So apparently I don’t have any charisma, charm, magnetism etc.

[Maxtro]

Something happened today that shined some light on why I have done so poorly with women.

I’m in my social dance class dancing with a girl who is nice but basically stone-faced. I talk to her a little but she’s just not into it. When we switch partners I look at her, and she’s laughing and joking with the new guy. WTF? I thought she may have been sick or tired. And I was right, she was sick and tired of me.

So I look down the line of girls I danced with and each girl seems to be having more fun with the guy she is with now then she had with me, including the one girl in the class who thought I may have had a chance with.

I’ve casually noticed it before, but girls really do seem to react better to other guys then they do to me. I don’t know if it’s due to the way I act or what I saw, how I say it or everything combined. All I know is that there is something wrong about how I interact with women.

Somehow I didn’t acquire the skills that most guys pick up. So here I am trying to attract and date women when I have the skill level of a 12 year old.

That would help explain why there is such a small number of girls that I meet each year that I think I have a connection with, and then each girl proceeds to reject me. I think what was really happening was that those girls had really warm and open personalities and they made up for what I was lacking. Of course they reject me, because I mistook their openness as interest. There never was a connection, it was just her being outgoing, which she is with every guy. Then when I meet a girl whose not as warm but basically nice to everybody and they become somewhat cold toward me.

Figuring this out took a big hit to my self-esteem, then I got a little relief from knowing that I am doing something wrong. And now I’m down again because I don’t know if I have any hope at all.

 

[ChalengeGuyFan]

So apparently I don’t have any charisma, charm, magnetism either.

I do have them when I'm around others that I perceive as equals or "below me" (such an ugly way to say it; you get what I mean).
It is then when I feel crazy and open and magnetic and it works.


But when I'm with girls...
I too got depressed when I realized this and kept wondering when and where I failed while growing up. I wish there was a way to rewind life.



I think that we need to give up any kind of introspection and go full out crazy.
Do not analyze anything, do not think about the side-effects of our actions, do not think about the future, not about the past and just do.
I think that we need mindless, full-time action with zero thinking.

I'd give this a try, but I cannot stop thinking and analyzing.

 

[blueline]

Neither of you guys have failed. You haven't been extroverted enough and you haven't tried to get with girls you perceived as below you in terms of attractiveness. Trust me, you will get some of those girls.

 

[zekko]

So I look down the line of girls I danced with and each girl seems to be having more fun with the guy she is with now then she had with me,

On the one hand, noticing this type of thing is a bad mindset to put yourself in. Because every time you see things going against you, you're going to put yourself in this same frame of mind where you are "inferior" to the other guys.

But on the other hand, it's good that you're recognizing a problem so that maybe you can take steps to fix it and improve. Of course no one here knows you so we don't have any way of knowing what you need to work on. You probably need to loosen up and have more fun.

It's great that you're taking this dance class. All these interactions add to your experience, and you can learn from it.

I think what was really happening was that those girls had really warm and open personalities and they made up for what I was lacking. Of course they reject me, because I mistook their openness as interest.

Sounds like you need to work on being more warm and open yourself.

 

[blueline]

Here you go. Here's my answer to all of your issues getting laid. Follow it exactly and something might happen.

You are thinking too much about it. I literally tell women I've been on prozac for 10 yrs and it doesn't stop me from getting laid. I've never been told I'm a positive person, but I have been told I'm very thoughtful, which I find to be a much deeper compliment. I used to think I was too weird to get super hot chicks, but once you get to know some of them, you find out some are weirder and more painfully self-unaware than you'd ever imagine.

Talk about school if you want, I do it all the time. Just realize the conversation is not what gets you laid most of the time. Sometimes you do meet girls that like to keep friends with benefits and that is one situation where I guess it can be helpful with some girls. You can't charm some girl into liking you; the girls that like you are there for you to lose. The easiest way to find out if a girl likes you is to gaze into her eyes you talk to her. If she doesn't reciprocate, just walk away. However, if she does reciprocate, just stay there and keep talking to her. If you guys have been doing this for 15 minutes, she's probably started randomly finding excuses to touch you if she isn't shy. One of the best indicators of whether or not some chick you just met likes you is if she'll hover around you at a party after you stop talking to her. If you do this with enough people some night, you might meet a girl that likes you.

Screen for attraction first, a connection later. If you want to get laid, physical attraction is the most important variable. You cannot generate attraction outside of passive means (looks, income, style, etc).

 

[Groovy]

You don't have charisma or charm because you lack self esteem.

Every guy is naturally charismatic and charming. Think about it.

If you are happy, and this is your job to be, then you will feel light, energetic, powerful- the smoothness will flow in your body, you will have an aura that relaxes everyone around you, your personality will shine and everyone will look up to you!

Do things to make yourself happy! It may be a mental problem, a physical one, or both!

As in now, you are starting to believe that there is something wrong with you! It is mental. But it can also be physical: You aren't feeling well body-wise. Just a example for a random person: He doesn't do exercise enough, so his body doesn't have endorphins to be happy. But if he did, he would be in the zone! That's fly. It is contagious, people around you will feel great too, they will respond, want to laugh and all! Try to feel GOOD, things will flow naturally!

What if this is your case? You were feeling down, so was the girl. But the other guy was with his groove on and so the girl opened up with him.

Friendship is trading positive energy... If you don't have it, making friends will be harder...

Just from your post, I think you are a cool dude maxtro. "I thought she may have been sick or tired. And I was right, she was sick and tired of me." That is a good written sentence man! Why not write ones that are inspiring and motivating? That would be awesome! You also go to dance school. That seems great, I am impressed!

It's a cycle. You heard about the avalanche effect? So start! Do things to feel good. That is how you gain self esteem. Little by little. Don't stop! Listen to music or watch a movie. You'll get there... Do you remember the last time you were "in the zone?" Things were so easy, you'd laugh at that post. You'd say: What is this guy thinking? Things are so easy, it's not even funny. Haha, he needs to lighten up and not take himself so seriously! Be your best self. Go!!

 

[davewe]

A friend reminded me of this bit of philosophy that I have used in my past but forgot about. It's important for any social interaction or in fact for anything in life. "Act as if this may be the last time you will ever interact with that person."

You meet a new girl. As you talk, your mind wanders and you think: what should I say next; when should I ask for her number; what do I do when I call her; how many dates do we have before we f**k. STOP ALL OF THAT. Talk to her (or in your case dance with her) as if this may be the last time she will have the pleasure of your company.

That attitude will force you to be present in the interaction and make a connection with her. And if she still doesn't respond to you - she's not the one for you.

One other suggestion. You should be interacting with a woman to determine whether you like her - not the other way around. If you dance with 5 girls using the attitude previously described and connect with none of them - then they ain't for you. If they connect with someone else - don't be upset - it's good for them.

Focus on the present interaction not the past ones that "failed" or the future ones that haven't yet occured.

 

[pinhas]

^Great post Groovy^

 

[Korrupt]

You don't have charisma or charm because you lack self esteem.

Every guy is naturally charismatic and charming. Think about it.

If you are happy, and this is your job to be, then you will feel light, energetic, powerful- the smoothness will flow in your body, you will have an aura that relaxes everyone around you, your personality will shine and everyone will look up to you!

Do things to make yourself happy! It may be a mental problem, a physical one, or both!

As in now, you are starting to believe that there is something wrong with you! It is mental. But it can also be physical: You aren't feeling well body-wise. Just a example for a random person: He doesn't do exercise enough, so his body doesn't have endorphins to be happy. But if he did, he would be in the zone! That's fly. It is contagious, people around you will feel great too, they will respond, want to laugh and all! Try to feel GOOD, things will flow naturally!

What if this is your case? You were feeling down, so was the girl. But the other guy was with his groove on and so the girl opened up with him.

Friendship is trading positive energy... If you don't have it, making friends will be harder...

Just from your post, I think you are a cool dude maxtro. "I thought she may have been sick or tired. And I was right, she was sick and tired of me." That is a good written sentence man! Why not write ones that are inspiring and motivating? That would be awesome! You also go to dance school. That seems great, I am impressed!

It's a cycle. You heard about the avalanche effect? So start! Do things to feel good. That is how you gain self esteem. Little by little. Don't stop! Listen to music or watch a movie. You'll get there... Do you remember the last time you were "in the zone?" Things were so easy, you'd laugh at that post. You'd say: What is this guy thinking? Things are so easy, it's not even funny. Haha, he needs to lighten up and not take himself so seriously! Be your best self. Go!!

Great post here and just to follow up I want to ask you something. An example... Okay, so your life now if depressing and your self-esteem is low? Put yourself in this spot. You're rich, never have to work, have women all over you, male friends you hang out with all the time and you love life. If this were you, do you think you'd be confident, cool and charismatic or depressed with low self-esteem? Of course you'd be feeling great because you FEEL that your life is awesome. It's a mental problem; if you feel like your life is sh*t it will be sh*t but if you think you are awesome and your life is awesome it will be. Think about it.

 

[Kerpal]

Neither of you guys have failed. You haven't been extroverted enough and you haven't tried to get with girls you perceived as below you in terms of attractiveness. Trust me, you will get some of those girls.

Just wondering, why would we want to get with girls we're not attracted to? I'd rather masturbate to porn.

 

[Deadly_Ripped]

Something really simple to try if you haven't already:

Give your usual smile that you'd flash a girl when you first meet her, but DO NOT do it in front of a mirror. Do it next to a mirror looking away from it.

Keep that smile and turn and face a mirror. You might be surprised that how your face feels isn't quite how it looks. You may think that you're flashing a sly smile, but it may look creepy. You may think you look friendly, but maybe your eyes are too wide and you look crazed.

You'll only know for sure if you try your smile without looking in a mirror and then hold a mirror up or turn to one.

I had to do this and I was occasionally surprised by what I saw looking back at me. It has helped me generate consistent and graded smiles and looks that I can use when I feel a certain way, being confident that I look emotionally exactly as intended.

 

[Mike32ct]

Welcome back Max.

As far as fighting the negativity, I like affirmations. They aren't a magic bullet, but they can help your inner game. This will eventually reflect outwards and give you a more positive, fun vibe.

The first time I experimented with them was about 10 years ago. I had written five of them that were something like:

"I love talking to women."
"I'm a fun, sexy guy that women love."

Basically, you write positive, present tense statements to help create the reality you want. You can read them aloud multiple times in you room if you're alone. If not, you can write them out many times each like some nun is punishing you in Catholic school lol.

Anyway, at the time, I was VERY shy and quiet. After about two months of doing those affirmations 10x each and 3x per day, I went out one night with my brother and another guy friend. We were waiting in line to get into a concert. To this day, I don't know how I did it, but I just found myself in a conversation with three women in the line. We were having a great conversation, and they were giggling. A while later, my friend asked, "What's gotten into Mike lol?" I couldn't explain how I did it. I can't prove it, but I believe the positive affirmations displaced some of the negativity in my mind so I could actually function. I had never "gamed" anyone before. It was shocking, but exciting.

Of course, affirmations are NOT a substitute for real world experience, but it does help. It's great that you are doing dancing. Definitely continue that so that you can become even more comfortable around girls.

As for having to watch the other guy getting more positive attention from the girl(s), we've all been there. There are three stages of that in my opinion:

Stage 1:

"I see the other guy getting all the girls. I hate that a*&h*le. Why can't those b*tches be into me?"

In this stage, work as a hard as you can to IGNORE what the other guys are doing and focus exclusively on YOUR interactions with the girls. Watching his "success" will only bring you down at this stage.

State 2:

"That dude is doing pretty well. That's ok. I have my moments too. Let's see what he's doing. Maybe I can learn something new."

In this state, you can continue to run your game while also being a bit observant and maybe learning some new things.

Stage 3:

You are the guy that gets the girls. Other guys hate you lol.


Anyway, back to your story... You are probably correct that the other guy had a more fun, charismatic vibe. So you definitely need to work on your inner game to boost YOUR vibe.

I don't know that this other guy looks like, but that could be a factor too. Girls get all giggly and intrigued by a guy they find good looking. He can say and do the dumbest sh*t, and they will love it. But don't worry about this part since we have no control over other guys' looks.

 

[ARrocket]

Just wondering, why would we want to get with girls we're not attracted to? I'd rather masturbate to porn.

Bullsh!t.

If you were a guy who couldn't get the girls you ARE attracted to, you would MUCH rather get the ones a step below then not get any at all.

If you're a virgin, there is an unquantifiable amount of confidence to gain by banging any girl pretty much.

Maxtro may not be a virgin, but mentally, he is. He needs to go through the entire process of meeting a girl, attracting said girl, isolating her, seducing her, and sexing her. This could be a very fast process (party, bar, etc), or a slower on (dance class). Either way, once that happens, his entire outlook will change, and it doesn't really matter who she is IMO.

It will be easier the less attractive she is. By all means don't go bang HB2, but if she's even somewhat decent, it will be a huge boon to your game.

 

[Thundernuts]

Maxtro, to put your scenario into a decent comparison, you seem like a child that just discovered what death is. I mean its grim but true.

Man when i was dancing back in high school, the same thing happened to me, and i didn't even realize what the problem was until a few years later. Women are very emotional creatures, what ever emotion you emit, thats what they are going to pickup, sounds to me like they didn't like it.

My problem was i could never see the good things, and when i did i made excuses to avoid them because i never fit in with others. With women, there is attraction, connection, and aggression. You can develop each of them without even knowing what your doing. You can also kill them without knowing what your doing.

Don't try and be perfect. Improve your skills, your understanding, and your attitude. The rest will fall into place all there own.

I know im qouting pook, but damnit its one of the best things I've heard in a long time. Believe and you shall become.

 

[Kerpal]

Bullsh!t.

If you were a guy who couldn't get the girls you ARE attracted to, you would MUCH rather get the ones a step below then not get any at all.

I know from experience. I prefer masturbating to porn to ****ing girls that I'm not very attracted to.

 

[ARrocket]

I know from experience. I prefer masturbating to porn to ****ing girls that I'm not very attracted to.

I'm assuming you are able to get laid a decent amount by girls that you are attracted to. Now try putting yourself in the shoes of someone who cannot.

It's like a less-dramatic version of telling someone dying of starvation that you prefer to skip lunch rather than eating a can of beets.

 

[Kerpal]

I'm assuming you are able to get laid a decent amount by girls that you are attracted to. Now try putting yourself in the shoes of someone who cannot.

You assume incorrectly. I tried doing the ugly girl thing and working my way up, didn't really work out too well, I'd rather masturbate to porn than keep ****ing ugly girls.

 

[Maxtro]

Yeah, I am very aware that my self-esteem has a huge part in this. Though right now it’s not very strong, and is mainly based on what I’m doing at the moment and if there is a girl involved and how she is reacting to me. In other words it’s an ego boost when I’m doing salsa and the girl seems to be enjoying it. And it sucks when I’m trying to learn a new dance but I’m just not getting it and I can tell that the girl’s becoming annoyed.

Hmm, I think I had a point for that issue.

On the one hand, noticing this type of thing is a bad mindset to put yourself in. Because every time you see things going against you, you're going to put yourself in this same frame of mind where you are "inferior" to the other guys.

But on the other hand, it's good that you're recognizing a problem so that maybe you can take steps to fix it and improve. Of course no one here knows you so we don't have any way of knowing what you need to work on. You probably need to loosen up and have more fun.

It's definitely a mixed bag. But as old as I am, I can't keep being ignorant.

You're right that nobody can really see how I interact with girls and can't really tell me what I need to work on. And that's what I need the most. All I can do is try to convey what I think is going on and get some feedback.

What I really need is to "wear a wire" and have a team in a van out back observing my interactions with women and giving me tips on what to say.

It's great that you're taking this dance class. All these interactions add to your experience, and you can learn from it.

Sounds like you need to work on being more warm and open yourself.

The forced interaction with girls is one reason why I take a dance class every semester. If I didn't have this class, I might go a few days or more without talking to any women.

As for being more warm and open myself. How? Pretty often I'm standing face to face with a girl for two minutes and I have no idea what to say to her. So I say something random and boring about the dance. Every now and then I run into a girl who is so outgoing or something and then conversations just happen or we seem to have a really fun time together.

Neither of you guys have failed. You haven't been extroverted enough and you haven't tried to get with girls you perceived as below you in terms of attractiveness. Trust me, you will get some of those girls.

I am trying to force myself to be extroverted and it's not easy.

As for chasing girls that are below me in attractiveness, I kind of already do that. I'd go after any girl that is height/weight proportionate and is at least cute.

As long as she meets my minimum standards what really attracts me to a girl is her personality and how she reacts to me.

I would gladly pass over a girl whose a 10 on the outside but a 5 inside for a girl whose a 6 on the outside but an 8 inside.

Though if you look over my history, you'll see that I don't get girls, period.

Here you go. Here's my answer to all of your issues getting laid. Follow it exactly and something might happen.

You are thinking too much about it. I literally tell women I've been on prozac for 10 yrs and it doesn't stop me from getting laid. I've never been told I'm a positive person, but I have been told I'm very thoughtful, which I find to be a much deeper compliment. I used to think I was too weird to get super hot chicks, but once you get to know some of them, you find out some are weirder and more painfully self-unaware than you'd ever imagine.

I actually think I'm approaching this from a different angle than you were. I've always thought to myself that I was a normal guy and never wanted to admit that I'm weird. I try really hard to fit in. I believed that I should be able to get girls. I thought I was better than the guys wearing Horde T-shirts. But now I'm starting to think that I am too weird to get women despite how I look or try to act.

It's funny that you mentioned girls being weird. I run into many weird girls in Japanese class and anime club etc, but the issue is that a girl being weird or awkward isn't really a negative for her. And those girls aren't any easier to get than normal girls; I've been rejected by two of them.

Talk about school if you want, I do it all the time. Just realize the conversation is not what gets you laid most of the time. Sometimes you do meet girls that like to keep friends with benefits and that is one situation where I guess it can be helpful with some girls. You can't charm some girl into liking you; the girls that like you are there for you to lose. The easiest way to find out if a girl likes you is to gaze into her eyes you talk to her. If she doesn't reciprocate, just walk away. However, if she does reciprocate, just stay there and keep talking to her. If you guys have been doing this for 15 minutes, she's probably started randomly finding excuses to touch you if she isn't shy. One of the best indicators of whether or not some chick you just met likes you is if she'll hover around you at a party after you stop talking to her. If you do this with enough people some night, you might meet a girl that likes you.

That's a very interesting technique. So it's not about the conversation? 15 minutes is a very long period of time to spend with a girl if you don't really know what to say.

Screen for attraction first, a connection later. If you want to get laid, physical attraction is the most important variable. You cannot generate attraction outside of passive means (looks, income, style, etc).

That's where I get messed up. I know I'm not attractive. At 5'6 I'm too short and I'm not that good looking. So I need to use my words to overcome the negatives about me. Though when I don't even know what to say, it's easy to see why I struggle so much.

You don't have charisma or charm because you lack self esteem.

Every guy is naturally charismatic and charming. Think about it.

I really don't know about that. Honestly, I don't have any experience charming girls. Maybe every guys is naturally charismatic and charming, while I'm just an oddball.

What if this is your case? You were feeling down, so was the girl. But the other guy was with his groove on and so the girl opened up with him.

I think what happened was that I was having trouble with the new dance and wasn't happy with how I was doing. When I'm struggling I depend on the girl for encouragement and for her to explain it to me, since girls usually pick up the moves much faster than I do. The girl that I was thinking about, didn't do that at all. So my first thought was that she's just a bitch. But when I saw how she was with the other guy, I started thinking that it's my fault for making her that way.

Friendship is trading positive energy... If you don't have it, making friends will be harder...

Positive energy. I really have been lacking it these days. In fact, I now seem to spend most of my day being angry and/or sad.

Making friends is hard enough, attracting women is mission impossible.

A friend reminded me of this bit of philosophy that I have used in my past but forgot about. It's important for any social interaction or in fact for anything in life. "Act as if this may be the last time you will ever interact with that person."

That's an interesting idea. I will have to give it some serious thought.

One other suggestion. You should be interacting with a woman to determine whether you like her - not the other way around.

I wish I could do that; and I would if every girl I have ever liked didn't reject me. I've learned that it's not important if I like a girl. I'm not the one who has the power to decide.

Great post here and just to follow up I want to ask you something. An example... Okay, so your life now if depressing and your self-esteem is low? Put yourself in this spot. You're rich, never have to work, have women all over you, male friends you hang out with all the time and you love life. If this were you, do you think you'd be confident, cool and charismatic or depressed with low self-esteem? Of course you'd be feeling great because you FEEL that your life is awesome. It's a mental problem; if you feel like your life is sh*t it will be sh*t but if you think you are awesome and your life is awesome it will be. Think about it.

Of course I'd feel confident, cool and charismatic. But I think you're doing a chicken and egg thing. I can't make myself feel great if my life is shit. Except for the brief moments of joy I get to experience, my life is a total drag.

I have tried CBT for several months, and there is just no way to change my thinking to be counter to what I experience in life. I really wish I knew how to do it. I wonder if that is why people turn to drugs. So they can see life as how they want it to be, and now how it really is.

 

[Thundernuts]

I wish I could do that; and I would if every girl I have ever liked didn't reject me. I've learned that it's not important if I like a girl. I'm not the one who has the power to decide.QUOTE]

Well thats your problem, your going into the situation thinking it doesn't matter what you do, the woman is either going to accept you or reject you. Its more in your hands, not to mention but your the prize not her, would you really want to date a girl that is a weird anime chick, or some cheerleader who can't spell. You are the one making a choice.

I was at a barbeque yesterday and i was talking to some spanish chick, but i had no intention of asking her out, or getting her number or anything, i just didn't want to. And then i realised, its whenever i don't give a **** if they turn me down or whatever, thats when my game is at my best. You are the one making the choice, not her.

 

[JustLurk]

Have you tried increasing testosterone by changing diet and lifestyle?