Softball/Baseball Question

[Xenon]

I'm hoping one of you guys can answer this for me. This happened to me in a softball game last night.

I'm playing shortstop. Runners on 1st and 2nd, no outs.

Ground ball is hit to me. The guy on 2nd doesn't run, and stays on 2nd. I tagged him (thinking he was out), and step on 2nd to get the runner advancing from 1st out.

The umpire called the guy standing on 2nd and not advancing to third safe because he didn't leave the base. The guy on 2nd thought he was out, so he started walking off the field. I tagged him again, and only then was he called out.

So, my question is, would he be safe from the original tag because he never left the base? Or is he out, because he is forced to run to 3rd?

 

[PDubb75]

He is out. That ump is terrible.

EDIT: Unless you stepped on 2B before you tagged him. Then the runner from 1B no longer forces him to advance, and he can stay on the base. If you tagged him, THEN stepped on 2B, I go back to my original statement.

 

[Bible_Belt]

A long time ago in the 1980's IBM used to sponsor a tv ad segment called "you make the call." A similar, yet not quite identical scenario was one they presented, in which a runner in a rundown between home and third had returned to third at the same time as a guy on second had advanced to third. Both were standing on third base, and the question was, which runner is out? The rule they applied was that "a runner always has the right to return to his original base."

I think that rule applies in your situation. Despite the runner on first base, the runner on second does not have to run. He can wait until the runner coming from first is standing on the bag with him. Only one runner per base and the previous runner has right of way, so the guy coming from first would be out even if no one got tagged.

 

[Xenon]

He is out. That ump is terrible.

EDIT: Unless you stepped on 2B before you tagged him. Then the runner from 1B no longer forces him to advance, and he can stay on the base. If you tagged him, THEN stepped on 2B, I go back to my original statement.

Nope, definitely tagged him first, then stepped on 2nd.

I think that rule applies in your situation. Despite the runner on first base, the runner on second does not have to run. He can wait until the runner coming from first is standing on the bag with him. Only one runner per base and the previous runner has right of way, so the guy coming from first would be out even if no one got tagged.

I was always taught that if the ball is hit on the ground and there no open bases behind you, you have to run. If it's in the air, you can tag if caught, then run.

In this case, the guy on 2nd doesn't have to run and makes the runner advancing to first automatically out when he reaches 2nd? Or, if both runners stay on their base, the batter is out when he reaches 1st?

 

[PDubb75]

A long time ago in the 1980's IBM used to sponsor a tv ad segment called "you make the call." A similar, yet not quite identical scenario was one they presented, in which a runner in a rundown between home and third had returned to third at the same time as a guy on second had advanced to third. Both were standing on third base, and the question was, which runner is out? The rule they applied was that "a runner always has the right to return to his original base."

I think that rule applies in your situation. Despite the runner on first base, the runner on second does not have to run. He can wait until the runner coming from first is standing on the bag with him. Only one runner per base and the previous runner has right of way, so the guy coming from first would be out even if no one got tagged.

The bold makes absolutely zero sense in a force situation. If that's the case, tagging third base for the force would only count as an out if the runner from first already reached 2B? Not a chance. I was looking for the actual MLB verbiage, but being at work didn't give me much time to find it. This was the closest I could find.

A FORCE PLAY is a play in which a runner legally loses his right to occupy a base by reason of the batter becoming a runner

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/downloads/y2011/Official_Baseball_Rules.pdf


EDIT again: Found this:

7.01 A runner acquires the right to an unoccupied base when he touches it before he is out.
He is then entitled to it until he is put out, or forced to vacate it for another runner legally entitled to that base.

My interpretation of those two rules combined: The runners at 1B and 2B are each entitled to that base. As soon as the batter puts the ball in play to become a runner, he is then entitled to 1B, forcing the man occupying 1B to vacate towards 2B. This then forces the man occupying 2B to vacate toward 3B, as they have both lost entitlement to their base, due to the new runner.

But then again, I'm a Cubs fan. What do I know? haha

 

[Bible_Belt]

7.01 says an "unoccupied base." If the guy on it never left, it would still be occupied.

The other rule says "the batter becoming a runner", which would indicate they are talking about first base. Maybe at first base, the arriving runner has right-of-way, and at second and third, it is the returning runner?

I know that in the rundown situation, the returning runner is safe and the arriving runner is out if they both end up on third. I think that can be applied even in the "force" situation at second. I'm guessing we don't ever see it happen, because there is no advantage to not running when a runner is coming to your base; doing so guarantees an out, and it would be easier for the other team to make a double play.

 

[speed dawg]

Ump was right. If the guy wasn't on the bag and you tagged him, he's out. You should have thrown to 3B to get the force. Funny thing is, once you tag 2B, the guy's no longer a force out.

It would make sense for it to be a force out, but you can't tag someone on a base. If the guy had just stayed there and the guy on 1B had come up and touched 2B, he'd have been out. Same reason why you couldn't have tagged 2B then thrown to 3B, the force out was gone. Have to go to the lead bag first.

Same works for line outs and pop outs, as soon as the catch is made the force is off.

 

[Xenon]

My interpretation of those two rules combined: The runners at 1B and 2B are each entitled to that base. As soon as the batter puts the ball in play to become a runner, he is then entitled to 1B, forcing the man occupying 1B to vacate towards 2B. This then forces the man occupying 2B to vacate toward 3B, as they have both lost entitlement to their base, due to the new runner.

But then again, I'm a Cubs fan. What do I know? haha

That was my initial thought. Sorry about the Cubs. If it makes you feel any better, I'm a Bills fan.

I'm guessing we don't ever see it happen, because there is no advantage to not running when a runner is coming to your base; doing so guarantees an out, and it would be easier for the other team to make a double play.

I had never seen it before, and was thinking "wtf is this guy doing not running?"

Ump was right. If the guy wasn't on the bag and you tagged him, he's out. You should have thrown to 3B to get the force. Funny thing is, once you tag 2B, the guy's no longer a force out.

I was thinking triple play, so I tagged him and stepped on second. Was going to throw to first, but the batter was quick for a big guy and made it down the line faster than I expected.

Interesting discussion about nuances in baseball that you don't see very often (if at all). Thanks for the input guys.