

[sosilky]

Culture does influence.


Hmm, maybe we should get together on the board hare and gather up some money. Than we'll send some guy on a trip around the world where he tries to pick up woman everywhere by being needy and desperate. We'll compare the results from all the different cultures and see what happens. Could use a time machine here too!

I think that it is true that in our western culture emphasis is very much put on the individual. meaning we are encouraged to be independent and any thing other then that is considered weak or imature. Where is in other countries such as italy emphasis is put on community, family or relationships. Over there people work together through this thing called life holding back nothing including insecurities in the process. People aren't persecuted for wearing their heart on their sleeve. Both cultres have their good and bad traits.

Their are girls in this country that are conducent to these relationships but once again I think that often men that come to this forum for advice are not seeking advice for that kind of women. It seems to me that unless your just flat out horrible at getting laid, your probably here seeking advice about some so called 21st century independent Sex in the City women or an Attention Wh0re. these are the type of women that leave you when you put your guard down. I was recently told of a women who left her husband because he got cancer and just did not feel attracted to him anymore. What the fvck?! Their are other women that do not leave though, in fact some are drawn closer to you for it. You become their little project just like some of us try to play Captain Save a hoe.

 

[sosilky]

bump