Social masks, seduction gurus and becoming a man that women desire

[Luke Skywalker]

Out of curiosity how far have you got with this girl? the one that you used canned lines on.
Did you kiss her on the first date?
Did you sleep with her?
Did you hold hands?
Has she called you?

There are three girls the canned lines were practised on, and I'm planning to practise on a few friends. The first girl, it was practised on, which I had a date on a prior occasion, seemed to be very amused by the canned lines, and 'naturally' suggested we go and have a picnic on the islands, meaning the convo was going somewhere. Since the first-date was not a canned routine, I cant make an evaluation, but the second-date was, and she wants to go out again a third time.

The second girl, well, I dont know if there was any chemistry to start with. Sometimes I think the canned lines merely enhance what's already there as opposed to building chemistry. She was European Hand-shaked at the beginning of the date, and hug-and-cheek-kissed when I walked her to her car. I have yet to hear a response from her to see what her feelings are.

The last girl seemed to have a better 'chemistry-rapport' than the one above, but there was no kino-touch component, although the structured date fulfilled it's purpose, where it took 5 canned routines to get her to start clicking romantically and talking about something she thinks is romantic.
She appears to have had a 'bad experience' in a prior relationship and thinks all men are liars. Well - hey, canned lines can only take you so far, there are problem girls out there. Seems she would like to go out again.

What did not happen:
- Not too much money was spent on a date that could have collapsed.
- Not much time was invested in a date - and nothing stupid or offensive was said.
- It was not a waste of time socialising with someone without bringing up any romantic or sexual convo into the equation resulting in another convoluted 4 hour "who can make me fall asleep first" contest.

Sometimes you also have to look at the negative side too.

********

I dont know where you are driving at, but I think what you described above, and even as the books say, has to do more with chemistry than anything else, and that is either there or it isn't.

If I were to make a chemistry scale from 1-10 of those three girl's it would be as follows: Anti-Chemistry goes on a scale of -10 - 0. This goes in line with 'conectivity'

Girl #1: Chemistry 7 on a scale of 1-10.

Girl #2: Chemistry 2 on a scale of 1-10

Girl #3 Chemistry 6 on a scale of 1-10.

If you are going to have that type of play on the first date, I think you'll need a 9+ as far as chemistry is concerned.

Now, the problem with internet dating is you have no idea what type of chemistry of the person you are meeting online. You could have the best rapport online, and oflline it could sort of crash when you find out there is no chemistry. Especially, if you are not getting a volume of interested people and have to settle for whatever attention you do get, just to get your feet wet, then you cant have any major expectations on that.

So, ask me that question again, when I sarge offline and connect with someone where there is a natural chemistry with that's like 9+, and I'll answer, that whether or not I use a canned routine, we may even be kissing before we sit down on the date. I may have meet high chemistry girls offline, but I never contact-closed them due to contact-close phobia.

 

[AngelusPUA]

Do what you want man....

It's good that the first chick wants a 3d date, hope it works out.

Maybe I won't see you here in 1 month bi*tching about not being able to get a girl into bed, but I won’t hold my breath.

 

[SamePendo]

You need to stop talking to yourself Angelus (that what seems you are doing when arguing with people who aren't even listening).

Good post btw

 

[AngelusPUA]

You need to stop talking to yourself Angelus (that what seems you are doing when arguing with people who aren't even listening).

Good post btw

I'm argumentative, one of my last major flaws that I am trying to rid myself of.

Thanks man

 

[Tom Juan]

Yeah, well I didn't care to read this. I skimmed over the first sentence and fell asleep. So, yeah...

 

[AngelusPUA]

Yeah, well I didn't care to read this. I skimmed over the first sentence and fell asleep. So, yeah...

Ok.... this from the guy who made this post not 20 min ago

See? Now that's just a stupid post. This is the reason why alot of people are complaining about and leaving this site. Nobody gives any good advice anymore. It would better the site if people would just refrain from making comments like this.

Anyway I have to learn to not be argumentative so post what you will.... I don't care

 

[Charlie Gordon]

I agree with a lot of what you are saying, I don’t agree that lying to yourself for long enough will make you become that lie.

"a guy could lose weight, shave his head completely, wear some platform shoes, and get a job... but I have doubts that making all of those changes will really affect his success with women"

I agree but becoming a man that women desire I.E. charming, witty, classy is a different story.

Just out of curiosity are you speaking from experience or theory?

There are highly successful men with excellent careers and radiant health who cannot seem to meet women, and there are others who can meet women, but cannot talk to women; furthermore, there are men who can find and meet women, and possess many of the attributes you have discussed, however, they never experience what many a person outside of the community refers to as... chemistry.

This forum has changed tremendously in over six years. A lot of cutting edge information prior to the milenium is now old hat; however, one major shift in the sosuave paradigm that has some people confused entails the notion that self-improvement equals success with women. While self-improvement may contribute to success with women, do not accept the aforementioned argument at face value: it simply is not entirely correct. See previous paragraph.

Self-improvement is a wonderful thing. Being charming and witty are desirable attributes, and in order for them to help you become successful with women, they should be cultivated in the context of interactions with women. These are skills that are developed. Essentially, what you're saying is that if you have these skills, that you will be better with women. We agree.

A lot of men are not born with these characteristics and need to adopt them. In the beginning, they may need a boost and will look to the ideas and behaviors of others to sort of guide them in the direction of being funny, being witty, being charming and polite, etc. The men who will improve, will find themselves modeling their behaviors after those of someone more successful... or they could hand Tyler or Mystery or Ross a month salary and be schooled on what works and what does not in workshop format. I am not advocating workshops, but I am drawing a comparison between commercial "seduction" products and services and someone who simply has friends with game and chooses to observe them in social interaction.

The men who stick to their old behaviors and fail to model more effective behaviors are doomed to recurrent failure, even if they increase their bench seventy pounds or become a better conversationalist with grandma or their buddies in the bowling league (contexts presumably devoid of interaction with women).


I suppose modeling behavior is a step in the direction of using canned lines and speed seduction... or it could not be, but some men lead busy lives and want to learn the most from each trip to the bar and each attempt to pick up a woman. Rather then spend eternity enduring trial and error, they elect to take shortcuts, or don a mask if you will. Ultimately, we all would like to feel spontaneous, confident, and powerful in our interactions with women, but those feelings have to grow out of somewhere. It is a learning process. Someone who starts off wearing masks and asking for advice on naming two dogs may progress to someone is confident to come up with his own mannerisms and devices that make him charming and entertaining.

 

[AngelusPUA]

There are highly successful men with excellent careers and radiant health who cannot seem to meet women, and there are others who can meet women, but cannot talk to women; furthermore, there are men who can find and meet women, and possess many of the attributes you have discussed, however, they never experience what many a person outside of the community refers to as... chemistry.

I'm not talking about having an excellent career and having radiant health, my point is if you develop all of the attributes that a woman seeks in a man you will become 10x more successful than a guy who sits here reading some seduction book. If you develop all the attributes that women would want in a "perfect" man, women will in turn find you irresistible.

If instead you are a little insecure AFC who approaches women, says "hi" and tries to make jokes because David DeAngelo told you so, you will end up like the 80% of guys here who have no idea about women and are probably still virgins.

I'm sure 'sarging' helps but my point is instead of inflicting all that mental torture on yourself and wasting all that time you can be out perfecting yourself. If you become what women want then there is no need for 'sarging' or 'C+F' or 'canned lines'. You are just naturally seductive and any woman you meet will be drawn to you sexually.

I still agree with a lot of what you said though but you are avoiding my question, are you talking from theory or from experience?

 

[Mitch_Mustain]

There is a difference between wearing a social mask and changing who you are. What I mean is a person can learn to change who he is and become smarter, funnier, and more confident and more successful with women. The problem lies with people who read e-books, go out faking confidence, faking conversational skills and using canned lines.

They think that the seduction gurus book is the holy grail of dating, everything they ever needed and just by acting confident, saying “Hi” to a women , negging her a few times and using C+F the HB10 will jump into their bed. WAKE UP it’s just and illusion, most seduction Gurus will have you believe that learning how to be great with women is easy, why? Because they want your money. They are business men they will show you something that seems simple and easy and you will throw money their way.

It happens all the time If you’ve ever seen early morning infomercials they always come up with all these versatile solutions for modern living. A toaster that cooks bread 10x faster, a juice machine that juices 1 orange per second. That’s what most of these seduction gurus sell you, they tell you you need to go out and do street approaches, you need to learn how to talk, you need to learn how to hypnotize women, NLP and all this other nonsense. They sell you a fantasy for their own fu*kin profit and who can blame them, we all want to make money.

You need to become the man that women desire, you have to have to cultivate all the attributes that attract women and dispel all the ones that don’t.

What do women want?

A guy that is handsome and/or Sexy
Can't do much about being attractive, either you are or you're not. You can obviously work out to get a more muscular, toned body and eat right. Get a haircut that suits you, shave or grow a moustache you really need to experiment, ask some female friends if you look better with a goatee or with spikey hair instead of a shaved head, you get the idea.

A guy that knows how to dress
Shopping at chain stores is not your best bet, going for Versace is out of some people budgets but in every mall there is at least one store that has good cloths that are more expensive than those of chain stores. This is not always the best place to shop because in terms of getting into high class clubs these cloths won't cut it but if you’re on a budget and want to look good, go for it. What you think looks good on you often doesn’t, it’s a good idea to take a female shopping with you as she can help you pick out cloths that suit you or ask the guy/girl that works in the store. They might try to sell you the most expensive stuff but usually they are ok.

Wit
Wit is difficult to work on and it comes with experience, if you talk with witty people you will slowly start to pick it up. It is also a good idea to watch some comedians Eddie Murphy for example. I read a book called "comedy writing secrets" that really helped me cultivate my wit. Wit is very important; a smart man uses wit to dominate you (AMOG) so it is beneficial for you to be witty. You can read books and listen to comedians but still I say the best way to become Witty is by experience, you need to get out there and socialize. Women find wit irresistible……

Confidence
This is a hard one and it takes a long time to become totally confident, my first step would be to take a self defense class. If you can find one do a UFC course because if you get into a street fight you’re not going to use fancy karate moves it’s going to be hard and fast. When you know how to defend yourself you will feel a lot more confident in social situations. You also should go to the gym and try to get in shape (If you aren’t already). Not only does exercise raise confidence because of the obvious physical benefits but working out gives you a sense of accomplishment which sitting in front of a computer doesn’t, this sense of accomplishment translates into confidence. Wearing good cloths, learning how to speak virtually everything you do to benefit yourself will increase your confidence. Your friends also play a huge role in how confident you are, if you have friends that are constantly putting you down because they themselves aren’t confident then you need to cut them off. You need to have positive friend that appreciate you, not people that put you down, I read a study that stated ‘We begin to mirror the people we associate ourselves with’, so if you want to become confident stay away from non confident people.

Class
What can I say about class? It all got to do with your hobbies, what you wear, the people you associate yourself with, how you talk. Take a look at some of the classy guys throughout history real and fictional, James Bond, Dean Martin, Frank Sinatra. Classy guys drink an $80 bottle of wine while normal guys drink a $10, classy guys wear classy cloths while normal wear t-shirts.

Charm
-Smile: If you don’t smile you’re not charming, simple
-Let people talk: You just listen and let people tell you about themselves, biggest mistake guys make on a date is to talk about themselves too much. Let the girl talk about everything and anything all you have to do is listen and obviously carry the conversation along.
-Compliment do not flatter: The difference between a compliment and flattery is that compliments have no hidden agenda, It’s just a genuine compliment and it doesn’t make the person feel uncomfortable. Do not compliment somebody unless you really mean it, women especially have a good radar for bullsh*t. Another dating mistake guys make is over complimenting, you come off as fake and desperate, give the girl one sincere compliment and don’t make a big deal of it.
-Selflessness: The secret to charm is to be selfless. You are not being charming because you want something in return; you are being charming because that’s who you are. Do not give compliments with the expectation of receiving a compliment in return; do not listen with the expectation of being listened to.
-Eye contact: Straight forward, make sure you don’t stare.
-Confidence: I know these so called Gurus say to use ****iness but I say use confidence it’s different to ****iness. ****iness means you have something to prove, confidence means you have nothing to prove because you already know everything you need to know.
-Genuine interest: You need to have a real interest in getting to know people, don’t ask questions not wanting to hear the answers you need to have a curiosity about the person.

Danger
Women like a man with an edge of danger, go sky diving, base jump, rock climb, bungee jump do something that makes you unique.

Mystery
-Don’t give her your daily itinerary: Basically don’t tell her what you are going to do all day tomorrow; your life is yours you don’t need to tell her everything.
-Be vague: There are times when you can be vague about yourself, for instance when a girl asks me what I do for work I tell her “that’s my business”. I don’t do it in a rude way I just say it normally, sometimes they will drop it sometimes they will try and guess but don’t give in.
-Don’t always answer her calls: You should lead a busy life so in reality you shouldn’t have time to answer her calls anyway. If she asks why you didn’t answer tell her “I was busy” and don’t elaborate, she doesn’t need to know everything you do.

Ok this advice you state is all fine and dandy and I agree with most of it but the funny thing is that you're basically still telling us to do the same sh*t the "GURUS" advise. In a nutshell you're just confusing people more than they should be. If you think your advice is golden then give us an example of how you worked out your equation to succeed with a woman...seriously, i'm curious

 

[AngelusPUA]

Ok this advice you state is all fine and dandy and I agree with most of it but the funny thing is that you're basically still telling us to do the same sh*t the "GURUS" advise. In a nutshell you're just confusing people more than they should be. If you think your advice is golden then give us an example of how you worked out your equation to succeed with a woman...seriously, i'm curious

I'm not telling you to use:

-Canned lines
-C+F
-Hypnosis
-NLP
-Neg's

I'm not saying thing like:

-Don't pay for dinner
-Never buy her flowers
-Approach 1000 women a week in the hope of sleeping with one, or at the every least getting over your fear of approaching

I'm not suggesting that people:

-Lie to themselves
-Pretend to be something they are not
-Fracture their already weak ego

So you got some balls telling me that I am saying the same things as the gurus.

What do you want to know? You want me to tell you my story?

 

[Mitch_Mustain]

actually yes!

i'm not at all dissing your ideas. I totally agree with it but I notice that SOOOOO many people post the same sh*t in the tips forums that you've stated but I have a feeling you actually have some weight with what you posted rather than having read it somewhere else and rephrasing it..

Overall I believe that all the techniques and methodology the gurus preach is actually helpful to those who have absolutely no hope with women otherwise. the tips should be used as a sort of training wheels to actually discovering that you have the potential to attract pretty girls with your own unique personality, this is how it went down for me and I truly thank the PUAs and gurus that I've read from because although I nowadays I dont use their advice word for word and play by play, through the experience i've learned how to convey my charming and attractive side.

 

[AngelusPUA]

I thank them to, they helped be change but I think that you can cut through all the bull**** and simply just work on confidence and the other attributes I mentioned and then everything they say will just come naturally. All their techniques won’t be something you fake, they will just be you and not only will you be successful with women you will be successful in life. So instead of being somebody you are not and using all those techniques half of which are useless, bullsh*t anyway all you have to do is become what women want.

A seduction Guru won’t tell you this……….. Why? Because if he does he will be selling a 10 page e-book and you cannot sell a 10 page e-book for $50 a copy. So what do they do? They fill their e-book with pages and pages of canned lines and useless techniques. They sell us an illusion and then you get people running up to girls trying to do some fancy magic tricks or trying to hypnotize her with NLP.

I SAY CUT THROUGH THE BULLSH*T

All you need to get women is:

-Looks
-Wit
-Confidence
-Class
-Charm
-Danger
-Mystery
-Style

So throw away all those books, instead of using hypnosis, some special lines and faking your way into bed, get straight to the point and become a MAN.

Honestly I couldn't be bothered typing out my story but I will give you a short version, I have never been in love and I have never had my heart broken. I came to Sosuave because I wanted to get laid and I stayed because I loved women and I wanted more of them and better quality. I started getting better and I started making some money so I moved to another country when I turned 18. I made new friends and I experience real life not life in a westernized country I mean I experienced real life. I learnt more about women and what they want in 1 month there than I learnt in 18 years in Australia.

I fell more in love with women than I was before and I learnt everything there was to know now about them. I used this knowledge to change myself, with the help of my new friends and with my love of women I turned myself into what women wanted. That’s when I realized a lot of these Gurus are frauds and most of them give out a lot of useless information.

 

[Charlie Gordon]

my point is if you develop all of the attributes that a woman seeks in a man you will become 10x more successful than a guy who sits here reading some seduction book.

I agree. We have a tendancy to get stuck reading too much material and not spending enough time in the field.

If you develop all the attributes that women would want in a "perfect" man, women will in turn find you irresistible.

If instead you are a little insecure AFC who approaches women, says "hi" and tries to make jokes because David DeAngelo told you so, you will end up like the 80% of guys here who have no idea about women and are probably still virgins.

More than 80

I'm sure 'sarging' helps but my point is instead of inflicting all that mental torture on yourself and wasting all that time you can be out perfecting yourself. If you become what women want then there is no need for 'sarging' or 'C+F' or 'canned lines'. You are just naturally seductive and any woman you meet will be drawn to you sexually.

There is a lot of clamour in the community about "naturals," who learned to be witty and charming without the help of an online seduction guru. They save a lot of time by virtue of not worrying about this stuff.

Does everyone here have the ability to have it as easy as a natural? Not sure. Some variables can be manipulated more than others.

I think the reason this advice sells so well and that so many men are receptive to double your dating, speed seduction, anihillation, rsd, abc, qrs, etc, is because they have such limited TIME to devote to this area of their life. They refuse to compromise who they are and how they behave and what passtimes they enjoy in order to get laid. They want results, fast. They use techniques. They work, sometimes. The person has gotten laid and gained confidence. Great. They screw up? Then it's back to the drawing board.

Whether someone wants to spend the rest of their life uttering trance phrases to seduce women or being a genuine person whom women love and respect... well, that's up to them.

I won't put someone down for coming to the community, learning a few tricks of the trade, and using them to gain short-term success. Some of the latest products and seminars seem to stress social skills development. These sort of foster more of a long-term committment to self-improvement - in the context of attracting women. Regarding your suggestions, these methods may not be too far off the mark; however, they require a conscious effort to become better with women as opposed to putting the focus exclusively on self.

I still agree with a lot of what you said though but... are you talking from theory or from experience?

I don't believe in theories. None of this stuff, to my knowledge, is empirically evaluated. I call on my own experiences and those of people with whom I have remained in close association.

I've tried a lot of this stuff. Like so many others, I would like to just be myself and happen upon success instead of putting in an enormous effort or reverting to methods and techniques. I am a very busy person and there are many more interesting things that I can do with my time than to read about seduction. The bottom line, however, is that I want to be more attractive to women and to succeed in environments and under conditions that have previously hosted failures.

 

[AngelusPUA]

See that’s what I'm getting at improving all those attributes I spoke about takes less time than reading a seduction book and sarging, it more effective and it helps in all aspects of life not just women.

I feel sorry for guys who sit at home and read books all day, there is no huge secret to women they just want the perfect man so it is easier to become the perfect man than to use all these techniques.

Goodluck, I hope that you do jsut happen uppon success....

 

[markjames]

Very well said I agree with the topic starter.

mark
www.seductionbb.com

 

[Charlie Gordon]

Very well said I agree with the topic starter.

Too bad he's a fake,


but with an imagination like his, he could become a pickup artist. I'm not sure why he was banned. I'm sure there are many more people in the community who lie to put themselves over.

There are so many of us guys out here who are just not going to change our personalities overnight. We can read all of the flowery, promising posts on sosuave and come up with nothing but a happy feeling that rapidly disintegrates as soon as we set foot out the door. We are not going to change everything about ourselves to appeal more to women (especially those of us with little to no free time) but we certainly are willing to change a few things and maybe adopt a few behaviors that will help us become successful.

We might read a book on attraction and seduction, learn to tell stories, or experiment with some of the material that is discussed on ASF. We cannot just snap our fingers and become this entirely confident, witty, well dressed, tall, dark and handsome man that we were never before. We cannot wake up tomorrow morning a different person than we are today, but we can start to make small changes to help us reach our goal... and on this forum, the goal is often "meeting women" or "getting a date" or "talking my girlfriend and her best friend into a threesome." That's what this place is about. We can reach our accomplishments one step at a time. Whether we're introverted, soft-spoken, dorky, physically unappealing, inexperienced, or doing well for ourselves but seeking improvement, we come here for advice. Solid, concrete advice.

We can keep reading inspirational posts that advertise "Be a Man" and "Display Charisma" but then, when we leave our houses, apartments, and dormitories to go out to the bars, we realize that nothing has changed. The music is loud, the women have shields, and the other men are confident or at least drunk and aggressive. We wonder if and how we should approach the cute girl at the bar, or maybe we're doing so poorly that we start looking at the okay looking girl more towards the corner and curse ourselves after a few seconds, when she realizes that we have been staring at her. Maybe you're more advanced that this but you still have room for improvement.

How do you implement wit? How do you implement Be a Man? Maybe, with practice and success, we can witness the evolution of these self-attributes, but as long as the pick up scene is what it is, we might as well adopt behaviors (NOT IDEALS) that will make us successful. Maybe to some, these behaviors seem fake and contrived; they might not appear as spontaneous to someone who frequents these forums and subscribes to "Be a Man" - type posts, but if doing what you do makes the difference in allowing you to meet a woman or to find a fulfilling relationship, then by all means, stick with it and ignore people who talk out the other end.